|
On May 23 2010 07:35 collegeBored wrote:
its safe to assume anyone remotely competent wont have 10 larva sitting around so this saves you 1 button press to select larva and a couple of the same button presses to build a unit. if that makes a difference, you have far more serious problems to worry about Not to mention you don't even need a macro to rapidly create units even if you did suck at keeping your larvae count low.
|
Selecing idle SCV + building supply depot = 0.5 seconds
Selecting larvas from 3 hatcheries and holding d to build all drones = 1 second
Building MMM from 6 barracks and 1 starport = 3 seconds
Using macro to do anything = 0.1 seconds
There, I just proved that using macros is advantageous and you can make them a lot more complicated than this (add SCV production to the above).
|
Macros are already forbidden in tournaments, the ones played in a lan (connected to bnet 2.0 of course) where you have to physically be there to take part in the event. I don't think it's that much of an issue, i considered the possibility of making macros, but i don't think the advantage is real and the potential to mess you up is huge (what if you want to build 3 mutas and with the other 3 larvas zerglings ? are you going to make 100 macros for each case ?).
|
On May 23 2010 08:40 Freezard wrote:Selecing idle SCV + building supply depot = 0.5 seconds Selecting larvas from 3 hatcheries and holding d to build all drones = 1 second Building MMM from 6 barracks and 1 starport = 3 secondsUsing macro to do anything = 0.1 seconds There, I just proved that using macros is advantageous and you can make them a lot more complicated than this (add SCV production to the above). Macroing the first example you would shave off (using your arbitrary numbers) .4 seconds. Uh oh look out diamond league, here I come! In your second example, you would need need to macro 9 additional production buttons on top of the 9 you still need for one at a time production. Your third example is just ridiculous. The number of marines, marauders and medivacs you need will vary greatly depending on your current army, your opponents army, and your available resources.
|
On May 23 2010 09:04 Nutshell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 08:40 Freezard wrote:Selecing idle SCV + building supply depot = 0.5 seconds Selecting larvas from 3 hatcheries and holding d to build all drones = 1 second Building MMM from 6 barracks and 1 starport = 3 secondsUsing macro to do anything = 0.1 seconds There, I just proved that using macros is advantageous and you can make them a lot more complicated than this (add SCV production to the above). Macroing the first example you would shave off (using your arbitrary numbers) .4 seconds. Uh oh look out diamond league, here I come! In your second example, you would need need to macro 9 additional production buttons on top of the 9 you still need for one at a time production. Your third example is just ridiculous. The number of marines, marauders and medivacs you need will vary greatly depending on your current army, your opponents army, and your available resources.
It's not just arbitrary numbers I did tests as you can see on example 3 video... and that's just an example right. Actually 2-3 barracks + reactor starport works wonders in almost any 2v2 game, so if you use the same build a lot then why not use macros.
And nope you don't need 9 additional macros, if you want 4 drones then build 4 drones? If you want pure drones from every hatchery, press the macro button. You have yet to prove anything which goes faster doing manually than using macro. This:
On May 23 2010 04:50 Nutshell wrote:Show nested quote + Of course you can produce shitloads of units in SC2 without macros, but the point is it takes much more time doing it than pressing a single button. No it doesn't, try it.
|
On May 22 2010 20:58 Kashll wrote:
Lol come on. I mean of course for terrible people it matters, but it won't matter at all at high levels of play since people can macro competently anyways.
They cant macro INSTANTLY tho and this severly lowers the amount of mechanical skill it would need at high levels to play.,
|
Actually 2-3 barracks + reactor starport works wonders in almost any 2v2 game, so if you use the same build a lot then why not use macros. How often will you need exactly X marines, Y marauders and Z medivacs plus have enough resources for all of them? Your needs change with the game. Are you gonna make 700 macros for every situation? You'll need a macro for 10 marines, a macro for 6 marines and 3 marauders, A macro for 0 marines 6 marauders and 3 medivacs, so on and so forth. OR you could just do it the easy default way which is more flexible.
Same goes for zerg. Yeah you can make a macro that spams drones, another that spams roaches, another that spams zerglings, another that spams overlords, etc. and then learn all those extra binds in addition to the one-by-one production keys you'll still need, OR you could just use the hold key method, which is virtually just as quick and easy, but vastly more flexible.
Making all these situational macros is just more work for you with no concrete benefit. It sounds great on paper, but it's largely impractical. If there were a macro that somehow bugged the game out to allow zerglings to hop up cliffs, or something that helped you retain full resources when canceling a building, then there would be an issue requiring attention. But none of these macros are doing anything like that
|
On May 23 2010 02:43 Freezard wrote:Select idle SCV, build supply depot 1 clickSelect idle SCV B S Click 4 clicksThere you go, want any more examples just tell me 
No one has posted a macro that is game changing yet. And lol at building supply depots with a macro. Sooooo hard to execute! How about one that reminds you to build one before you get supply blocked? Then you might be on to something.
|
On May 23 2010 10:26 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 02:43 Freezard wrote:Select idle SCV, build supply depot 1 clickSelect idle SCV B S Click 4 clicksThere you go, want any more examples just tell me No one has posted a macro that is game changing yet. And lol at building supply depots with a macro. Sooooo hard to execute! How about one that reminds you to build one before you get supply blocked? Then you might be on to something.
Someone posted a micro marauder macro. You could do that with every unit. Perfect micro sounds pretty game changing to me. Anyway, the possibilities are infinite. I'm not going to think about every possibility because I'm not the one who's using them.
|
On May 23 2010 10:26 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 02:43 Freezard wrote:Select idle SCV, build supply depot 1 clickSelect idle SCV B S Click 4 clicksThere you go, want any more examples just tell me No one has posted a macro that is game changing yet. And lol at building supply depots with a macro. Sooooo hard to execute! How about one that reminds you to build one before you get supply blocked? Then you might be on to something.
That's also not right
if you had one selected idle scv and build supply depot all as one command it would build instantly where ever your mouse is which is not ideal as you can't place it too well.
Realistically the macro would be just selected idle scv bs, and you have to click
2 but in reality why would you want a macro just for idle scv you would want one for all scvs so it would just be bs
meaning 3 clicks vs 4
People think a macro = a bot lol but frankly they can only be applied in special situations and you give up a certain amount of control to use it.
So it might be a bit faster then just learning how to do it on the keyboard but otherwise pointless to include macros for a rts game, unless the macro acts more like a bot something that is not available normally from a logitech mouse or keyboard, where it has timings or position.
|
My personal conclusion on How cheated is a gaming mouse with macro?: Potentially devastatingly so, especially in the lower tiers. However, it won't be noticeable in the upper tiers which makes it all the more sinister and all the more cheat-friendly.
|
The significance of macros playing a large roll diminishes at higher tiers IMO
|
On May 23 2010 08:40 Freezard wrote:Selecing idle SCV + building supply depot = 0.5 seconds Selecting larvas from 3 hatcheries and holding d to build all drones = 1 second Building MMM from 6 barracks and 1 starport = 3 secondsUsing macro to do anything = 0.1 seconds There, I just proved that using macros is advantageous and you can make them a lot more complicated than this (add SCV production to the above).
Disagree. How many buttons you have on your mouse? How many fingers? Why should it take you 3 seconds to press the same button a bunch of times (with potentially tab in between). Why would any of that require you to go back to your base? He did the mbs in .2 seconds. Then he waited another second to build something from a starport. That probably took a total of .5 seconds.
Using a macro might help in some situations but not by much...
|
Edit: Oops, double post but this one is on a different topic than my previous so please don't rape me 
One thing I would like to be part of the ui is for me to be able to hold control and click one of the units to build. Essentially this would be a "build until error" command, which would spam the build button for that unit until one of the following conditions is met:
1.) No idle production facilities capable of building selected unit.
2.) No more minerals/gas.
3.) No supply.
I miss that element of BW (at least with zerg) where I make 6 zerglings pop instantly on 4-pool, or more practically 9 mutas popping on 3-hatch spire.
I thought that part of the broodwar UI was awesome, and was sorely disappointed in the SC2 UI for this particular reason.
I don't think this is particularly unfair simply because the amount of time it takes to, say, press m 9 times is very small, but I don't want carpal tunnel if I can avoid it ;P
|
On May 23 2010 11:11 love1another wrote:Edit: Oops, double post but this one is on a different topic than my previous so please don't rape me One thing I would like to be part of the ui is for me to be able to hold control and click one of the units to build. Essentially this would be a "build until error" command, which would spam the build button for that unit until one of the following conditions is met: 1.) No idle production facilities capable of building selected unit. 2.) No more minerals/gas. 3.) No supply. I miss that element of BW (at least with zerg) where I make 6 zerglings pop instantly on 4-pool, or more practically 9 mutas popping on 3-hatch spire. I thought that part of the broodwar UI was awesome, and was sorely disappointed in the SC2 UI for this particular reason. I don't think this is particularly unfair simply because the amount of time it takes to, say, press m 9 times is very small, but I don't want carpal tunnel if I can avoid it ;P Broken record here, but you can do that in SC2. Just hold down the hotkey and it spams the units instantly.
|
On May 23 2010 10:52 Freezard wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2010 10:26 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On May 23 2010 02:43 Freezard wrote:Select idle SCV, build supply depot 1 clickSelect idle SCV B S Click 4 clicksThere you go, want any more examples just tell me No one has posted a macro that is game changing yet. And lol at building supply depots with a macro. Sooooo hard to execute! How about one that reminds you to build one before you get supply blocked? Then you might be on to something. Someone posted a micro marauder macro. You could do that with every unit. Perfect micro sounds pretty game changing to me. Anyway, the possibilities are infinite. I'm not going to think about every possibility because I'm not the one who's using them.
You have no idea what the hell you're talking about, man. Have you ever even owned one of these mice? I have one and you can not do that, at all.
|
Taking the macro idea to an extreme, let say that I have part of my army always in group 1, my pylon where I and reenforcing from in screen store f5, and I build a macro.
The macro does the following in combat, selects warp gates, flips screen to pylon, builds full set of units, lets say I make in interface-able so that when I start the marco holding a certain key tells it how many warp gates I have. Now when it is done, which with no lag should take about a second it, selects group 1, and pops me back into the fight allowing me to keep microing.
The reason why macros are considered cheating across competitive game play is because it allows a player to gain an advantage not through his play skill but through a program. Any play which can't be done if you are sitting on a brand new computer is something you should avoid if you want to play competitive especially at any kind of LAN type tourny.
The arguments about macros not being adaptable really don't apply as shown through out history programmers can write code to do just about anything, and the current advancement in automated tech.
|
I don't see a problem with resetting hotkeys to it, but at the point where you can have it play the game for you i think it ruins the game for everyone else who plays you, and for you.
|
Well you can probably do that actually. (the marauder micro thing)
click-delay-h-click-delay, and so on.
Problem is: Its still not very useful
Lets say you macro it to do it 10 times in a row. Then, you start kiting with your marauders, and they die, cose your opponent had speedlings, or whatever. Now, for the next 20 seconds, at regular intervals, you will be clicking randomly on the screen, and pressing h.
Sounds fun doesnt it? But doesnt sound like a huge advantage.
Ok, So you do it a few less times. Now your kiting around with your marauders, get dropped. Tell your SCVs to move out of the way, but it presses H, and then selects a random building for you. Huge advantage there.
So lets say that instead, you macro it to do it only once. Click-delay-h-click
Now in order to do it perfectly, you would need to time your second macro press perfectly after the delay. So in essence, you still need to be looking at your marauders, and to have perfect timing. So again, where is the huge advantage.
About the whole botting idea: In game like WoW, botting is banned. But its not banned because of the semi compatitive stuff like raid, or pvp, but mostly cose it can be used to farm gold. No one in their right mind would want to use a bot in PvP 
Same thing in SC. True, in copper league, maybe executing a 6 pool perfectly would be good. But then after that, you still need to micro your zerglings, and if your opponent scouts, you, you die. Having a set in stone build that you cannot possibly deviate from, is not really an advantage, no matter what way you look at it.
I would say the line between cheating and playing, comes into play when a programm allows you to do something in the game that would otherwise not be possible. Making your units faster, making them do more damage, giving you access to information that you normally would not have, all that kind of stuff.
On the other hand, taking something that is possible in the game, and doing it more efficiently, that seems perfectly good. A hotkey is an example of that. You would normally want to select a building. By using a hotkey, you are able to select that building faster, and more efficiently, with less keypresses. A macro, if you can actually find one that actually makes you do something more efficiently, would also fall in that category.
I think most ppl who have a problem with that kind of stuff think like this guuy here:
Sometimes I just dont know what to think, cuz to be honest I love the game but looking at this stuff makes me sad and confuses me a lot. I mean, we are getting really close to the point where SC2 will be a game "no skills-required".
Autosplit, MBS,endless waypoints, multiple tasks, auto army spread and stuff, Smart Casting, big numbers of units (armies) on ONE hotkey, no need to be that accurate when grabbing units when building/using spells an such, and now a Macro Mouse??? Geez
See, the thing is how you define "skill".
Is your skill defined by how fast you can press a button sequence?
Or do you think there might be more to it?
We are moving more and more towards a system where the actual decisions that you make in the game, matter more than fighting against the UI and the commands, to have the game actually carry out your decisions.
Would you rather have a game where deciding on what upgrade when, what units you build, or when and where to do a drop are the key components? Or maybe you would rather have something, where executing a perfect worker split is the main focus?
Both of them can be considered "skill". The first one would revolve around strategy, and the other one, involves 2 players wanting to do exactly the same thing, but one of them being a little better at executing it, due to the speed of his fingers.
Should your strategy (and intelligence) be the main focus, along with defeating your opponent? Creativity?
Or would you rather have APM, precision, and repetitive tasks executed as perfectly as possible be the main focus?
Gz to you if you can execute a perfect worker split.
But personally, if I am going to devote time and effort in a game, I would much rather focus on finding good strategies, counters, playing the metagame, being creative, and so on, rather than executing a worker split a million times in a row until I can do it perfectly, and then moving on to doing a few thousand hours of repetitive unit micro training until I can do it perfectly.
If I have to chose, I would rather have my mind competing against my opponent's, instead of having my fingerspeed competing against his.
|
Or would you rather have APM, precision, and repetitive tasks executed as perfectly as possible be the main focus?
While APM does show how fast you can click, typically it is used to show how well people multitask. I get get 400 APM by spamming 1,2 but that isn't going to do any good as we all know.
Yes there should be a separation between the people who actually spend time practicing execution and those who don't. I can try and pull Nony's Pheonix build as much as I want but he is going to execute it better, for two reason, he has practiced more, and is a much higher skilled player. Closing off leaks in your play should be a goal, which isn't achieved by getting someone else to write code to do the task which you can't perfect.
And to be honest a perfect worker split isn't really that hard to do 90% of the time, but why should I be able to write a piece of code to do it 100% of the time with a single button press, or how about you have it start when the screen pixel changes from the load into the start, that wouldn't be that hard either.
The issue with macros is they remove the physical skill required to preform at top levels. We aren't playing chess where only your decision making matters.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
