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I don't think I really agree with the Roach change, for whatever it's worth. I thought the Roach was pretty much fine the way it was at the moment...if it was too strong in the late game (which I can see), then it should have been nerfed stat-wise.
The thing is, I really liked the idea of a 1 supply tank unit that tanks damage by being incredibly numerous. It felt very Zerg-y to me. If anything, I would have made the Roach even weaker stats-wise, and kept them at one supply. But I guess we'll see how this works out...
It's the Marauder that desperately needs a nerf. I really don't see why Blizzard feels free to continuously nerf every single other unit in the game except the Marauder. Yes, Terran had problems on the US server, and yes, the Marauder is a key part of many Terran strategies...but that's the point, really. When the Marauder nerf finally comes through, then I will be content with the balance of the game.
This change could always be reversed, though; but if it is, it will be alongside another Roach nerf, to balance things out. I'm really curious to see how all this plays out.
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As much as the Roach nerf bothers me, I'm hoping it is just a preemptive move to make them more interesting. Maybe we'll be getting their above ground Regen back or something?
But, for now, it sucks.
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Thanks fathead, for elaborating so nicely on what I was saying.
All these things essentially make Zerg very frustrating to play. They're still a good race, and they win games, but they're frustrating and just don't feel properly synergised at all.
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I'm pretty sure blizzard realizes the roach change is a substantial one. That's probably why they put it into this patch to see what kind of additions they need to add to zerg in the next patch. We all know ultralisk, overseer, and infestors are getting new stuff so depending on how zerg plays out they will probably adjust their numbers accordingly.
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if anyone else has just seen the qxc vs slush, it shows the full effect of the roach patch
as you watch qxc macros really well and has keeps constant agression, but that is beside the point. slush goes for a raoch ling and hydra army and maxes along with qxc, when the fight goes dwon, slush is raped,
slush goes on to say during the lobby for next game, taht even tho he was maxed, he felt so weak. Day[9] also comments multiple times that he found it very odd how slush was at a such a high supply when it seemed like he had no army.
bottom line, this roach nerf seems to really b affecting the late game zerg army as they cant seem to get that critical mass, that was made zerg wat it is.
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On May 14 2010 02:52 Lollersauce wrote:
So basically, roaches which already got rolled by marauders and immortals are just not that good anymore?
edit: I'm fine with nerfing roaches, but where's the counterpart? Because that's going to be zerg falling way behind right there. Not like lings can compensate...
Protoss players were forced to tech to immortal 4 min into a game just to deal with a tier 1 unit thats dirt cheap and cost only 1 man power. I think the nerf was more to balance ZvP where early roach rushes were a pain in the ass to deal with for Protoss. Most average/casual Protoss players were gettin' rickrolled regularly by early roach builds. I personally would've like to see a buff to the zealot to deal with it, but this should help alittle for protoss players.
And as for lings not compensating, you need to watch some replays of TheLittleOne when playing zerg, he will beat pro toss/terran players with just lings and queens...
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On May 14 2010 13:49 Oodama wrote:
if anyone else has just seen the qxc vs slush, it shows the full effect of the roach patch
as you watch qxc macros really well and has keeps constant agression, but that is beside the point. slush goes for a raoch ling and hydra army and maxes along with qxc, when the fight goes dwon, slush is raped,
slush goes on to say during the lobby for next game, taht even tho he was maxed, he felt so weak. Day[9] also comments multiple times that he found it very odd how slush was at a such a high supply when it seemed like he had no army.
bottom line, this roach nerf seems to really b affecting the late game zerg army as they cant seem to get that critical mass, that was made zerg wat it is.
Have a link to that? I love to watch anything day[9] comments on.
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On May 14 2010 13:49 Oodama wrote:
if anyone else has just seen the qxc vs slush, it shows the full effect of the roach patch
as you watch qxc macros really well and has keeps constant agression, but that is beside the point. slush goes for a raoch ling and hydra army and maxes along with qxc, when the fight goes dwon, slush is raped,
slush goes on to say during the lobby for next game, taht even tho he was maxed, he felt so weak. Day[9] also comments multiple times that he found it very odd how slush was at a such a high supply when it seemed like he had no army.
bottom line, this roach nerf seems to really b affecting the late game zerg army as they cant seem to get that critical mass, that was made zerg wat it is.
in game 6, slush surrounds qxc with hydra and burrowed roaches flank but still got completely raped, all terran did was 1a, this is just wrong
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Really really dont like zerg this patch. I am optimistic in thinking that they are just observing how zerg plays out like this for now while they see what kind of additions they need to the race. Zerg is definitely in need of a rework. I like this change at least partially if it means making roach less viable as long as other units are more viable. Kind of sucks that they want us to play with the continual nerfs without any adjustments though, but I hope its for the best.
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On May 14 2010 13:49 Oodama wrote:
if anyone else has just seen the qxc vs slush, it shows the full effect of the roach patch
as you watch qxc macros really well and has keeps constant agression, but that is beside the point. slush goes for a raoch ling and hydra army and maxes along with qxc, when the fight goes dwon, slush is raped,
slush goes on to say during the lobby for next game, taht even tho he was maxed, he felt so weak. Day[9] also comments multiple times that he found it very odd how slush was at a such a high supply when it seemed like he had no army.
bottom line, this roach nerf seems to really b affecting the late game zerg army as they cant seem to get that critical mass, that was made zerg wat it is.
it seemed more like slush got outmacro'd
I mean for large parts of the game, esp the game on scrap station, slush had like 1100+ minerals
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On May 14 2010 13:50 Denarius Jay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 02:52 Lollersauce wrote:
So basically, roaches which already got rolled by marauders and immortals are just not that good anymore?
edit: I'm fine with nerfing roaches, but where's the counterpart? Because that's going to be zerg falling way behind right there. Not like lings can compensate... Protoss players were forced to tech to immortal 4 min into a game just to deal with a tier 1 unit thats dirt cheap and cost only 1 man power. I think the nerf was more to balance ZvP where early roach rushes were a pain in the ass to deal with for Protoss. Most average/casual Protoss players were gettin' rickrolled regularly by early roach builds. I personally would've like to see a buff to the zealot to deal with it, but this should help alittle for protoss players. And as for lings not compensating, you need to watch some replays of TheLittleOne when playing zerg, he will beat pro toss/terran players with just lings and queens...
May be true but if we are to go by this logic we should also do something about the "fact" that zerg has fast tech to lair and get hydra den in order to deal with voidrays,which in both cases you could use spore crawlers / photon cannons to hold it off derived from both races ground unit tech building.
Both which comes down to scouting something I have to say protoss have an advantage over zerg with (no walls)
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On May 14 2010 13:54 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 13:49 Oodama wrote:
if anyone else has just seen the qxc vs slush, it shows the full effect of the roach patch
as you watch qxc macros really well and has keeps constant agression, but that is beside the point. slush goes for a raoch ling and hydra army and maxes along with qxc, when the fight goes dwon, slush is raped,
slush goes on to say during the lobby for next game, taht even tho he was maxed, he felt so weak. Day[9] also comments multiple times that he found it very odd how slush was at a such a high supply when it seemed like he had no army.
bottom line, this roach nerf seems to really b affecting the late game zerg army as they cant seem to get that critical mass, that was made zerg wat it is. it seemed more like slush got outmacro'd I mean for large parts of the game, esp the game on scrap station, slush had like 1100+ minerals
yes u could say that slush was out macro'd in the game, but the point is, they were close to maxed in the games at time of fight, and slush's army was just not large enough to stop the ball of qxc,
day[9] makes a comment saying when he saw slushes army he thought it was just 123ish but when he checked the army tab he was maxed. then there is also slush as i posted above saying how he felt that his own army was to weak/small when he got up to max supply
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On May 14 2010 12:41 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 12:37 Subversion wrote:
Thats my issue.
You can hardly scout without Lairtech, so its difficult to know if T or P is going for banshee/void cheese, so you just have to rush for lair asap to prevent it; which leaves you vulnerable.
I don't know, you can setup some queens and spores to hold it off, but its just frustrating feeling so vulnerable all the time. sac an overlord? Besides, zerg has the best anti-air. Hydras are just plain amazing at anti-air to the point that even units like carriers are just completely useless vs zerg. Even if it takes you a little tech to get to, at least you have that anti-air. Protoss is still without any solid anti-air
but now we need more overlords to accomodate roaches. so we cant afford to just sac them
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On May 14 2010 13:51 fathead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 13:49 Oodama wrote:
if anyone else has just seen the qxc vs slush, it shows the full effect of the roach patch
as you watch qxc macros really well and has keeps constant agression, but that is beside the point. slush goes for a raoch ling and hydra army and maxes along with qxc, when the fight goes dwon, slush is raped,
slush goes on to say during the lobby for next game, taht even tho he was maxed, he felt so weak. Day[9] also comments multiple times that he found it very odd how slush was at a such a high supply when it seemed like he had no army.
bottom line, this roach nerf seems to really b affecting the late game zerg army as they cant seem to get that critical mass, that was made zerg wat it is. Have a link to that? I love to watch anything day[9] comments on.
no i dont sorry :D, was played live jsut a few min ago.
day[9] did say vods would be up and u can watch them, cant remember if he said they b on youtube or on the mlg site
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Here's what I'm thinking now, given these three points:
- The patch was relatively low on # of changes.
- The ladder reset being eminent.
- It's difficult to really know the impact of 2 supply roaches.
They wanted to see what impact the roach change has without players adjusting to multiple things at once, convoluting the ebb and flow of race balance so far that the meta game shifts.
Then, wipe the ladder in unison with applying the next patch, which will include the already planned Zerg/Ultra changes adjusted to what data they get from these next few days. That way, Zerg players are only freaking out for a day or two and they get the much needed focus testing that a hard to gauge but wide reaching change like this deserves. I might even go so far as to say the ladder reset was put in place specifically for this focus test to ease the anger many Zerg players are feeling. It was only announced right before the patch, so it was fresh in everybody's mind that the ladders will be reset when we saw what the patch was.
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On May 14 2010 14:08 baeracaed wrote:
Here's what I'm thinking now, given these three points:
- The patch was relatively low on # of changes.
- The ladder reset being eminent.
- It's difficult to really know the impact of 2 supply roaches.
They wanted to see what impact the roach change has without players adjusting to multiple things at once, convoluting the ebb and flow of race balance so far that the meta game shifts.
Then, wipe the ladder in unison with applying the next patch, which will include the already planned Zerg/Ultra changes adjusted to what data they get from these next few days. That way, Zerg players are only freaking out for a day or two and they get the much needed focus testing that a hard to gauge but wide reaching change like this deserves. I might even go so far as to say the ladder reset was put in place specifically for this focus test to ease the anger many Zerg players are feeling. It was only announced right before the patch, so it was fresh in everybody's mind that the ladders will be reset when we saw what the patch was.
Zerg...buffs?!! BLASPHEMER
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I hope you're right about this Baeracaed 
I hope the ultralisk change will not result in a unique size reduction. Something has to be done about the armor type in the game.
Some heavy gas unit should be able to hard counter them, like immortals, tanks, or infestors.
But low gaz units like marauders shouldn't be able to hard counter them.
Maybe his armor upgrade in the ultralisk den should reduce selective units damage (like the raven drone) by some % (marauders and stalkers i think). Maybe it should nullify their +dmg vs high armor type.
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I play new Thor now and despite I like radius reduction the model scale reduction made it looking more like goliath on steroids rather than "Mighty Thor" Isn't possible to reduce radius without messing with model? Units might move under Thor arm guns as it was so high.
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On May 14 2010 14:08 baeracaed wrote:
Here's what I'm thinking now, given these three points:
- The patch was relatively low on # of changes.
- The ladder reset being eminent.
- It's difficult to really know the impact of 2 supply roaches.
They wanted to see what impact the roach change has without players adjusting to multiple things at once, convoluting the ebb and flow of race balance so far that the meta game shifts.
Then, wipe the ladder in unison with applying the next patch, which will include the already planned Zerg/Ultra changes adjusted to what data they get from these next few days. That way, Zerg players are only freaking out for a day or two and they get the much needed focus testing that a hard to gauge but wide reaching change like this deserves. I might even go so far as to say the ladder reset was put in place specifically for this focus test to ease the anger many Zerg players are feeling. It was only announced right before the patch, so it was fresh in everybody's mind that the ladders will be reset when we saw what the patch was.
ya u got a really good point there and i hope your right
cuz from just pyaing a few games with the new patch and watching some games the roach prob, mid game is insaine and really weird compared to actaul army size.
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