EPTPatch 12 - Changes and Discussion - Page 60
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Fleeben
United States12 Posts
On May 14 2010 12:33 RoarMan wrote: Yea, it really does feel like Zerg has too much pressure to go to Lair tech to counter any type of air unit. Def man, it's always bothered me how those VRs/shees bust in my base before I can manage to get lair, or a queen, or a spore. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
You can hardly scout without Lairtech, so its difficult to know if T or P is going for banshee/void cheese, so you just have to rush for lair asap to prevent it; which leaves you vulnerable. I don't know, you can setup some queens and spores to hold it off, but its just frustrating feeling so vulnerable all the time. | ||
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Rokk
United States425 Posts
On May 14 2010 12:27 fuzzehbunneh wrote: thats completely different seeing as zerglings cant attack air. they can attack ground. its to show how useless zerglings are The same thing would have probably happened to marines. The reason that happened was because they do less than 1 damage per attack since the ultra is 3/3 with it's own armor upgrade and lings do base 5 unupgraded. It was a cool video to watch that proves absolutely nothing. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On May 14 2010 12:37 Subversion wrote: Thats my issue. You can hardly scout without Lairtech, so its difficult to know if T or P is going for banshee/void cheese, so you just have to rush for lair asap to prevent it; which leaves you vulnerable. I don't know, you can setup some queens and spores to hold it off, but its just frustrating feeling so vulnerable all the time. sac an overlord? Besides, zerg has the best anti-air. Hydras are just plain amazing at anti-air to the point that even units like carriers are just completely useless vs zerg. Even if it takes you a little tech to get to, at least you have that anti-air. Protoss is still without any solid anti-air | ||
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Thenas
Sweden107 Posts
On May 14 2010 11:52 Fruscainte wrote: Wait, Roaches become a 2 supply unit, relatively low cost, highly effective against pretty much all ground units, has no AA whatsoever, and is an integral part of almost every army setup? Where have I seen this before? + Show Spoiler + *Cough* Marauders *Cough* Obviously underpowered and wont ever be used again in any builds. *rolleyes* You can't reason like that, and here is why. 1. To make supply as Zerg you need to sacrifice a larva which limits your early game units. 2. Marauder has a 6.666667ish dps vs anything not armored and 13.333ish that vs armored vs roaches which has a constant 8 3 They have 6 range and so so more units are able to fire if they are balled up, they don't need to get as close and they get the first attack vs more units and are so able to kite more. 4 Researchable stimpack, increasing movement and attack speed at the los of 20 hp, hp loss negated by 7 energy from medivac. 5 Roaches have 145 hp vs the marauders 125, but again this is negated by medivacs and negated once again by organic carapace (I find that medicavs are more effective than organic carapace but I haven't tried it out), I also wanna add that organic carapace often comes into play later than medivacs which plays quite a huge roll 6 They both have normal speed, roaches have fast if researced. 7 Roaches can burrow when reseached and regains 5 hp/sec while burrowed as well as move while doing so also this if researched. All this contribute to how the diffrent units play and how well they function in the diffrent strages of the game, one can not just say that just because terran has a unit that excels vs armored ground is 2 supply that the only viable armored unit in the zerg arsenal should have the same supply. Also notice that I did not take into account the following unit specific upgrades concussive shells 50/50[60] (requires techlab 50/25[25]) organic carapace 150/150[110] (requires Burrow 100/100[100]), glial reconstitution 100/100[110], tunneling claws 150/150[110] (requires Burrow 100/100[100]) Overall I just want to say that I think this will hit zerg players quite hard in the early game as they now have to produce more overlords and in turn slowing down their early eco / unit produciton / teching as from what I've seen they mostly use roaches early game to get their eco going and tech up to lair. | ||
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wintergt
Belgium1335 Posts
I really have to go dig up those posts where I suggested this long ago and was met with replies "THAT WILL BREAK ZERG, NEVERRR!!" Love the changes. And I always had this crash when quitting the game, should be fixed now too. | ||
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Fleeben
United States12 Posts
On May 14 2010 12:46 Thenas wrote: You can't reason like that, and here is why. 1. To make supply as Zerg you need to sacrifice a larva which limits your early game units. 2. Marauder has a 6.666667ish dps vs anything not armored and 13.333ish that vs armored vs roaches which has a constant 8 3 They have 6 range and so so more units are able to fire if they are balled up, they don't need to get as close and they get the first attack vs more units and are so able to kite more. 4 Researchable stimpack, increasing movement and attack speed at the los of 20 hp, hp loss negated by 7 energy from medivac. 5 Roaches have 145 hp vs the marauders 125, but again this is negated by medivacs and negated once again by organic carapace (I find that medicavs are more effective than organic carapace but I haven't tried it out), I also wanna add that organic carapace often comes into play later than medivacs which plays quite a huge roll 6 They both have normal speed, roaches have fast if researced. 7 Roaches can burrow when reseached and regains 5 hp/sec while burrowed as well as move while doing so also this if researched. All this contribute to how the diffrent units play and how well they function in the diffrent strages of the game, one can not just say that just because terran has a unit that excels vs armored ground is 2 supply that the only viable armored unit in the zerg arsenal should have the same supply. Also notice that I did not take into account the following unit specific upgrades concussive shells 50/50[60] (requires techlab 50/25[25]) organic carapace 150/150[110] (requires Burrow 100/100[100]), glial reconstitution 100/100[110], tunneling claws 150/150[110] (requires Burrow 100/100[100]) Overall I just want to say that I think this will hit zerg players quite hard in the early game as they now have to produce more overlords and in turn slowing down their early eco / unit produciton / teching as from what I've seen they mostly use roaches early game to get their eco going and tech up to lair. Yo man, be honest, are you high? | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
I figure you're trying to slyly make some rhetorical point, but you just quoted like 8 paragraphs so it would be nice if you elaborated a bit if you're trying to have an actual discussion. | ||
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Thenas
Sweden107 Posts
No not at all, a little tired atm but nothing else. my point is you can't compare a unit with another from a diffrent race they are not meant to be played / used / function alike, that's what diversity is about. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
Instead of nerfing void ray, Blizzard is telling zerg players just to tech to fast hydralisks every match. These last two patches, why? They came too fast and the changes were too big IMO. I thought that the game was actually fairly good right after they fixed the larvae thing. BTW, who else is watching the MLG showmatches? For you guys saying the roach food thing isnt a big deal, the two games so far have, in my eyes, proven otherwise. | ||
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Fleeben
United States12 Posts
On May 14 2010 12:51 Tsagacity wrote: Why would you ask that? I figure you're trying to slyly make some rhetorical point, but you just quoted like 8 paragraphs so it would be nice if you elaborated a bit if you're trying to have an actual discussion. Well for one hes factoring the tech lab in the cost of obtaining concussive shells and seems to think that by the time the terran player has medvacs he should still be building just roaches. He also is making the point that marauders are really good rather than explaining how roaches being 2 supply is bad. On May 14 2010 12:54 red_b wrote: I finally get it. Instead of nerfing void ray, Blizzard is telling zerg players just to tech to fast hydralisks every match. These last two patches, why? They came too fast and the changes were too big IMO. I thought that the game was actually fairly good right after they fixed the larvae thing. BTW, who else is watching the MLG showmatches? For you guys saying the roach food thing isnt a big deal, the two games so far have, in my eyes, proven otherwise. And you also think VRs are OP or something, soooooo your opinion probably means nothing. | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
On May 14 2010 12:55 Fleeben wrote: The poster he quoted was implying a point that roaches are now like marauders. Well for one hes factoring the tech lab in the cost of obtaining concussive shells and seems to think that by the time the terran player has medvacs he should still be building just roaches. He also is making the point that marauders are really good rather than explaining how roaches being 2 supply is bad. The guy you called high was making the point (valid imo) that roaches are nowhere near the quality of marauders due to easier upgrades, double the range, and similar damage/better against armored. The medivac was a late-game comparison to roach regen. | ||
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Kanil
United States1713 Posts
I don't feel Roaches were unbalanced, but it moves the Roach in a good direction. Hopefully they can continue to nerf it in some areas, while buffing it in others to make it a bit more interesting again. Then hopefully they can do the same to the Marauder. | ||
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Thenas
Sweden107 Posts
On May 14 2010 12:55 Fleeben wrote: Well for one hes factoring the tech lab in the cost of obtaining concussive shells and seems to think that by the time the terran player has medvacs he should still be building just roaches. He also is making the point that marauders are really good rather than explaining how roaches being 2 supply is bad. Oh no, that wasn't my point at all, I'm just trying to explain why I think you should not compare diffrent units from diffrent races that were designed to function differntly from eachother. Should I take everything into account for the roach cost it would be higher as you'd have to get a spawning pool, roach warran, lair to get everything but the organic crapace and the +3 upgrades (side note: unit specific upgrades require lair minium) The same goes for having medivacs ofc, barracks, factory, starport. If we want to have the units function the same we can just remove 2 races however I think we would all find that rather dull. | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
On May 14 2010 12:54 red_b wrote: I finally get it. Instead of nerfing void ray, Blizzard is telling zerg players just to tech to fast hydralisks every match. These last two patches, why? They came too fast and the changes were too big IMO. I thought that the game was actually fairly good right after they fixed the larvae thing. BTW, who else is watching the MLG showmatches? For you guys saying the roach food thing isnt a big deal, the two games so far have, in my eyes, proven otherwise. The 2 food thing makes sense to me on paper but when I play it just feels wrong. All the timings feel wrong to me now and roaches aren't that viable as tanks anymore. I mean zerg was boring before but now maybe all it'll be is ling hydra until late game and baneling against terran. What do the 1800+ players think? | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
And you also think VRs are OP or something, soooooo your opinion probably means nothing. No, I do not. Should I have indicated that I was joking explicitly? Im sorry, I assumed that people would be able to infer that such a ridiculous suggestion is not likely to be the actual opinion of the person posting it. If anything, my post suggests that void rays have a counter that's in the game already. May I suggest that you read the wizard of oz? Im facetiously joking about the same point as the wizard himself makes; you can give someone something that proves they already have what they need, in this case hydralisks. they will almost certainly not understand the meaning behind the gift. I figured that considering the recent crying about void rays, I was being clever. Apparently not. More on the patch itself, I am quite happy about Blizzard fixing the crash on exit. That had been happening to me every time. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
On May 14 2010 12:41 -orb- wrote: sac an overlord? Besides, zerg has the best anti-air. Hydras are just plain amazing at anti-air to the point that even units like carriers are just completely useless vs zerg. Even if it takes you a little tech to get to, at least you have that anti-air. Protoss is still without any solid anti-air Overlords are so slow you often dont get to see anything before they just snipe it asap  If your opponent isn't an idiot he'll hide his air stuff somewhere tucked away in his base, so probably won't even be able to scout it =/ Don't u feel Void Rays are decent anti-air? They seem pretty decent in the air once you get more than 4 or 5 of them. That being said, you'd know a crapton better than me, and I was surprised the other day how much my mutas pwned Rays. So maybe you're right. Hydras are really, really good units and I agree they would be OP as T1. I'm not really sure what the solution is, just seems like there is a gap in Zerg at the moment. They just seem a bit messy. Not in any way bad, just messy. | ||
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fathead
United States158 Posts
On May 14 2010 12:13 Subversion wrote: I don't think Zerg is a bad race, and I don't think this patch makes Zerg/Roaches useless. I really just think, as someone was saying earlier, that Zerg is such a mess at the moment. They just don't seem to have it all together. And having to get lair for decent anti-air and decent scouting I really feel is a problem at the moment. Well said. Terran for example, can open with early thor, vikings, marauders, reapers, helions, or banshees all off an early tech lab. So scouting it doesn't tell me much. And after that they are walled in and I am in the dark until I get lair. My only chance is to sacrifice an OL and good players are getter better and better at finding and killing that OL with 3-4 marines before it can see anything. My only options early game are to ling rush into baneling bust, roach rush, F/E into macro game, or tech to lair. All of which are easy to scout. Only after lair tech can I have some scouting and anti scouting capability so long as I get lucky and they scan in the wrong place. Yes SCV die to queens but they can still get a scout off. Terran has 6 possible builds all off of one add on (so I am not even including 2 rax rush or F/E) all of which can't be scouted, I have 4 total builds all of which can be scouted. This does not equate to imbalance by any means. But it does mean a drastic lack of variety for both early and late game zerg. Now we get a major nurf to a unit that had some creative potential. It seems like blizzard wants zerg to just mass two or three units all game and then nurf those units. Zerg already had a 49% win rate vs T and P. Blizzard may yet get zerg together before the release. I have no doubt they will balance it. But can they balance it and make it fun? In the mean time it is a very depressing time to play zerg. Here is another example. Terran has two caster units (ghost and raven) one of which actual does very good damage, protoss has three caster units (HT, Mothership, and sentry) two of which also do decent damage. Zerg has only one caster that has no attack what so ever (unless you want to include queens as a caster which I think would be silly since they are really just an extension of the hatchery). Almost all of the terran units can both harass and fight very well.They can drop any unit very early and have two viable air units very early. Zerg has three harass units, muta has no chance in a strait up fight, lings depreciate as the game progresses, and roaches were never much of a harasser in the first place and now there are less of them. Again I am not worried about balance as I think over time blizzard will smooth out any problems, but I am very concerned about fun and creative play. The problem is as of right now we are both not fun and not very strong. I played zerg ever since the Savior days. I am wondering if it's not to late to switch races. I played toss before that, maybe I should go back or maybe I should try a race I never play before in terran. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
That being said, you'd know a crapton better than me, and I was surprised the other day how much my mutas pwned Rays. So maybe you're right. Well that's how it should be... Mutas > Rays > Corruptors > Phoenixes > Mutas | ||
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