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On May 14 2010 11:58 Ampere wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:56 Lollersauce wrote:On May 14 2010 11:55 fuzzehbunneh wrote:
roaches dont get stim or concussion shells or bonus dmg to armored! Roaches are cheaper than Marauders and Stalkers, have several upgrades to make them more powerful (Burrow + moving while burrowed + increased speed + increased HP regen). They have Burrow + Move for a reason. Use it.
Lol someone tally up the cost of lair + roach upgrades and compare to marauders.
And you're forgetting the best part about marauders: bonus to armored.
Sorry bro, roaches really don't match marauders. Not nearly.
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On May 14 2010 11:31 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:29 Lollersauce wrote:On May 14 2010 11:27 -orb- wrote:
I don't see why it's that huge of a nerf anyways.
Before, it was every 8 roaches you had to make an overlord.
Now, it's every 4 roaches you had to make an overlord.
So pre-patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including teh o/l was 700 minerals total and 9 larvae total
Post patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including o/ls is 800 minerals total and 10 larvae total.
So you've increased the mineral cost (effectively) by 14% and increased the larvae cost by 11%
Really not that huge of a nerf. It's only lategame that it makes that huge of a difference when you get supply capped and everyone knows zerg has had the strongest 200/200 not due to its army being the strongest but due to the ability to sit around massing up larvae with injections until you suicide your army and proceed to instantly be back at 200/200 again from a single production cycle. Yeah it would be cool if Zerg was actually Protoss and I wanted all my units to be 2+ supply. Except I don't. Yeah it would be cool if Protoss was Zerg and I wanted all my units to be fragile and weak. When units are 1 or less supply they shouldn't have the same strength as 2 supply units from protoss. If they're 1 supply and cost less (like roaches do) they should be more fragile so that you have to mass more of them to meet your opponent's demands. The problem is that the roach is a tank unit in the style of protoss units yet it had the cost of the zerg style of massing weak units. You can't have your cake and eat it too
While your at it in a 200/200 fight PvZ you might not even need to use forcefields to split the zerg army anymore since they will be half the size of what they were used to be.. what more if you actually did use forcefield?? ^^
Peace orb ^^ though I am your fan
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On May 14 2010 12:00 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:58 Ampere wrote:On May 14 2010 11:56 Lollersauce wrote:On May 14 2010 11:55 fuzzehbunneh wrote:
roaches dont get stim or concussion shells or bonus dmg to armored! Roaches are cheaper than Marauders and Stalkers, have several upgrades to make them more powerful (Burrow + moving while burrowed + increased speed + increased HP regen). They have Burrow + Move for a reason. Use it. Lol someone tally up the cost of lair + roach upgrades and compare to marauders. And you're forgetting the best part about marauders: bonus to armored. Sorry bro, roaches really don't match marauders. Not nearly.
That's not the best part about marauders. The best part about marauders is their INSANE mobility with stim. A stimmed marauder outruns a zealot THAT IS CHARGING.. lollllllllll not like normally moving with the charge upgrade but charging
so dumb
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On May 14 2010 12:00 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:58 Ampere wrote:On May 14 2010 11:56 Lollersauce wrote:On May 14 2010 11:55 fuzzehbunneh wrote:
roaches dont get stim or concussion shells or bonus dmg to armored! Roaches are cheaper than Marauders and Stalkers, have several upgrades to make them more powerful (Burrow + moving while burrowed + increased speed + increased HP regen). They have Burrow + Move for a reason. Use it. Lol someone tally up the cost of lair + roach upgrades and compare to marauders. And you're forgetting the best part about marauders: bonus to armored. Sorry bro, roaches really don't match marauders. Not nearly.
Marauders are the counter to roaches... So obviously they don't match them. That's why you need to get zerglings and possibly spine crawlers to go along with it, while teching up to mutas or hydras (If you have 2 bases).
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GIVE.... US.... T1... ANTI-AIR....
DAMN U BLIZZARD!
Lol, I think roach must be the most nerfed unit by now? It's had what? 3? 4 nerfs?
Sigh.
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On May 14 2010 12:03 Ampere wrote:
Marauders are the counter to roaches... So obviously they don't match them. That's why you need to get zerglings and possibly spine crawlers to go along with it, while teching up to mutas or hydras (If you have 2 bases).
I am not talking about marauders fighting roaches here. I am talking about the general effectiveness/utility of the 2 units. It's pretty clear that marauders are going to be used all around by T because they are overall much better than roaches for a comparable investment, a much lesser one when you count upgrades/time. Roaches at 2 supply are not nearly as interesting to get as Marauders.
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On May 14 2010 12:05 Subversion wrote:
GIVE.... US.... T1... ANTI-AIR....
DAMN U BLIZZARD!
Lol, I think roach must be the most nerfed unit by now? It's had what? 3? 4 nerfs?
Sigh.
It did get it's armor back if im not mistaken.
And honestly, everyone knows that Zerg was the most imba before the patch, #1 in most of the leauges and all of the tourneys, It is better for the game!
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On May 14 2010 11:55 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:52 Fruscainte wrote:Wait, Roaches become a 2 supply unit, relatively low cost, highly effective against pretty much all ground units, has no AA whatsoever, and is an integral part of almost every army setup? Where have I seen this before? + Show Spoiler +*Cough* Marauders *Cough* Obviously underpowered and wont ever be used again in any builds. *rolleyes* You're actually comparing Roaches to Marauders? lol..
What's not to compare? Roaches are Cheaper, have more starting armor (I believe), do similar damage, both are known for being the meatshields of both races ground armies, both are the most cost-effective units of their race, are useful in almost every build, are 2 supply, are tier 1.5 units, and both have useful spells. (Concussive Shells for Marauders, burrow + move for Roaches is pretty legit). What's not to compare?
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On May 14 2010 11:42 fuzzehbunneh wrote:
That is probably due in part to the zergling being absolutely laughable as a unit outside of a super early rush or in absolutely obscene numbers. (but even then they get slaughtered by high tier units - see the 300 lings vs ultra vid (pre ultra buff))
also..roach is pretty much the only unit capable of denting a wall in early. how is zerg supposed to do ANYTHING about that wall before later tech, at which time theyre too late to see anything going on? and hell if you tell us to sac an ovie...ones we need extra of to afford roaches in the first place.
...That video is a 3/3 Ultra with all upgrades against 0/0 Zerglings with no upgrades.
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I don't think Zerg is a bad race, and I don't think this patch makes Zerg/Roaches useless.
I really just think, as someone was saying earlier, that Zerg is such a mess at the moment. They just don't seem to have it all together.
And having to get lair for decent anti-air and decent scouting I really feel is a problem at the moment.
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So strange to reduce thor size to make it more mobile but not do the same for ultra. I hope they have something good up their sleeves.
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On May 14 2010 12:09 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:42 fuzzehbunneh wrote:
That is probably due in part to the zergling being absolutely laughable as a unit outside of a super early rush or in absolutely obscene numbers. (but even then they get slaughtered by high tier units - see the 300 lings vs ultra vid (pre ultra buff))
also..roach is pretty much the only unit capable of denting a wall in early. how is zerg supposed to do ANYTHING about that wall before later tech, at which time theyre too late to see anything going on? and hell if you tell us to sac an ovie...ones we need extra of to afford roaches in the first place. ...That video is a 3/3 Ultra with all upgrades against 0/0 Zerglings with no upgrades.
its still 7500 minerals lost to 2250 resources not adjusting the gas cost
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On May 14 2010 12:16 Gescom wrote:
So strange to reduce thor size to make it more mobile but not do the same for ultra. I hope they have something good up their sleeves.
They could try increasing an ultralisks range to like1.5- 2 so it could attack over a line of zerglings. Don't give it an actual projectile ranged attack, but just allow it to attack over small units.
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I would have preferred a stat nerf to the roach rather than a supply nerf...
zerg should be overwhelm you with a crapton of shit, and they seem to have lost that part of their racial identity, which hurts the game imo.
and i love Blizzard's thinking,
we need to buff the mothership, how do we make it more useful in all matchups so its not the new scout?
Hey, lets make vortex suck up Forcefields, that will fix EVERYTHING. ALRIGHT.
On May 14 2010 12:21 fuzzehbunneh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 12:09 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 14 2010 11:42 fuzzehbunneh wrote:
That is probably due in part to the zergling being absolutely laughable as a unit outside of a super early rush or in absolutely obscene numbers. (but even then they get slaughtered by high tier units - see the 300 lings vs ultra vid (pre ultra buff))
also..roach is pretty much the only unit capable of denting a wall in early. how is zerg supposed to do ANYTHING about that wall before later tech, at which time theyre too late to see anything going on? and hell if you tell us to sac an ovie...ones we need extra of to afford roaches in the first place. ...That video is a 3/3 Ultra with all upgrades against 0/0 Zerglings with no upgrades. its still 7500 minerals lost to 2250 resources not adjusting the gas cost
stop being retarded. i can beat 600 lings with 1 0/0 banshee, its 7500 minerals lost to 150/100. those comparisons are bullshit.
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looks like there will be more hive techs but if they were gonna do that to the roach then they should have buffed it back with its regen and/or armor
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On May 14 2010 12:21 Chen wrote:I would have preferred a stat nerf to the roach rather than a supply nerf... zerg should be overwhelm you with a crapton of shit, and they seem to have lost that part of their racial identity, which hurts the game imo. and i love Blizzard's thinking, we need to buff the mothership, how do we make it more useful in all matchups so its not the new scout? Hey, lets make vortex suck up Forcefields, that will fix EVERYTHING. ALRIGHT. Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 12:21 fuzzehbunneh wrote:On May 14 2010 12:09 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 14 2010 11:42 fuzzehbunneh wrote:
That is probably due in part to the zergling being absolutely laughable as a unit outside of a super early rush or in absolutely obscene numbers. (but even then they get slaughtered by high tier units - see the 300 lings vs ultra vid (pre ultra buff))
also..roach is pretty much the only unit capable of denting a wall in early. how is zerg supposed to do ANYTHING about that wall before later tech, at which time theyre too late to see anything going on? and hell if you tell us to sac an ovie...ones we need extra of to afford roaches in the first place. ...That video is a 3/3 Ultra with all upgrades against 0/0 Zerglings with no upgrades. its still 7500 minerals lost to 2250 resources not adjusting the gas cost stop being retarded. i can beat 600 lings with 1 0/0 banshee, its 7500 minerals lost to 150/100. those comparisons are bullshit.
thats completely different seeing as zerglings cant attack air. they can attack ground. its to show how useless zerglings are
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On May 14 2010 11:55 Lollersauce wrote:
One thing I want to know is if we're ever going to get a t1 AA option other than queens/spores?
I mean really, saying Zerg is a mess is an understatement.
What are you even talking about
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On May 14 2010 12:21 Chen wrote:I would have preferred a stat nerf to the roach rather than a supply nerf... zerg should be overwhelm you with a crapton of shit, and they seem to have lost that part of their racial identity, which hurts the game imo. and i love Blizzard's thinking, we need to buff the mothership, how do we make it more useful in all matchups so its not the new scout? Hey, lets make vortex suck up Forcefields, that will fix EVERYTHING. ALRIGHT. Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 12:21 fuzzehbunneh wrote:On May 14 2010 12:09 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 14 2010 11:42 fuzzehbunneh wrote:
That is probably due in part to the zergling being absolutely laughable as a unit outside of a super early rush or in absolutely obscene numbers. (but even then they get slaughtered by high tier units - see the 300 lings vs ultra vid (pre ultra buff))
also..roach is pretty much the only unit capable of denting a wall in early. how is zerg supposed to do ANYTHING about that wall before later tech, at which time theyre too late to see anything going on? and hell if you tell us to sac an ovie...ones we need extra of to afford roaches in the first place. ...That video is a 3/3 Ultra with all upgrades against 0/0 Zerglings with no upgrades. its still 7500 minerals lost to 2250 resources not adjusting the gas cost stop being retarded. i can beat 600 lings with 1 0/0 banshee, its 7500 minerals lost to 150/100. those comparisons are bullshit.
You have no idea at all what you're talking about whatsoever.
They didn't make vortex get rid of force fields to buff it, they did it to fix an issue where you could put force fields in a circle on a vortex and cause the units to come out stuck in a tiny spot to all die to 1 splash damage attack.
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On May 14 2010 12:21 Chen wrote:I would have preferred a stat nerf to the roach rather than a supply nerf... zerg should be overwhelm you with a crapton of shit, and they seem to have lost that part of their racial identity, which hurts the game imo. and i love Blizzard's thinking, we need to buff the mothership, how do we make it more useful in all matchups so its not the new scout? Hey, lets make vortex suck up Forcefields, that will fix EVERYTHING. ALRIGHT. Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 12:21 fuzzehbunneh wrote:On May 14 2010 12:09 Zeke50100 wrote:On May 14 2010 11:42 fuzzehbunneh wrote:
That is probably due in part to the zergling being absolutely laughable as a unit outside of a super early rush or in absolutely obscene numbers. (but even then they get slaughtered by high tier units - see the 300 lings vs ultra vid (pre ultra buff))
also..roach is pretty much the only unit capable of denting a wall in early. how is zerg supposed to do ANYTHING about that wall before later tech, at which time theyre too late to see anything going on? and hell if you tell us to sac an ovie...ones we need extra of to afford roaches in the first place. ...That video is a 3/3 Ultra with all upgrades against 0/0 Zerglings with no upgrades. its still 7500 minerals lost to 2250 resources not adjusting the gas cost stop being retarded. i can beat 600 lings with 1 0/0 banshee, its 7500 minerals lost to 150/100. those comparisons are bullshit.
Wow man some of these posts are like, it makes you happy that they have so much data and hopefully dont rely upon the anecdotal evidence of absolute morons.
woops beatd
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On May 14 2010 12:13 Subversion wrote:
I don't think Zerg is a bad race, and I don't think this patch makes Zerg/Roaches useless.
I really just think, as someone was saying earlier, that Zerg is such a mess at the moment. They just don't seem to have it all together.
And having to get lair for decent anti-air and decent scouting I really feel is a problem at the moment.
Yea, it really does feel like Zerg has too much pressure to go to Lair tech to counter any type of air unit.
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EPT
