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On May 14 2010 08:02 iEchoic wrote:For the people saying Terran players just have less skill: Go watch the series between DeMuslim and Nazgul. They kept switching off terran and protoss and whoever was terran lost every single game. So can you please let that incorrect and stupid argument die? Demuslim replaysTerran is behind the other two races at high levels and arguing otherwise is just denying reality.
This is an awful argument. I guess a sample of 3 games proves everything. What's true is different races require different skills to win. What's also true is that it's possible for any race to win against any other race.
You're using race imbalance to hide yourself from the fact that you aren't skilled enough to win against skilled players of other races.
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On May 14 2010 11:06 ooni wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 10:52 Powda wrote:
If only Protoss and terran had units that were built to kill roaches we wouldn't have to have all these nerfs. Ooops.
C wut I deed der? That's not the problem at all... The problem Blizzard is trying to fix is ZvZ. They said they will work on the ZvZ issue and this is what they came up with. Even in patch 11 alot of matches go Roach v Roach in ZvZ (not as much but still a lot). We will see if this trend changes or continues in patch 12.
This post actually does make sense. I do think roachs are to strong ZvZ, I go mass roachs in ZvZ no matter what opponent does and usually win. But they just drastically nurfed ZvP and to a lesser extent ZvT, and ZvP at 200 supply was already a big problem.
From what I read the problem is that they didn't do the Ult buff that we have been promised since forever the same time they did the roach nurf. So in the mean time ZvP is dramatically changed. Colossi just got more valuable, BL just got more valuable, and Z's ability to survive long enough to get BL has just been dramatically nurfed.
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On May 14 2010 11:11 fathead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:06 ooni wrote:On May 14 2010 10:52 Powda wrote:
If only Protoss and terran had units that were built to kill roaches we wouldn't have to have all these nerfs. Ooops.
C wut I deed der? That's not the problem at all... The problem Blizzard is trying to fix is ZvZ. They said they will work on the ZvZ issue and this is what they came up with. Even in patch 11 alot of matches go Roach v Roach in ZvZ (not as much but still a lot). We will see if this trend changes or continues in patch 12. This post actually does make sense. I do think roachs are to strong ZvZ, I go mass roachs in ZvZ no matter what opponent does and usually win. But they just drastically nurfed ZvP and to a lesser extent ZvT, and ZvP at 200 supply was already a big problem.
I can't even imagine a platinum player going nothing but roaches against my zerg and having a chance at all. If anything Roaches are only used to block the ramp. Zerglings are a far superior option.
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On May 14 2010 11:10 willeesmalls wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 08:02 iEchoic wrote:For the people saying Terran players just have less skill: Go watch the series between DeMuslim and Nazgul. They kept switching off terran and protoss and whoever was terran lost every single game. So can you please let that incorrect and stupid argument die? Demuslim replaysTerran is behind the other two races at high levels and arguing otherwise is just denying reality. This is an awful argument. I guess a sample of 3 games proves everything. What's true is different races require different skills to win. What's also true is that it's possible for any race to win against any other race. You're using race imbalance to hide yourself from the fact that you aren't skilled enough to win against skilled players of other races.
I don't think he made any arguments about his own skills.
Also, this wasn't the only time it happened. Demuslim vs. Lucifron, exact same thing happened where they traded turns playing PvT and the player who picked P won every time.
At this point, yes it is possible for any race to win against any other race, because on a global level P has a 51 to 55% win rate against T, which isn't something unbeatable like 90% or something like that.
However, Blizzard wants the win ratios of each match up to be as close to 50% as possible, and so they are trying to make balance changes to make the win ratios as close to that as possible.
T can still win, but Blizzard believes P has an advantage over T right now due to statistics.
You can argue otherwise if you wish, but it won't change Blizzard's stance on the matter.
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On May 14 2010 11:14 Powda wrote:
I can't even imagine a platinum player going nothing but roaches against my zerg and having a chance at all. If anything Roaches are only used to block the ramp. Zerglings are a far superior option.
Well I'm 1356 plat and I always go roach and it's my best match up.
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On May 14 2010 11:15 fathead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:14 Powda wrote:
I can't even imagine a platinum player going nothing but roaches against my zerg and having a chance at all. If anything Roaches are only used to block the ramp. Zerglings are a far superior option. Well I'm 1356 plat and I always go roach and it's my best match up.
I'm 1460ish and I'm nowhere close to "good". Don't brag about 1300's lol. Brag about 1800/2k maybe...
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On May 14 2010 11:17 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:15 fathead wrote:On May 14 2010 11:14 Powda wrote:
I can't even imagine a platinum player going nothing but roaches against my zerg and having a chance at all. If anything Roaches are only used to block the ramp. Zerglings are a far superior option. Well I'm 1356 plat and I always go roach and it's my best match up. I'm 1460ish and I'm nowhere close to "good". Don't brag about 1300's lol. Brag about 1800/2k maybe...
Show me where I came close to bragging? You said no platinum player would go mass roach. I corrected you. You should have been more specific in your original post. And I've been as high as 1450 also before I went on a 9 game losing streak a few nights ago.
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The reason people keep bringing up for the roach nerf is that it was too easy to re-spawn a giant roach army after a late game battle where most of your other units are wiped out. How will this change that? If I went from 200 supply to 50, I could spawn 50 roaches if I have 50 larva at 1 food each. Post patch 12, I can STILL do this. I just go from 50 food to 150, rather than 100. Cost is the same at this point in the game. I believe the outcomes of this are 1) It will be harder to mass roaches early on, and 2) Zerg is nerfed hardcore late game, in terms of being able to have a 200/200 army that can stand up to others.
The roach (and so many other Zerg units) just don't make sense in the context of the larger zerg army. The nerf is supposed to encourage us to use the ultralisk instead? Then WHY, please tell me, does the roach have a T3 armor upgrade? That is, if we're supposed to use ultras instead of roach at T3?
This is my first post at TL, brought to you by massive zerg nerfing.
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On May 14 2010 11:06 ooni wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 10:52 Powda wrote:
If only Protoss and terran had units that were built to kill roaches we wouldn't have to have all these nerfs. Ooops.
C wut I deed der? That's not the problem at all... The problem Blizzard is trying to fix is ZvZ. They said they will work on the ZvZ issue and this is what they came up with. Even in patch 11 alot of matches go Roach v Roach in ZvZ (not as much but still a lot). We will see if this trend changes or continues in patch 12. Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:03 fathead wrote:
I was watching some of my older reps and I noticed that at 200/200 supply it wasn't uncommon for me to have 30-40 roaches. I don't think people understand just how much of a nurf this patch is to 200 supply zerg (of which was already Zerg's weakest point). Max supply zerg is the weakest point? What game are you playing? I'll be a devil's advocate for a moment and say Zerg is the worst in battle 200v200 supply heads on. Zerg has the best mechanics for reproducing units. Zerg can resupply units so so fast, it's their strength. Zerg is most powerful when maxed, it's common sense buddy.
This is not true, Zerg can restock their army faster than anyone else but they also have weaker units which means they rarely come out on top in a 200/200 battle. and really Protoss with their mass gates aren't to shabby on the unit restocking either, especially if you chrono it.
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On May 14 2010 11:10 Muhweli wrote:
And yeah, I think the greatest impact will be in late game zvp (and maybe somewhat early too since this is oughta make defending and countering some zealot pushes a bit harder).
some zealot pushes? you mean all of them? zerglings can barely kill a probe before dying to them much less hold off 4 zealots rushing
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I don't see why it's that huge of a nerf anyways.
Before, it was every 8 roaches you had to make an overlord.
Now, it's every 4 roaches you had to make an overlord.
So pre-patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including teh o/l was 700 minerals total and 9 larvae total
Post patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including o/ls is 800 minerals total and 10 larvae total.
So you've increased the mineral cost (effectively) by 14% and increased the larvae cost by 11%
Really not that huge of a nerf. It's only lategame that it makes that huge of a difference when you get supply capped and everyone knows zerg has had the strongest 200/200 not due to its army being the strongest but due to the ability to sit around massing up larvae with injections until you suicide your army and proceed to instantly be back at 200/200 again from a single production cycle.
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On May 14 2010 11:27 -orb- wrote:
I don't see why it's that huge of a nerf anyways.
Before, it was every 8 roaches you had to make an overlord.
Now, it's every 4 roaches you had to make an overlord.
So pre-patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including teh o/l was 700 minerals total and 9 larvae total
Post patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including o/ls is 800 minerals total and 10 larvae total.
So you've increased the mineral cost (effectively) by 14% and increased the larvae cost by 11%
Really not that huge of a nerf. It's only lategame that it makes that huge of a difference when you get supply capped and everyone knows zerg has had the strongest 200/200 not due to its army being the strongest but due to the ability to sit around massing up larvae with injections until you suicide your army and proceed to instantly be back at 200/200 again from a single production cycle.
And im sure alot of the zerg are ignoring the late game as they wont get there because of the lack of early game roaches to hold off any kind of attack.
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On May 14 2010 11:27 -orb- wrote:
I don't see why it's that huge of a nerf anyways.
Before, it was every 8 roaches you had to make an overlord.
Now, it's every 4 roaches you had to make an overlord.
So pre-patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including teh o/l was 700 minerals total and 9 larvae total
Post patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including o/ls is 800 minerals total and 10 larvae total.
So you've increased the mineral cost (effectively) by 14% and increased the larvae cost by 11%
Really not that huge of a nerf. It's only lategame that it makes that huge of a difference when you get supply capped and everyone knows zerg has had the strongest 200/200 not due to its army being the strongest but due to the ability to sit around massing up larvae with injections until you suicide your army and proceed to instantly be back at 200/200 again from a single production cycle.
Yeah it would be cool if Zerg was actually Protoss and I wanted all my units to be 2+ supply.
Except I don't.
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On May 14 2010 11:29 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:27 -orb- wrote:
I don't see why it's that huge of a nerf anyways.
Before, it was every 8 roaches you had to make an overlord.
Now, it's every 4 roaches you had to make an overlord.
So pre-patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including teh o/l was 700 minerals total and 9 larvae total
Post patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including o/ls is 800 minerals total and 10 larvae total.
So you've increased the mineral cost (effectively) by 14% and increased the larvae cost by 11%
Really not that huge of a nerf. It's only lategame that it makes that huge of a difference when you get supply capped and everyone knows zerg has had the strongest 200/200 not due to its army being the strongest but due to the ability to sit around massing up larvae with injections until you suicide your army and proceed to instantly be back at 200/200 again from a single production cycle. Yeah it would be cool if Zerg was actually Protoss and I wanted all my units to be 2+ supply. Except I don't.
Yeah it would be cool if Protoss was Zerg and I wanted all my units to be fragile and weak.
When units are 1 or less supply they shouldn't have the same strength as 2 supply units from protoss. If they're 1 supply and cost less (like roaches do) they should be more fragile so that you have to mass more of them to meet your opponent's demands.
The problem is that the roach is a tank unit in the style of protoss units yet it had the cost of the zerg style of massing weak units.
You can't have your cake and eat it too
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On May 14 2010 11:14 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:10 willeesmalls wrote:On May 14 2010 08:02 iEchoic wrote:For the people saying Terran players just have less skill: Go watch the series between DeMuslim and Nazgul. They kept switching off terran and protoss and whoever was terran lost every single game. So can you please let that incorrect and stupid argument die? Demuslim replaysTerran is behind the other two races at high levels and arguing otherwise is just denying reality. This is an awful argument. I guess a sample of 3 games proves everything. What's true is different races require different skills to win. What's also true is that it's possible for any race to win against any other race. You're using race imbalance to hide yourself from the fact that you aren't skilled enough to win against skilled players of other races. I don't think he made any arguments about his own skills. Also, this wasn't the only time it happened. Demuslim vs. Lucifron, exact same thing happened where they traded turns playing PvT and the player who picked P won every time. At this point, yes it is possible for any race to win against any other race, because on a global level P has a 51 to 55% win rate against T, which isn't something unbeatable like 90% or something like that. However, Blizzard wants the win ratios of each match up to be as close to 50% as possible, and so they are trying to make balance changes to make the win ratios as close to that as possible. T can still win, but Blizzard believes P has an advantage over T right now due to statistics. You can argue otherwise if you wish, but it won't change Blizzard's stance on the matter.
I made the (unfounded) assumption that he was a raging T player due to his extreme desire to see T as being inferior. I play random at a decent level (1600+) and I feel that if T was buffed I would prefer T in all tvp matchups.
I recall Blizzard once said they don't believe Terran players were playing correctly, which were what was causing them to lose more games than they should. I believe it's general opinion on the Korean servers that the Terran players are behind the other 2 races in terms of adapting to SC2.
I'm not as good as the Terran players I've seen in Tourneys, but I don't think they're playing optimally.
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On May 14 2010 11:29 fuzzehbunneh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:27 -orb- wrote:
I don't see why it's that huge of a nerf anyways.
Before, it was every 8 roaches you had to make an overlord.
Now, it's every 4 roaches you had to make an overlord.
So pre-patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including teh o/l was 700 minerals total and 9 larvae total
Post patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including o/ls is 800 minerals total and 10 larvae total.
So you've increased the mineral cost (effectively) by 14% and increased the larvae cost by 11%
Really not that huge of a nerf. It's only lategame that it makes that huge of a difference when you get supply capped and everyone knows zerg has had the strongest 200/200 not due to its army being the strongest but due to the ability to sit around massing up larvae with injections until you suicide your army and proceed to instantly be back at 200/200 again from a single production cycle. And im sure alot of the zerg are ignoring the late game as they wont get there because of the lack of early game roaches to hold off any kind of attack.
I heard a 14% nerf completely changed zerg so much that you completely lack the ability to hold off any kind of early game attack.
But I guess the 44% nerf to storm was fine?
You people are overreacting and have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
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On May 14 2010 11:24 fuzzehbunneh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:10 Muhweli wrote:
And yeah, I think the greatest impact will be in late game zvp (and maybe somewhat early too since this is oughta make defending and countering some zealot pushes a bit harder).
some zealot pushes? you mean all of them? zerglings can barely kill a probe before dying to them much less hold off 4 zealots rushing
Yeah well I'm not trying to be overly dramatic here and considering how many roaches you actually need against them zlot pushes, you probably are still able to fend them off. As a downside, you need a lot more minerals if you wish to do any kind of meaningful counter attack.
Truth be told, the strategies still evolve so fast that who knows if some new discovery will upset the balance suddendly in zergs favor. That being said, this does anally ravage zerg violently in it's current state.
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On May 14 2010 11:32 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:29 fuzzehbunneh wrote:On May 14 2010 11:27 -orb- wrote:
I don't see why it's that huge of a nerf anyways.
Before, it was every 8 roaches you had to make an overlord.
Now, it's every 4 roaches you had to make an overlord.
So pre-patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including teh o/l was 700 minerals total and 9 larvae total
Post patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including o/ls is 800 minerals total and 10 larvae total.
So you've increased the mineral cost (effectively) by 14% and increased the larvae cost by 11%
Really not that huge of a nerf. It's only lategame that it makes that huge of a difference when you get supply capped and everyone knows zerg has had the strongest 200/200 not due to its army being the strongest but due to the ability to sit around massing up larvae with injections until you suicide your army and proceed to instantly be back at 200/200 again from a single production cycle. And im sure alot of the zerg are ignoring the late game as they wont get there because of the lack of early game roaches to hold off any kind of attack. I heard a 14% nerf completely changed zerg so much that you completely lack the ability to hold off any kind of early game attack. But I guess the 44% nerf to storm was fine? You people are overreacting and have absolutely no idea what you're talking about I can't agree on either direct point made by either of you, but can you seriously say psionic storm is a good analogy of something vital for holding off an early game attack?
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On May 14 2010 11:32 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:29 fuzzehbunneh wrote:On May 14 2010 11:27 -orb- wrote:
I don't see why it's that huge of a nerf anyways.
Before, it was every 8 roaches you had to make an overlord.
Now, it's every 4 roaches you had to make an overlord.
So pre-patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including teh o/l was 700 minerals total and 9 larvae total
Post patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including o/ls is 800 minerals total and 10 larvae total.
So you've increased the mineral cost (effectively) by 14% and increased the larvae cost by 11%
Really not that huge of a nerf. It's only lategame that it makes that huge of a difference when you get supply capped and everyone knows zerg has had the strongest 200/200 not due to its army being the strongest but due to the ability to sit around massing up larvae with injections until you suicide your army and proceed to instantly be back at 200/200 again from a single production cycle. And im sure alot of the zerg are ignoring the late game as they wont get there because of the lack of early game roaches to hold off any kind of attack. I heard a 14% nerf completely changed zerg so much that you completely lack the ability to hold off any kind of early game attack. But I guess the 44% nerf to storm was fine? You people are overreacting and have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
Youre still thinking late game. how about dealing with that 14% increase in cost and 11% more lavrae in the first 4-5 minutes? oh yea, its not as irrelevant as you make it out to be.
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On May 14 2010 11:31 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2010 11:29 Lollersauce wrote:On May 14 2010 11:27 -orb- wrote:
I don't see why it's that huge of a nerf anyways.
Before, it was every 8 roaches you had to make an overlord.
Now, it's every 4 roaches you had to make an overlord.
So pre-patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including teh o/l was 700 minerals total and 9 larvae total
Post patch 12:
Every 8 roaches including o/ls is 800 minerals total and 10 larvae total.
So you've increased the mineral cost (effectively) by 14% and increased the larvae cost by 11%
Really not that huge of a nerf. It's only lategame that it makes that huge of a difference when you get supply capped and everyone knows zerg has had the strongest 200/200 not due to its army being the strongest but due to the ability to sit around massing up larvae with injections until you suicide your army and proceed to instantly be back at 200/200 again from a single production cycle. Yeah it would be cool if Zerg was actually Protoss and I wanted all my units to be 2+ supply. Except I don't. Yeah it would be cool if Protoss was Zerg and I wanted all my units to be fragile and weak. When units are 1 or less supply they shouldn't have the same strength as 2 supply units from protoss. If they're 1 supply and cost less (like roaches do) they should be more fragile so that you have to mass more of them to meet your opponent's demands. The problem is that the roach is a tank unit in the style of protoss units yet it had the cost of the zerg style of massing weak units. You can't have your cake and eat it too
Which is why the genius designers should have adjusted stats for the Roach to keep it massable instead of being the idiots they are right now making Zerg even more bland and distanced from the swarm identity than it already is.
Terran swarms more than Zerg atm..
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EPT
