I don't know why you zergs are crying so much. In early-game it won't make a huge difference. You just have to build an overlord every 4th roach instead of every 8th roach. Roundabout it's 12,5 minerals more and the one or the other larva you gotta use for those ovies. In early vP and vT I feel that zerg can be perfectly fine w/ lings/banelings and does not need(!) 20+ roaches. And Z still can build roaches early-game... It favors speedling+1 openings in ZvZ a bit. It is easier to transition to hydra/muta/infestor from speedling-builds. With that said I think it makes ZvZ much more interesting (or atleast more enjoyable).
In late game though it can make a difference. Z is maxed out earlier when building a roach-heavy army. It effectively makes the 200/200 army weaker. Though the Z can push out earlier. Pre patch you pretty much lost vs. 200/200 armies from P and T anyways, so I think it will only make a difference for that part where Z is about to hit 200/200 and his opponent's not maxed yet.
Excuse me if thats bullshit but that's my opinion.
T race is harder to master - it's not worse than the other races at all IMHO....
Listen to what Tester (ex-SCBW-pro, then eStro Coach, now SC2-pro) said: Terran is the strongest race - wait until some very good players start figuring out Terran and you won't be able to beat them.
exactly my opinion.
Yeah I watched the interview and it was interesting. I also tend to agree I just don't agree with the statement that T are worse players. I was just trying to see if he had some sort of reason.
id say if the race is hard to master the people using it successfully are actually better players no?
they're worse right now cus terran jus requires so much micro. once the korean pros play terran (at its current state) i can imagine 2 base terran wiping out 4 base zerg with bio/mech ball time and time again w/o losing much.
I really don't get this roach nerf, I mean yeah sure it will get zerg to play other units more but this basicly made it so expensive with the extra overlords cost / larva added aswell as not reciving the amount of benefit from upgrades in turn making the upgrades less cost effective.
Most likely this will push Z to tech up even earlier for hydras but hydras are twice as gas heavy and gas I find is already a bit of an issue as zerg from my experience.
On May 14 2010 07:48 mamelouk wrote: Some Blizzard employee response to all of you guys:
As we mentioned in the original post, all changes we have planned are not in yet and we have been trying to be careful about layering them in and watching the results closely. This patch is no different and we have more coming down the pipe before much longer. StarCraft II is like an onion with many layers, but instead of peeling the layers, we're adding them in like paper mâché only without the messy flour paste and with a slightly less predictable outcome.
I really like this change and I am a platinum zerg. But I didn't go roach except in ZvZ anyway, though I still want ultras to change, and the 3rd ling upgrade.
On May 14 2010 08:03 Pebble wrote: In late game though it can make a difference.
You answered your own question.
Yea, but I don't see the relation between the amount of sadness and the difference it (the nerf) seems to be making. Ppl. are bitching about it too much.
blizzard is pretty stubborn about keeping the mothership. I'll be much happier if they take out the mothership for an arbiter or make a DT and HT archon into a new unit and also DT archons into a new unit... who in their right minds would merge 2 DTs into an archon anyway?
So most roach builds ZvZ which already had to be very tight to not get rolled by speedlings are now obsolete, and Zerg will have huge troubles in 200/200 battles because they'll max out so quickly.
Sounds like Zerg will have to get hive much earlier now, and get to broodlords (or ultras once they buff them) asap.
Max out quickly? What about toss? ALL of their units are 2+ supply. Plus isn't that a good thing for a zerg? Zerg produces faster then any other race (if played correctly). So somebody maxes out throws a huge push then reproduces. It's just faster.
On May 14 2010 05:56 iEchoic wrote: People crying about a Zerg and Protoss nerf are insane, Z and P win every single tournament out there, T is definitely behind at the moment, save your crying for something more important.
The roach nerf is large but definitely necessary. It will force Zerg to actually compose armies other than mass roaches.
maybe T lose cus the T players are worse players? or should we balance the races so that an equal amount of races win tournaments, lol ur the first one ive ever called retarded
how do you know that T players are worse?
T race is harder to master - it's not worse than the other races at all IMHO....
Listen to what Tester (ex-SCBW-pro, then eStro Coach, now SC2-pro) said: Terran is the strongest race - wait until some very good players start figuring out Terran and you won't be able to beat them.
exactly my opinion.
Nobody seems to want to explain why they feel this is the case, they only want to say that...
The majority of Blizzard's balances are based on statistics in the match ups, and statistically Terrans on the whole have the lowest win percentage.
I've said this in my other posts, but I think Blizzard is addressing the wrong issues.
Terran units may be getting minor buffs with each patch, but the problem IMO has never been the Terran units were ever weak. Terran units have always been effective, as seen by the use of Marauders and early Reaper openings.
The problem lies in the macro potential of Terran. While Zerg can produce an insane amount of units from just two hatcheries and Protoss can produce rapidly via Warp Gates/Chrono Boost, Terrans must make a HUGE number of barracks or factories with TECH LAB add ons in order to produce some of their cost effective units (marauders, tanks, banshees, thors) to match the production rates of the other two races.
The other issue lies in the discrepancy of macro mechanics. Terran simply cannot keep up with Protoss and Zerg in a pure macro race; Terrans must put aggression on the other two races in order to maintain economic parity. Although MULES only cost energy, the powering potential of Zerg and the speed of a Chrono Boosted Nexus mean that the latter two races will always end up economically ahead if allowed to make only workers.
The end result is Blizzard attempting to compensate for this by making Terran units stronger with each patch and weakening Z and P units. I feel, in particular, Zerg nerfs are derived from Spawn Larva's insane potential which allows a good player to power on drones as much as possible in the early game and then have a huge economic advantage to mass units in the midgame.
However, this creates a situation that is irritating for Zerg and Protoss players and not the most favorable for Terran (this is coming from a T player). By making Terran units stronger, it increases the efficacy of early game timing attacks and makes it harder for Zerg and Protoss to defend the same attacks (in particular I know the reaper opening is still a problem). However, this is still making the Terran player play aggressively to equalize/secure an economic advantage, and not allowing them to play a long term, defensive macro game that Terrans are known for in Brood War.
I have not seen any high level replays or VODs so far in Starcraft II where Terran players actually win by playing defensive macro games completely devoid of harassment or early game aggression. This is in stark contrast to Brood War where, sometimes in TvZ and quite often in TvP, the Terran can simply turtle off 2-3 bases, amass a 200/200 3/3 army, and then push out and secure a victory.
I would have to agree with a lot of people that, from a pure units standpoint, Marauders are more cost effective (and OP) than most Zerg and Protoss units, and that Zerg and Protoss units are getting weaker with each patch to the point where Terran units are going to become "imbalanced." However, again I feel Blizzard does this in response to statistics which show that Terran has a disadvantage DESPITE the reaper rushes and OP Marauders. And my belief is that this statistical loss comes specifically from macro potential, i.e. not being on par with Chrono Boost, Spawn Larva, Warp Gates, etc.
I think, if Blizzard nerfed the Terran heavily, undid the nerfs to Z and P, but then made changes to the macro mechanics of all three races, the end result would be beneficial to all three races, allowing Terrans the option of defensive macro play and in return making it so that Z and P do not have to fear harassment or early game aggression.
EPT
