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Patch 12 - Changes and Discussion - Page 46

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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rackdude
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States882 Posts
May 13 2010 22:02 GMT
#901
Blizzard's explanations:

http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24702406287&sid=5000
Sweet.
Karas
Profile Joined March 2010
United States230 Posts
May 13 2010 22:05 GMT
#902
The roach supply increase seemed like a fine idea when the roach was a much stronger unit, but with its recent nerfs I no longer see it as an overwhelming unit that requires such a change. In fact, in most matchups fast tech to hydra is becoming more and more popular.

To me of the unholy trinity Marauders are the only one that are still in the OP stage. The immortal build time nerf seems to have reduced the impact of that first immortal push that was so hard to stop. The roaches various nerfs and the stalker increase has provided each of the races a viable counter.

Marauders remain as strong as they ever were. While terrans have to pay 50/50 extra for the slowing privilege, its such a fast research that the most common builds always have marauders with slow. If they had gotten a nerf, I could understand a roach nerf but in a vacuum not so sure.

One thing I would like to see is a buff to zerg for adrenal glands, especially now that roaches aren't as massable. Zerglings just aren't cutting the mustard late game, so a boost to that upgrade could bring back some of the damage of old.
Utred
Profile Joined February 2010
Belgium16 Posts
May 13 2010 22:05 GMT
#903
Roaches are just too mighty to be a 1 supply unit. In 200 supply battles Roaches can be very difficult to deal with even with the correct counters in play by protoss or terran players.

200 supply roaches kill 200 supply marauders?
rackdude
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States882 Posts
May 13 2010 22:06 GMT
#904
On May 14 2010 07:05 Utred wrote:
Show nested quote +
Roaches are just too mighty to be a 1 supply unit. In 200 supply battles Roaches can be very difficult to deal with even with the correct counters in play by protoss or terran players.

200 supply roaches kill 200 supply marauders?


200 supply roaches used to be 2x the amount of marauders.
Sweet.
s031720
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden383 Posts
May 13 2010 22:07 GMT
#905
It would be interesting to let some korean zergs play at the european servers, that way we could get a better understanding of why the Z is so strong there and the Z is so weak here.

Is it because the Korean terran and toss players are so weak, or is it because european zerg-players are so weak?

Because when they base their "balancing" on Korea, it messed up for both the US and EU servers, so this should be investigated further I think.

Personally, I really cant see how Z can stand up to the "balls of deaths" of P and T now, I think I will change to terran for this patch. A good opportunity to learn something new; and ill watch to see how the top Z players adapt. It will be interesting weeks.
Just another noob
TheHof
Profile Joined March 2010
United States92 Posts
May 13 2010 22:07 GMT
#906
Man, going to be loving the new thor radius. The only time I felt it was a serious issue was on ramps, you couldn't fit more than one going up the ramp. Now I'm hoping I'll be able to get them side by side. Will really help in using the thor's HP to just push in through, taking a lot of hits.
"It's so nerve wracking, I'm just crossing my fingers and sayin' c'mooon esports"-Day[9]
kickinhead
Profile Joined December 2008
Switzerland2069 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-13 22:08:24
May 13 2010 22:07 GMT
#907
On May 14 2010 07:05 Utred wrote:
Show nested quote +
Roaches are just too mighty to be a 1 supply unit. In 200 supply battles Roaches can be very difficult to deal with even with the correct counters in play by protoss or terran players.

200 supply roaches kill 200 supply marauders?


it's not all about hardcounter-Units killing the Units they're supposed to counter u know?
https://soundcloud.com/thesamplethief
Utred
Profile Joined February 2010
Belgium16 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-13 22:08:02
May 13 2010 22:07 GMT
#908
On May 14 2010 07:06 rackdude wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2010 07:05 Utred wrote:
Roaches are just too mighty to be a 1 supply unit. In 200 supply battles Roaches can be very difficult to deal with even with the correct counters in play by protoss or terran players.

200 supply roaches kill 200 supply marauders?


200 supply roaches used to be 2x the amount of marauders.

But do they kill them?
I'm not being sarcastic or such, I really don't know.
kk above post answered. Never tried it before.
Fizbin
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada202 Posts
May 13 2010 22:07 GMT
#909
On May 14 2010 02:51 never_toss wrote:
hmm i want to test out pvz :o feels like z will make more lings and banelings now

also looking forward to see thors :D

the mineral too gas ratio is the reason zerg use so many roach's but now with banlings and lings the ratio will be hella lings and a few banelings. still... tanking damage with lings mid game is pretty aweful so im thinking this is a pretty big nerf. more OL's a guess
just the tip
goswser
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3548 Posts
May 13 2010 22:09 GMT
#910
The roach nerf should allow for a more exciting early game tvz and pvz, as you can't be punished as easily by roaches now, although they are still viable against mass zealot etc.

Blizzard Poster:
As we mentioned in the original post, all changes we have planned are not in yet and we have been trying to be careful about layering them in and watching the results closely. This patch is no different and we have more coming down the pipe before much longer. StarCraft II is like an onion with many layers, but instead of peeling the layers, we're adding them in like paper mâché only without the messy flour paste and with a slightly less predictable outcome.
say you were born into a jungle indian tribe where food was scarce...would you run around from teepee to teepee stealing meat scraps after a day lazying around doing nothing except warming urself by a fire that you didn't even make yourself? -rekrul
kickinhead
Profile Joined December 2008
Switzerland2069 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-13 22:09:56
May 13 2010 22:09 GMT
#911
On May 14 2010 07:07 Fizbin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2010 02:51 never_toss wrote:
hmm i want to test out pvz :o feels like z will make more lings and banelings now

also looking forward to see thors :D

the mineral too gas ratio is the reason zerg use so many roach's but now with banlings and lings the ratio will be hella lings and a few banelings. still... tanking damage with lings mid game is pretty aweful so im thinking this is a pretty big nerf. more OL's a guess


Ever thought about the Mins2gas-ratio with meching Terran? ^^'

I tell you - zergs are way better off!

They can always add hatches, queens and spit out lings like crazy! ^^'
https://soundcloud.com/thesamplethief
Rodiel
Profile Joined August 2006
France573 Posts
May 13 2010 22:09 GMT
#912
just push roach to tier 2, i think ling/baneling/crawler is enough to tier1 and exp
ClanOverdosed
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
691 Posts
May 13 2010 22:10 GMT
#913
ewww smaller thors? they were awesome!
Overdosed--www.overdosed.net
kickinhead
Profile Joined December 2008
Switzerland2069 Posts
May 13 2010 22:10 GMT
#914
On May 14 2010 07:09 Rodiel wrote:
just push roach to tier 2, i think ling/baneling/crawler is enough to tier1 and exp


do that, give them burrow by default and move hydras (but cheaper and weaker) back to T1 and I'm fairly satisfied! ^^'
https://soundcloud.com/thesamplethief
rackdude
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States882 Posts
May 13 2010 22:11 GMT
#915
On May 14 2010 07:09 Newguy wrote:
The roach nerf should allow for a more exciting early game tvz and pvz, as you can't be punished as easily by roaches now, although they are still viable against mass zealot etc.

Blizzard Poster:
Show nested quote +
As we mentioned in the original post, all changes we have planned are not in yet and we have been trying to be careful about layering them in and watching the results closely. This patch is no different and we have more coming down the pipe before much longer. StarCraft II is like an onion with many layers, but instead of peeling the layers, we're adding them in like paper mâché only without the messy flour paste and with a slightly less predictable outcome.


Agreed. I think it lends itself to FE -> Phoenix -> templar .
Sweet.
BattleSheen
Profile Joined April 2010
United States58 Posts
May 13 2010 22:11 GMT
#916
1700 Platinum zerg player here.

In regards to the Roach issue...


I never really liked roaches and only built them for specific purposes. For example:

-vs a 2 gate toss to get my expo up. I'll make like 2-3 to fend off zealots. so i dont have to pour a ton of larvae and minerals into lings.

-vs thor rushing terrans, i'll get roaches to keep me alive during my transition to infestor/hydra

-when holding 4 gate pushes on small maps like steppes of war (where hydras cant come out in time) the core of my army would be speedlings, and i'll make a decent amount of roaches for some dps.

and i'm sure there are more i cant think of at the moment.


I've managed to get 1700's platinum and i hardly ever rely on roaches. I think this change will mostly affect the uncreative zerg players who horde roaches, even vs their counters like mauraders and immortals. I think the game is broken if the answer to mauraders and immortals is more roaches. In the end it will force zergs to be dynamic and creative, and will prevent mindless roach massing.

As of now i welcome this change, and i look forward to blizz fairly working out any kinks this change may cause.

Of course, i'm taking into account the planned changes to the infestor, overseer, and ultra. (which will be insta-boner i'm sure)


The ragers should take a breather, open their minds, and adapt their play. zerg still rox my c0x and will only get better with the future changes.

Nuclear Launch Detected
Lollersauce
Profile Joined April 2010
United States357 Posts
May 13 2010 22:11 GMT
#917
On May 14 2010 07:09 Newguy wrote:
The roach nerf should allow for a more exciting early game tvz and pvz, as you can't be punished as easily by roaches now, although they are still viable against mass zealot etc.

Blizzard Poster:
Show nested quote +
As we mentioned in the original post, all changes we have planned are not in yet and we have been trying to be careful about layering them in and watching the results closely. This patch is no different and we have more coming down the pipe before much longer. StarCraft II is like an onion with many layers, but instead of peeling the layers, we're adding them in like paper mâché only without the messy flour paste and with a slightly less predictable outcome.


Yeah much more exciting ZvT now, what with every unit melting to the mech ball and less roaches to help tank.

Time to baneling bust every ZvT... /snore.
Ganondorf
Profile Joined April 2010
Italy600 Posts
May 13 2010 22:11 GMT
#918
On May 14 2010 07:07 s031720 wrote:
It would be interesting to let some korean zergs play at the european servers, that way we could get a better understanding of why the Z is so strong there and the Z is so weak here.

Is it because the Korean terran and toss players are so weak, or is it because european zerg-players are so weak?

Because when they base their "balancing" on Korea, it messed up for both the US and EU servers, so this should be investigated further I think.

Personally, I really cant see how Z can stand up to the "balls of deaths" of P and T now, I think I will change to terran for this patch. A good opportunity to learn something new; and ill watch to see how the top Z players adapt. It will be interesting weeks.


I think there's a tournament coming up with the best eu, us and kor players rapresenting their continent, just check the tournament forum. I'm looking forward to seeing those matches.
Fizbin
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada202 Posts
May 13 2010 22:12 GMT
#919
On May 14 2010 07:07 s031720 wrote:
It would be interesting to let some korean zergs play at the european servers, that way we could get a better understanding of why the Z is so strong there and the Z is so weak here.

Is it because the Korean terran and toss players are so weak, or is it because european zerg-players are so weak?

Because when they base their "balancing" on Korea, it messed up for both the US and EU servers, so this should be investigated further I think.

Personally, I really cant see how Z can stand up to the "balls of deaths" of P and T now, I think I will change to terran for this patch. A good opportunity to learn something new; and ill watch to see how the top Z players adapt. It will be interesting weeks.



ive been trying to find good replays of zerg players on korean servers. and i found a few.. it seems they get more queens and make better use of spine crawlers. even offencively. one european who did that was TLO vs WHITERA HDSC semi finals game on scrap station. check it out on u tube. also the koreans do more harrassing and flanking from what i have seen.

i play platinum and have been trying to implement some of those strats. pretty intereseting.
just the tip
Paperscraps
Profile Joined March 2010
United States639 Posts
May 13 2010 22:12 GMT
#920
On May 14 2010 07:00 ret wrote:
It's going to be incredibly hard to mold this mess they've made into something playable come july 27...not to mention all the other non-gameplay issues....AHHHHHH!

dont think the roach nerf is so bad. But zerg has no end game options :=<


Yeah, because broodlords aren't good late game.
"Because in the end, the only way we can measure the significance of our own lives is by valuing the lives of others.” - David Gale
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