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Hi!
This was in the patch notes "Anti-Air splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage. "
When playing I have seen that this has made a big difference in the thor against muta fight. Even if 2 mutas are side by side touching only the mutalisk that was shot takes damage but it still splashes if they are stacked on top of eachother in a ball.
Do you think thors are still a good mutalisk counter, did they even need the splash or was that just a good way of getting people to try them out and see they can be good anti light even without it? Or do you think this change makes no difference at all since in very large numbers they ball anyway?
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Blizzard is just bracing us for the Muta micro to come.
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Seems to me that they still demolish mutas.
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I've noticed this too, especially in a game I played yesterday, I'm hardly finding them cost effective vs muta anymore. Or you really need to be lucky to get a shot off right when they move up and clump.
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isnt the only difference that they hit AT rather than IN FRONT now? also i think that the splash stays attached to the units (the thor missiles follow the target even after first missile hits) where before they kept on hitting same place = thor should be better vs moving targets now. im not sure this is how it is tho
i feel like siege tanks have become quite alot better but thors seem to be the same. they should be better than before tho
the splash is small but usually big armies like 12+mutas usually clump up in a line and u hit about 3 of them 
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On May 13 2010 01:27 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Seems to me that they still demolish mutas.
This.
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Well, with the new splash from the centre of the target thing that seige tanks are rocking they're far, FAR more powerful, so I don't know why it'd be any different for air. If anything I'd expect it to be even better.
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On May 13 2010 01:32 MorroW wrote:isnt the only difference that they hit AT rather than IN FRONT now? also i think that the splash stays attached to the units (the thor missiles follow the target even after first missile hits) where before they kept on hitting same place = thor should be better vs moving targets now. im not sure this is how it is tho i feel like siege tanks have become quite alot better but thors seem to be the same. they should be better than before tho the splash is small but usually big armies like 12+mutas usually clump up in a line and u hit about 3 of them
Yes this is exactly what it means. I dunno how the OP thought this was a nerf. Previously the splash used to hit a set point wbhere the air units was at impact which would make fast units able to run from the splash in some cicrumstances. All this change did was make it so that units can't escape the splash. This is a clear buff and an improvement vs muta.
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"All this change did was make it so that units can't escape the splash. This is a clear buff and an improvement vs muta."
As far as I know the only difference is that the splash is in the middle of the unit instead of in front. When it was in front it hit more units as long as there was something in front of it and it seemed to hit units on the side of the target too. It doesnt do this when the damage is exactly in the middle of the unit.
I don't know anything about set targets and being able to dodge thor missiles in the previous patch are you sure that was even possible? because the patch notes said nothing about that. Ive seen 8 muta beat 2 thors now.
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thors are a lot worse vs mutas now
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played a 2v2 last night where my partner had about 35 mutas stacked ran into 2 thors and ball evaporated in seconds completely turning the game around. I don't think mutas are viable against thors unless spread.
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United States7166 Posts
how to attack thors with mutas (or air units)
If needed, right click to group mutas up somewhere (when outside of battle)
Let them spread out automatically
Always use Move (right click) to move not attack move. mutas should retain the spread formation
click to move next to or past the thor
once all mutas are in range to attack thor, attack it. very few will take damage from splash. if you want/have time, you can individually split them up for better damage control
If you however just attack move from afar at a thor, they'll all attack when they get in range (obviously!), which makes them all stack up in small arc and get completely owned
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On May 13 2010 02:15 Zelniq wrote:
how to attack thors with mutas (or air units)
If needed, right click to group mutas up somewhere (when outside of battle)
Let them spread out automatically
Always use Move (right click) to move not attack move. mutas should retain the spread formation
click to move next to or past the thor
once all mutas are in range to attack thor, attack it. very few will take damage from splash. if you want/have time, you can individually split them up for better damage control
If you however just attack move from afar at a thor, they'll all attack when they get in range (obviously!), which makes them all stack up in small arc and get completely owned
Interesting.
I did my own tests and thors are slightly better than presplash but significantly worse from the previous patch. In larger numbers they are still quite strong vs mutas because larger armies = more clump = more splash. I did observe that if mutas are spread out so that they don't overlap there appears to be no splash at all.
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On May 13 2010 02:22 Floophead_III wrote:
Interesting.
I did my own tests and thors are slightly better than presplash but significantly worse from the previous patch. In larger numbers they are still quite strong vs mutas because larger armies = more clump = more splash. I did observe that if mutas are spread out so that they don't overlap there appears to be no splash at all.
I just did a similar test. 5 Mutas vs. 1 Thor. I found the same result, if the Mutalisks are not clumped together and spread out then they take no spash damage.
They also do not have to be far from each other, the splash radius seems very small compared to how slowly the thor fires.
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I've had similar experiences with the thor as I used them pretty extensively pre-patch. For whatever reason it seems like the splash only really hits like in the example Zelniq described. I don't know if Blizzard thought they were buffing them with this change or what, but to me it definitely seems like a nerf, albeit slight. Some people are posting about being able to dodge the splash of the missiles if you flew away fast enough(??), but I never experienced that pre-patch 11. Makes me sad, Thor is my favorite unit.
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Here is my answer to mutalisks. Thank god for rednecks in space!
![[image loading]](http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/7016/airbat.jpg)
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Oh my God, I read these threads and realize we need to have a SC2 section restricted to 1400+ plat players.
Seriously? The new splash is a NERF? You guys NEED to be playing WAY MORE than 1 game where you rush out 2 thors with 5 maruaders and get destroyed by 10 muta and 20 roach before you come here crying about OPed. The new splash is HUUUUUGE buff, and thors DEMOLISH air, especially if you have a few 'rines with your thors.
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On May 13 2010 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
Oh my God, I read these threads and realize we need to have a SC2 section restricted to 1400+ plat players.
Seriously? The new splash is a NERF? You guys NEED to be playing WAY MORE than 1 game where you rush out 2 thors with 5 maruaders and get destroyed by 10 muta and 20 roach before you come here crying about OPed. The new splash is HUUUUUGE buff, and thors DEMOLISH air, especially if you have a few 'rines with your thors.
Several of the posters in this thread are well respected members of the community, and thought of as excellent players.
No one is crying nerf, they are discussing the changes to the way splash damage is calculated for air units. Specifically Thor vs. Mutalisk.
The new patch makes it much easier to dodge splash if you are moving, or spread out. That is what they have found.
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On May 13 2010 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
Oh my God, I read these threads and realize we need to have a SC2 section restricted to 1400+ plat players.
Seriously? The new splash is a NERF? You guys NEED to be playing WAY MORE than 1 game where you rush out 2 thors with 5 maruaders and get destroyed by 10 muta and 20 roach before you come here crying about OPed. The new splash is HUUUUUGE buff, and thors DEMOLISH air, especially if you have a few 'rines with your thors.
Troll much?
I too have noticed that Thors are much much worse against air compared to the previous patch. The new splash change doesn't seem to have been implemented correctly.
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On May 13 2010 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
Oh my God, I read these threads and realize we need to have a SC2 section restricted to 1400+ plat players.
Seriously? The new splash is a NERF? You guys NEED to be playing WAY MORE than 1 game where you rush out 2 thors with 5 maruaders and get destroyed by 10 muta and 20 roach before you come here crying about OPed. The new splash is HUUUUUGE buff, and thors DEMOLISH air, especially if you have a few 'rines with your thors.
good cause you wont' be able to post in it.
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Does anyone actually know what they changed in the mechanic of how the splash worked, it seems vague.
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On May 13 2010 04:00 Zurles wrote:
Does anyone actually know what they changed in the mechanic of how the splash worked, it seems vague.
To my understanding: splash damage used to hit a point (on the ground) in front of the target unit. The splash originated from that point. So for ground units, if you were moving very fast you could dodge a lot of the splash.
Now, the splash originates from the center of the target unit. Which makes ground based splash very powerful but seems to be weaker vs. air.
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Russian Federation396 Posts
On May 13 2010 01:34 deepfield1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 01:27 AssuredVacancy wrote:
Seems to me that they still demolish mutas. This.
+1
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On May 13 2010 03:58 Trowabarton756 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
Oh my God, I read these threads and realize we need to have a SC2 section restricted to 1400+ plat players.
Seriously? The new splash is a NERF? You guys NEED to be playing WAY MORE than 1 game where you rush out 2 thors with 5 maruaders and get destroyed by 10 muta and 20 roach before you come here crying about OPed. The new splash is HUUUUUGE buff, and thors DEMOLISH air, especially if you have a few 'rines with your thors. good cause you wont' be able to post in it.
Also like how he pointed out 1400+ and not 1500 or 1600-1700+. I'm sure he's in that 1400 range :p just a hunch heh.
Also, thors still seem to own muta's, I've been using them post patch and they still rock them.
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My interpretation of the new splash rule is identical to Morrow's - the damage now follows the unit instead of emanating from the location. For non-instant impact spash, it should be more consistent than before, but there are conceivable situations in which it would do worse - for example, if you used to move mutas INTO the impact location, which would've caused more of them to be splashed than now.
For instant impact splash, it is entirely dependent on where the splash radius used to be, as there shouldn't be that much of a difference if the splash radius was directly on top of the unit and the damage was instant. But, the fact that it emanated from a location *near* the unit implies to me that it wasn't ontop of the unit. This would lead to greater splash for instant impact in situations where you aren't moving your units right on top of the splash location.
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On May 13 2010 04:05 Azarkon wrote:
My interpretation of the new splash rule is identical to Morrow's - the damage now follows the unit instead of emanating from the location. For non-instant impact spash, it should be more consistent than before, but there are conceivable situations in which it would do worse - for example, if you used to move mutas INTO the impact location, which would've caused more of them to be splashed than now.
For instant impact splash, it is entirely dependent on where the splash radius used to be, as there shouldn't be that much of a difference if the splash radius was directly on top of the unit and the damage was instant. But, the fact that it emanated from a location *near* the unit implies to me that it wasn't ontop of the unit. This would lead to greater splash for instant impact in situations where you aren't moving your units right on top of the splash location.
I think your point with moving into the splash is exactly what is happening. A lot of Zergs, including myself will have their mutas bunched all up and as soon as those initial 4 missiles from the Thor hits you, you will pull back with your mutas. But those initial 4 missiles still all hit all my mutalisks, because they are engaging in the battle.
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If your complaining about Thors Vs Muta Then you have problems. Thors rape. The change is very slight.
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Thors own muta, they suck vs Broodlord and VR, Thor is kinda a good unit but for it to be usefull you need some svc repairing like maniacs
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Overall i think splash change (to all units) is theoretically a buff but in some cases it may be a nerf like in the case of an ultralisk. For example, ultras are so big that the splash won't hit any other units.
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Scotland3152 Posts
The splash change more affects siege tanks, which are almost overpowered now. I haven't noticed a huge difference in Thor vs Muta, but I could be wrong.
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Just tested it, only when they stack while moving will splash hit multiple mutas. Any kind of normal firing when mutas aren't stacking will only hit one muta.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KbSHM.gif)
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The splash damage in the case of the thor was a nerf if the mutas aren't stacked much. Before the patch units would hit another unit (splash damage wise) on the edge of the hitbox that's facing them. If the mutas are stacked up perfect, then no change. If they're not stacked and off slightly then some will miss. Remember the splash damage range is 0.5. Smaller than the archon's old splash.
![[image loading]](http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii116/Chro_photos/splashdamage-1.jpg)
Sorry the color is so bad. The smaller circle around the M is black. Circle to the right is blue.
This is why siege tanks would kill your own units so well. If a zelot was attacking your marine then the splash would generate from the edge of the zelot facing your tank. Your units were basically tanking full splash damage. Now splash damage will hit the center of your target no matter what direction you're attacking from. At least this is how i took the changes....
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On May 13 2010 06:11 Lobo2me wrote:Just tested it, only when they stack while moving will splash hit multiple mutas. Any kind of normal firing when mutas aren't stacking will only hit one muta.
Wow the splash radius is really just tiny.
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On May 13 2010 06:11 Lobo2me wrote:
Just tested it, only when they stack while moving will splash hit multiple mutas. Any kind of normal firing when mutas aren't stacking will only hit one muta.
I "tested" this in a ladder game and had the same experience. Even if you right click on the Thor, the Muta will go up to range and spread out super-fast so that the Thor will attack one Muta at a time.
People saying that the Thor is good against Muta are full of it or are playing Zergs with bad micro. I am waaaaay more scared of Marines than Thor with Muta.
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On May 13 2010 06:27 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 06:11 Lobo2me wrote:
Just tested it, only when they stack while moving will splash hit multiple mutas. Any kind of normal firing when mutas aren't stacking will only hit one muta.
I "tested" this in a ladder game and had the same experience. Even if you right click on the Thor, the Muta will go up to range and spread out super-fast so that the Thor will attack one Muta at a time. People saying that the Thor is good against Muta are full of it or are playing Zergs with bad micro. I am waaaaay more scared of Marines than Thor with Muta.
If it's something like 16 mutas attacking one thor they will stack a bit on each other, but 9 mutas can stand in a 90 degree arc and none of them will be close enough to each other that thor will splash. Basically the thor is hoping for mutas to be on the move to be able to do some decent splash damage (when 9 mutas and a thor attacked each other instead of thor engaging the thor had a few tries where he was able to hit 4 mutas at the same time on first volley).
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So basically Thor air splash is almost useless right now? If I look at the animated gif, it sure look like it. This weapon needs fine-tuning.
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Thors are not very strong versus mutalisks right now.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 13 2010 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
Oh my God, I read these threads and realize we need to have a SC2 section restricted to 1400+ plat players.
Seriously? The new splash is a NERF? You guys NEED to be playing WAY MORE than 1 game where you rush out 2 thors with 5 maruaders and get destroyed by 10 muta and 20 roach before you come here crying about OPed. The new splash is HUUUUUGE buff, and thors DEMOLISH air, especially if you have a few 'rines with your thors.
You do realize that Morrow is probably one of the best Terrans in the world atm, right?
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so this makes colossi worse too?
oh wait never mind
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as soon as Thors come into play it gets VERY tough for Zerg to do anything at all , Thors are too good vs mutas... not to mention if he brought SCVs to repair!
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On May 13 2010 06:53 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 03:32 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
Oh my God, I read these threads and realize we need to have a SC2 section restricted to 1400+ plat players.
Seriously? The new splash is a NERF? You guys NEED to be playing WAY MORE than 1 game where you rush out 2 thors with 5 maruaders and get destroyed by 10 muta and 20 roach before you come here crying about OPed. The new splash is HUUUUUGE buff, and thors DEMOLISH air, especially if you have a few 'rines with your thors. You do realize that Morrow is probably one of the best Terrans in the world atm, right?
+1
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On May 13 2010 07:08 MoXiScH wrote:
+1
Posts like these are frowned upon on this forum, I'd advise against it in the future, unless you enjoy bans.
On topic, good to see some people put the work into confirming my assumptions that it was indeed a nerf to Thor's splash. Thanks! So basically Thor's gone from being completely terrible against what it 'supposedly' counters > to being really effective(with the addition of splash dmg) > to now being only effective when they are flying in/away and somewhat clumped. Sad days for my fav unit. 
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whether they utterly rape mutas or not, thors are very strong units already
marines and turrets already counter mutas well, and muta usage is nearly non-existent in this game
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How does the change in splash affect siege tanks? Can someone make a gif/video? I can't watch replays on the computer I haave.
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On May 13 2010 08:19 jamvng wrote:
How does the change in splash affect siege tanks? Can someone make a gif/video? I can't watch replays on the computer I haave.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Piquq.gif)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img28.imageshack.us/i/airbat.jpg/)
