EPTTraining Camp in Arizona - Page 34
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TelecoM
United States10646 Posts
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
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epik640x
United States1134 Posts
I think of many worse ways of spending $250. Also, no one is forcing you to do this. You act like they offered you help and then surprised you with a bill. And you have no idea whether or not these guys have teaching experience so you're just making shit up just to be insulting. You also generalize hugely at saying "i play games as recreation". Again, that's "you". Whether or not someone wants to play for fun or just compete is irrelevant if they deem this experience to be worth the money. And these guys aren't seeking to exploit anyone, douchebag. They are lessons like lessons in anything else. Go tell the millions taking golf lessons they should just read and play to get better. I don't know if you're just bitter that you can't afford things or jealous about people skilled enough at something to offer lessons but there was absolutely no reason for you to post here and it's only been a display of ignorance. | ||
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
Another thing that bothers me is that these people, while good at the game, are not any better than players that exist and are willing to answer your questions for free. Day9 for example is always open to questions and always answers your questions. His expertise is arguably even more valuable than what team eG has to offer. Anything that these players know can already be found in existing archives. There are many replays, commentaries, casted tournament VODs already out there. While these teachers can correct your posture by slapping your wrists every time you slouch, I assure you, that if you were hard working enough to earn $250 you are hard working enough to look up how to sit-up straight on wikipedia. Aka, you are hard working enough to save your $250 for something more worthwhile and watch your own replays, do your own analysis and read up on your own homework. $250 is at least 12+ hours of labour for any of us average gamers either in University or high-school or what-not. Imagine paying yourself $250 and spending 12 hours on game play analysis and see how far you go. If that still does not help then I'm not sure you'll benefit from these players advice. I have nothing wrong with people offering to the community and I understand that most of the time, services are not free. I have no problem with people making money off of this. What I do have a problem with is that, the people that are spending $250 on something like this may end up regretting because most of the time in this exact situation, you can teach yourself much better than anybody else can teach you. gl hf.... hopefully those that end up going will share with the rest of the community what secrets these players have that will make you a great player and provide feedback for future customers as to whether or not this is a good or bad product. | ||
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sOvrn
United States678 Posts
On May 28 2010 20:15 Paramore wrote: What I do have a problem with is that, the people that are spending $250 on something like this may end up regretting because most of the time in this exact situation, you can teach yourself much better than anybody else can teach you. You can't really have a problem with that dude. People are free to spend their money how they see fit. I think most people that read this share your sentiment, and do not pay for these services, but there are those who do. It's really not fair to critique this unless you can say without a doubt that the people running this are giving customers the shaft. For all I know, these trainers could give invaluable tips that are better taught in person and thus the services are great for those who pay. Imo, don't let this bother you. The OP is posting an offer for services and your role is either to accept or decline. If you don't like it, then move on. | ||
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
On May 28 2010 20:01 epik640x wrote: lilclinkin, I think of many worse ways of spending $250. Also, no one is forcing you to do this. You act like they offered you help and then surprised you with a bill. And you have no idea whether or not these guys have teaching experience so you're just making shit up just to be insulting. You also generalize hugely at saying "i play games as recreation". Again, that's "you". Whether or not someone wants to play for fun or just compete is irrelevant if they deem this experience to be worth the money. And these guys aren't seeking to exploit anyone, douchebag. They are lessons like lessons in anything else. Go tell the millions taking golf lessons they should just read and play to get better. I don't know if you're just bitter that you can't afford things or jealous about people skilled enough at something to offer lessons but there was absolutely no reason for you to post here and it's only been a display of ignorance. I disagree. As opposed to him stating his opinion, you're the one that's actually flaming and I'd rather read his post than yours (why you calling people douchbags?). No, he's not the only person play games for recreation actually. But you are right, golf lessons have anything to do with starcraft when his point is that the value of the service is low because the replays, discussions and competition is available for free. That's exactly how golf is too, right? I'm not going to rain on their parade but I do agree with lilclinkin. I'd even go so far as to suggest that this is the product of WoW. A bunch of gamers who have now forgotten or never knew what a normal gaming community is like. Where they don't evaluate each other based on how much they can gain by associating together. At the end of the day, I think it is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. If $250.00 is for socializing purposes, make some fucking friends have a weekend lan. If $250.00 is for "classes in SC2" then lilclinkin is absolutely right about the free resources. But what do I know? I'm just some jealous dude that runs a business that actually provides value to the customer they couldn't get for free online. | ||
KwarK
United States41938 Posts
On May 19 2010 04:43 funk100 wrote: living in the UK sucks. wait, are there any uk training camps planned? Yes, earlier in the thread I made an offer to come to peoples' houses and make them suck less in exchange for expenses, pizza and beer. | ||
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
On May 28 2010 20:28 Sultan.P wrote: You can't really have a problem with that dude. People are free to spend their money how they see fit. I think most people that read this share your sentiment, and do not pay for these services, but there are those who do. It's really not fair to critique this unless you can say without a doubt that the people running this are giving customers the shaft. For all I know, these trainers could give invaluable tips that are better taught in person and thus the services are great for those who pay. Imo, don't let this bother you. The OP is posting an offer for services and your role is either to accept or decline. If you don't like it, then move on. I think anyone can have a problem with that because of his opening sentence: "I think people should help each other instead of hoard information and try and sell it." This is cheapening the community. Sure, your reasoning is fine and they can do what they want if people want to spend their money. But this affects the community as a whole, not just them and their clients. Whether they can do it is obvious: yes. Whether they should and whether its adding value to the community is a whole other issue. This is a bit silly to be honest. You take a look at a few events that lead up to this and it might make a bit of sense. But you step back and realize that outside of this circle, this "service" is ridiculous. These events may be: - WoW's terrible community and shitty guilds that promote this sort of exploitation and share it with other games (Bnet) - SC2's tedious ass gameplay that makes these "classes" possible. SC2 is a game (supposedly) and this whole thread and debate is depressing. This isn't the kind of community we should be encouraging. It's just a little thing now, but these little things add up and add up until the community is complete shit not just here or now but in future games for future players. But anyways, make sure to bring your papers with you if you do sign up just in case the Arizona police violate your 4th amendment. | ||
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LilClinkin
Australia667 Posts
On May 28 2010 20:01 epik640x wrote: lilclinkin, I think of many worse ways of spending $250. Also, no one is forcing you to do this. You act like they offered you help and then surprised you with a bill. And you have no idea whether or not these guys have teaching experience so you're just making shit up just to be insulting. You also generalize hugely at saying "i play games as recreation". Again, that's "you". Whether or not someone wants to play for fun or just compete is irrelevant if they deem this experience to be worth the money. And these guys aren't seeking to exploit anyone, douchebag. They are lessons like lessons in anything else. Go tell the millions taking golf lessons they should just read and play to get better. I don't know if you're just bitter that you can't afford things or jealous about people skilled enough at something to offer lessons but there was absolutely no reason for you to post here and it's only been a display of ignorance. I know no one is forcing me to accept this offer. But I'm sure there are people whose eyes lit up at the suggestion without actually realising what a scam this is. Thus, I feel the need to call the BS siren. If I was a mod on these forums I would actually ban the OP for using tl.net as an out-let to freely advertise this "service" for their own profiteering gain. Why are you welcoming these sort of people who profess to possess abundances of knowledge and skill about a game that we all freely discuss and share advice on, yet they aren't willing to reciprocate unless we pay a price? Please do not use the argument that they are "giving up their time" to teach us, as we ALL give up our time every minute we spend playing starcraft or discussing it on these forums. Everyone plays games for recreation. The only people who don't are pro-gamers, as they are paid to do it. Those pro-gamers were previously recreational players as well, before it became their job. Recreational does not exclude competition. Please learn the definition of a word before you use it as a point for debate. Finally, comparing this $250 service to a golfing lesson is absurd, for obvious reasons. Why does the service cost $250 anyway? What does this include? Is the accommodation included? Is food and drink included? Whose hardware do I use? Do I have to bring my own? How much additional is it going to cost just to arrive at the destination? What sort of legal responsibility do these guys owe to me for paying them this service? If I was to become injured during these 3 days under circumstances due to their negligence, who is going to be responsible? Why should any one have to lay down $250 (without knowing exactly what this fee entails, or why it is set at that price) for a service which doesn't seem to require any over-head compensatory costs, is unaccredited, unproven, and is abundantly available FOR FREE? Why pay a single cent to these guys when you can log on to bnet at any time and play SC from the comfort of your own home without having to adhere to some strangely fabricated regiment? Why would you pay $250 to meet these guys when you can pay $2/hour to go to your local LAN with your friends and meet countless other people who share your passion for gaming and play SC or any other game on offer? | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On May 29 2010 00:41 LilClinkin wrote: + Show Spoiler + I know no one is forcing me to accept this offer. But I'm sure there are people whose eyes lit up at the suggestion without actually realising what a scam this is. Thus, I feel the need to call the BS siren. If I was a mod on these forums I would actually ban the OP for using tl.net as an out-let to freely advertise this "service" for their own profiteering gain. Why are you welcoming these sort of people who profess to possess abundances of knowledge and skill about a game that we all freely discuss and share advice on, yet they aren't willing to reciprocate unless we pay a price? Please do not use the argument that they are "giving up their time" to teach us, as we ALL give up our time every minute we spend playing starcraft or discussing it on these forums. Everyone plays games for recreation. The only people who don't are pro-gamers, as they are paid to do it. Those pro-gamers were previously recreational players as well, before it became their job. Recreational does not exclude competition. Please learn the definition of a word before you use it as a point for debate. Finally, comparing this $250 service to a golfing lesson is absurd, for obvious reasons. Why does the service cost $250 anyway? What does this include? Is the accommodation included? Is food and drink included? Whose hardware do I use? Do I have to bring my own? How much additional is it going to cost just to arrive at the destination? What sort of legal responsibility do these guys owe to me for paying them this service? If I was to become injured during these 3 days under circumstances due to their negligence, who is going to be responsible? Why should any one have to lay down $250 (without knowing exactly what this fee entails, or why it is set at that price) for a service which doesn't seem to require any over-head compensatory costs, is unaccredited, unproven, and is abundantly available FOR FREE? Why pay a single cent to these guys when you can log on to bnet at any time and play SC from the comfort of your own home without having to adhere to some strangely fabricated regiment? Why would you pay $250 to meet these guys when you can pay $2/hour to go to your local LAN with your friends and meet countless other people who share your passion for gaming and play SC or any other game on offer? Maybe because the people at GosuCoaching are amazing and to meet them is an honor?  | ||
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iheartpurplez
Canada54 Posts
On May 10 2010 18:05 {88}iNcontroL wrote: We do however offer amazing alternative pizza eating methods, 0 sleep giggle fests and more than a little dexter watching. i would go just for those reasons. it sounds sooo fun and amazing. maybe if i win the lottery sometime soon i will attend . | ||
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BillyMole
United States118 Posts
Frankly, I don't know why it's acceptable to flame the service in it's own thread. Would you walk into a gym and yell at the members that they should be running on their own rather than paying a membership fee? | ||
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dangots0ul
United States919 Posts
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brocoli
Brazil264 Posts
If you think it is a bad deal, then you don't buy it, however this is most obviously a legitimate offer. I personally wouldn't go (even if I was in the US), because I like to learn by myself, and I don't like this kind of camp in general (and I think they're inevitably a bit on the expensive side). However there's a lot of people who could use this to its fullest; and I commend these guys for having the innitiative of starting such a risky and complicated business. Also, I think it is pretty obvious that it is in TL's interest to have these services be announced in their forums. | ||
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goneim
China201 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43763 Posts
On May 28 2010 15:57 LilClinkin wrote: Sign me up. I can't think of a better way to spend $250 than to give it to a group of un-accredited "teachers" with 0 real-life experience in teaching anything to any one. This goes against the entire purpose of why I (and many others) play games: as recreation, not as a 2nd school. It is also insulting to consider how you seek to exploit your prowess at a popular game in order to make money off of those who are seeking to improve. Here's a hint for any one vaguely considering attending this camp: Every resource you need to become better at SC2 is right at your finger tips, for free. Log on to b.net, and start playing games. Repetition and exposure to a variety of different players and strategies is what you need to develop the motor neuronal connections and cognitive thinking reflexes play and adapt more appropriately to win games of SC. Sitting in a lecture delivered by an adolescent/early 20s some one who spent the better half of their teen years playing computer games is not going to help you improve more quickly or reveal to you any secret knowledge that you couldn't get by 1. digging around sc forums or 2. playing sc in the comfort and freedom of your own home.  Surely, you've already read this entire thread and recognized how useless posts like yours are? It's tutoring, just like in any activity or subject. While you *could* just read stuff online and watch replays, getting one-on-one tutoring services from people who are well-known for being good at their specific subject is always going to be much better. This has always been the case, whether it's tennis lessons, math tutoring, or even learning to improve in a video game. If this WASN'T the case, then teachers WOULDN'T have a job. Students would file into a classroom and read books all day, without having instructors. And if you don't like what they're doing, then you don't need to go to the camp. Bad-mouthing them isn't necessary; clearly plenty of people are interested in it. | ||
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BillyMole
United States118 Posts
On May 29 2010 03:01 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Surely, you've already read this entire thread and recognized how useless posts like yours are? It's tutoring, just like in any activity or subject. While you *could* just read stuff online and watch replays, getting one-on-one tutoring services from people who are well-known for being good at their specific subject is always going to be much better. This has always been the case, whether it's tennis lessons, math tutoring, or even learning to improve in a video game. If this WASN'T the case, then teachers WOULDN'T have a job. Students would file into a classroom and read books all day, without having instructors. And if you don't like what they're doing, then you don't need to go to the camp. Bad-mouthing them isn't necessary; clearly plenty of people are interested in it. Very true. Bottom line is, it doesn't matter how much people flame these guys, it's abundantly clear that they have more than enough people interested. You need look no farther for proof of this than their application process. They are interviewing applicants and choosing the ones they think will benefit the most, which makes it clear that they have a limited number of seats, and way too many applicants. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43763 Posts
On May 29 2010 03:14 BillyMole wrote: Very true. Bottom line is, it doesn't matter how much people flame these guys, it's abundantly clear that they have more than enough people interested. You need look no farther for proof of this than their application process. They are interviewing applicants and choosing the ones they think will benefit the most, which makes it clear that they have a limited number of seats, and way too many applicants. Right, and the price is RIDICULOUSLY cheap. $250 for the entire weekend, which includes 27 hours of tutoring services. That's less than $10/hour! | ||
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sOvrn
United States678 Posts
On May 28 2010 20:48 Vexx wrote: I think anyone can have a problem with that because of his opening sentence: "I think people should help each other instead of hoard information and try and sell it." This is cheapening the community. Sure, your reasoning is fine and they can do what they want if people want to spend their money. But this affects the community as a whole, not just them and their clients. Whether they can do it is obvious: yes. Whether they should and whether its adding value to the community is a whole other issue. Problem with this train of thought is that it's completely subjective: You think people should do whatever but you can't control these decisions, and you shouldn't be able to. A poster mentioned above that it has been proven that these types of services increase gameplay skill dramatically, which is what these ppl are paying for. Taking his word in good faith, I really see no problem with these top players selling their "know how" to ppl willing to pay. The seller is happy, the buyer is happy and everything is great. I don't understand why you think that these lessons should be posted for free - whether you acknowledge it or not this is labor produced by the trainer and does have a price, and a low one at that. Furthermore, you say that this cheapens the community and affects it as a whole, but I'm not so sure. Besides not really being able to understand what you're trying to say, wouldn't this increase the pool of better players in SC2 and therefore enhance quality gameplay? Wouldn't this be better for the community? The only way that you're position can be successful is if no one decided to purchase these services, but it's obvious that there are people willing to do this. End of story. You may think it's ridiculous that these kind of services are available, but that's your opinion. It's like saying Kaplan shouldn't offer it's services for test taking preparations because, in the end, you can discover the common trends by looking at previous exams and you can also learn all the material tested by studying other books. Concluding, if you don't like the offer then don't accept it. Even if this does "cheapen" the community (which is not really explained how and could possibly have the opposite effect), there's really nothing you CAN do about it as there are people who are willing to buy the service. People really need to stop hating, just because you think the service is lame, this does not put you in a position to dictate what the substance of a contract for services should be between two parties. | ||
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s h 1 k 4 i
United States21 Posts
On May 29 2010 09:34 Sultan.P wrote: Problem with this train of thought is that it's completely subjective: You think people should do whatever but you can't control these decisions, and you shouldn't be able to. A poster mentioned above that it has been proven that these types of services increase gameplay skill dramatically, which is what these ppl are paying for. Taking his word in good faith, I really see no problem with these top players selling their "know how" to ppl willing to pay. The seller is happy, the buyer is happy and everything is great. I don't understand why you think that these lessons should be posted for free - whether you acknowledge it or not this is labor produced by the trainer and does have a price, and a low one at that. Furthermore, you say that this cheapens the community and affects it as a whole, but I'm not so sure. Besides not really being able to understand what you're trying to say, wouldn't this increase the pool of better players in SC2 and therefore enhance quality gameplay? Wouldn't this be better for the community? The only way that you're position can be successful is if no one decided to purchase these services, but it's obvious that there are people willing to do this. End of story. You may think it's ridiculous that these kind of services are available, but that's your opinion. It's like saying Kaplan shouldn't offer it's services for test taking preparations because, in the end, you can discover the common trends by looking at previous exams and you can also learn all the material tested by studying other books. Concluding, if you don't like the offer then don't accept it. Even if this does "cheapen" the community (which is not really explained how and could possibly have the opposite effect), there's really nothing you CAN do about it as there are people who are willing to buy the service. People really need to stop hating, just because you think the service is lame, this does not put you in a position to dictate what the substance of a contract for services should be between two parties. Since when was it a problem to post your opinion on a forum? Isn't the whole purpose of a forum to exchange ideas/opinions on different topics? If you disagree, then explain why you disagree. Don't attack the fact that his post was an opinion. If the above posters felt like they were obligated to warn people of their thoughts on the camp, then they have every right to do that. It's not like TL.net is owned and moderated by eG. And following in a similar spirit, Kaplan/Princeton Review/etc. ARE essentially scams. They prey on parents that believe that spending thousands of dollars on "test-taking tricks" will get their kids into better colleges. And yes, that is my opinion and completely subjective. Take of it what you will. | ||
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