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On May 07 2010 06:34 snowdrift86 wrote:Haha watching it on a stream ingame is even more ridiculous. Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote:
Honestly, I agree with Nazgul. People seem to really want SC1-style moving shot only because they have to push more buttons. Sure, let's purposefully inhibit the new, more powerful engine just so you have something to waste your time microing your units in a game where macro has become more important. Waste your time microing? Why do you even play the game? Microing is fun. And might as well automate every unit's behavior so as to not "inhibit" the engine.
Except hard-counters make up the game in its current state. If you don't properly macro/are even slightly delayed while macroing, you'll lose.
Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine.
Also, for some reason, people think anything related to the "Move" command isn't micro. If you can explain how perfectly timing your switches (due to the unit in question having a higher movement speed) and getting as many shots off as possible without being hit yourself is not micro, I'll give you a cookie.
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On May 07 2010 06:14 NiiPPLES wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 06:07 CheAse wrote:
i just played a tvz with hellions... I could l just harass the roaches on the ramp until they died to go harass probes that makes absolutely no sense
How does It not make sense? Hellions range was increased by one (6) which doubles the range of roaches now. T's can harass Z's ramp blocked by Roaches early game. Not too complicated :O
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If they want to implement the moving shot from BW like this then they should do the same thing for every unit, since it wasn't just a specific mechanic for only 1 unit in BW.
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On May 07 2010 06:36 bongjwa wrote:
guys blizzard fucking knows what the difference between a moving shot is and what moving while shooting is. they know way more than you ever will about the game. they are trying something new, giving the phoenix the terran cobra's mechanics, and seeing what happens.
all these mods and people flipping out is hilarious
Agreed.
They obviously wanna try something new instead of changing the values for turning speed and acceleration/deceleration.
(Look at the map editor if you wanna play with the values)
Whether it will work in the long run or not I don't claim to know.
What I do know is I want to see some Youtube'd matches with lots of Phoenix now!
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Oh I know what I'll do when P goes phoenixes, I'll just make more of that awesome Zerg AA, or some spores which take 12 sec to move if they ever need to root. Oh but I forgot about queens, those phoenixes will totally get rolled by my queens, RIGHT? lololol
Basically ZvP = really fast hydras or die. And then hydras still get gravbeamed.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On May 07 2010 06:14 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Someone please tell Blizzard that when we say moving shoot, we really mean Animation Cancelling.
EDIT: Although I guess patrol micro and moving shot isn't really the same thing - -
Yep this is a perfect description.
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On May 07 2010 06:45 lololol wrote:
If they want to implement the moving shot from BW like this then they should do the same thing for every unit, since it wasn't just a specific mechanic for only 1 unit in BW.
Maybe they felt only the Phoenix truly needed it? The Phoenix was, after all, the only one of the AA units that was generally conceived as underpowered, unneeded, and unpopular (I liked it myself, and I know people like Nony did, too; however, the general community didn't share that thought)
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The problem I think Blizzard are having, is that their engine is designed to have air units turn around their axis and aim while moving (in whatever direction they were previously heading).
It could perhaps be fixed if they forced the phoenix to actually face and accelerate towards its enemy before being able to fire (as you had to do in BW). And simply make them more responsive in the sense that they turn around faster with retained speed after having fired.
I don't think it's fair to say Blizzard haven't caught on to the fact that moving shot requires animation cancelling. I mean look at how fluidly the phoenix is moving right now. That wouldn't be possible without shortening its animation. They already cancelled what they could cancel of the firing animation. I think the problem lies with how the game is coded. They fixed "moving shot" and cancelled much of the animation, but because the game allows units to turn around their axis it doesn't look or feel right.
In brood war, even if you did patrol micro, your units had to turn and accelerate towards your enemy for the split second it required them to fire. However, they were more responsive when it came to maneuverability and turning around immediately with retained speed.
I don't know though. Shouldn't be too hard on this change without at least trying it out for a while.
*Edit: I should say I don't actually know if you can change the direction of the phoenix while it's gliding now. In that case it might still be an animation issue.
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On May 07 2010 06:44 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 06:34 snowdrift86 wrote:Haha watching it on a stream ingame is even more ridiculous. On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote:
Honestly, I agree with Nazgul. People seem to really want SC1-style moving shot only because they have to push more buttons. Sure, let's purposefully inhibit the new, more powerful engine just so you have something to waste your time microing your units in a game where macro has become more important. Waste your time microing? Why do you even play the game? Microing is fun. And might as well automate every unit's behavior so as to not "inhibit" the engine. Except hard-counters make up the game in its current state. If you don't properly macro/are even slightly delayed while macroing, you'll lose. Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine. Also, for some reason, people think anything related to the "Move" command isn't micro. If you can explain how perfectly timing your switches (due to the unit in question having a higher movement speed) and getting as many shots off as possible without being hit yourself is not micro, I'll give you a cookie.
Sorry to reign on the pseudo-intellectual vibe you got going on here, but I'd like you to really read your own posts before making new ones.
And by this I mean infer all the implications of what you're saying, really read between the lines at what you're suggesting.
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On May 07 2010 06:14 mahnini wrote:
this is the most terrible change i've ever seen.
If it is true that you simply right click move away without patrol/attack/hold moving...then this is indeed the worst change this patch. It makes it EASYMODE.
as said, moving shot is not = right click and the unit attack/moves for you while you stay out of range infinitely. Any fucking noob can do that Blizzard.
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On May 07 2010 06:28 LunarC wrote:I's bear in mind, not bare in mind. Wrong expression 
you missed a 't' there sport
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On May 07 2010 06:22 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
People are overreacting. This looks like still takes a lot of clicking since phoenix' don't fly at the same speed as other units nor will other units follow blindly. The only thing that's missing is using keyboard keys for it but that's pretty much the easiest part of micro anyway, the constant clicking will probably keep people busy anyways. At the very least give it a shot in some real games see if it's that easy.
If it's so easy it's overpowered I'm sure Blizzard will change it, but I doubt that's the case because phoenix is not a core unit but a counter unit it will never dictate games due to it countering stronger.
It IS easy though. It is so super easy that even a noob will have no trouble mastering it.
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There is some definate need to establish clearly defined definitions for all this.
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On May 07 2010 06:44 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2010 06:34 snowdrift86 wrote:Haha watching it on a stream ingame is even more ridiculous. On May 07 2010 06:31 Zeke50100 wrote:
Honestly, I agree with Nazgul. People seem to really want SC1-style moving shot only because they have to push more buttons. Sure, let's purposefully inhibit the new, more powerful engine just so you have something to waste your time microing your units in a game where macro has become more important. Waste your time microing? Why do you even play the game? Microing is fun. And might as well automate every unit's behavior so as to not "inhibit" the engine. Except hard-counters make up the game in its current state. If you don't properly macro/are even slightly delayed while macroing, you'll lose. Also, automating everything =/= uninhibiting the engine. Inhibiting the engine is making an adjustment to unnecessarily make the game harder for the player when they could initially do said thing easier without automating the game for them. You could NEVER initially move-shoot with Phoenixes. Changing that to a "click P, A, H, S, then Click" system would be inhibiting the engine. Also, for some reason, people think anything related to the "Move" command isn't micro. If you can explain how perfectly timing your switches (due to the unit in question having a higher movement speed) and getting as many shots off as possible without being hit yourself is not micro, I'll give you a cookie.
This new "micro" is a joke.
It isn't challenging at all, it's same as the most basic kiting with stalkers vs zealots, for example.
You move your stalkers back when zeals are moving close and once zeals retreat, you chase them.
Except that it doesn't require attack-move command..
You just spam move..
It's like 5 times easier compared to BW.
Phoenix became some sort of moving fortress which automatically attacks units near it, without requiring to attack-move.
This isn't micro
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Everyone should make their own map with phoenixes and mutas (takes like 1 minute) and try it out before posting and saying the phoenix micro is super easy.
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Holy shit.
Mutas suddenly don't look all that scary.
I will wait till I get my hands on this untill I make my final judgement: it looks insane, but without a microing opponent everything does.
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it may not be an animation cancel like BW,
but it takes micro and I could see this being perfected.
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Is this truly all with right click? Its so....effed up...
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Excluding patrol micro you had to be facing and heading towards the opponent before firing. Even with patrol your units would turn around for a split second and change direction (although you could hardly notice it).
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On May 07 2010 06:23 RotterdaM wrote:
sc II aka red alert 4 ^^ getting more sad day by day... but yeah it looks "awesome", it also looks hillarious in a way of a joke, not how it I wanna play a competitive rts ;() hope they fix it, im surprised there are even a few people who are positiv about this o_o
Oh, come on, it is cool and funny and an attention sink and also gives the previously boring unit a unique bad-ass feel.
It's not like phoenixes auto-micro themselves now, you still need to manually maintain the proper distance to kite units. Just why exactly you don't like this?
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EPT
