EPTFully agree, bring the micro back, bring back moving shots. Its beta, lets at least test it out. Or if possible with the map editor make it happen. Then teamliquid should encourage all of its members to try it and make a poll to see what we think.
Oh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 7
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
Fully agree, bring the micro back, bring back moving shots. Its beta, lets at least test it out. Or if possible with the map editor make it happen. Then teamliquid should encourage all of its members to try it and make a poll to see what we think. | ||
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
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ComradeDover
Bulgaria758 Posts
On April 27 2010 09:34 Karas wrote: I also think the last part of your article (where you basically rail on blizzard) is completely unnecessary, and actually detracts from your point. You well have a well written article on your hand that I think you tainted with your last several paragraphs. I would remove the emotion, and focus on your well made points. Like so many articles written on similar subjects, the emotion is at the core of the argument. If this wasn't an opportunity to write how much Blizzard sux and Bowder sux and SC2 sux, I doubt this article would have been written. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On April 27 2010 09:33 Liquid`NonY wrote: Yeah I'm saying he went waaaaaaay too far talking about design philosophy, game engines, how and why SC:BW was such a good game, etc. It was a bunch of bullshit that will make it easy for a Blizzard employee reading it get a bad feeling. A straight article about how the mechanics of moving shot micro worked in SC:BW along with a reason why it was so great for everyone (healthy for competition, fun to use, fun to watch) and a quick proof that it doesn't really exist in SC2 would have been great. Sure, less antagonism would probably do better. Sometimes you just write what it is that you feel though. I think writing it in this way sparks more of a debate and response than keeping it cold and impersonal. Quite honestly, I personally don't like people who attack others the way I did in this article. I'm a person who in most situations prefers to stay objective. But with this one I guess I somehow felt personally offended. I liked brood war so much and I was so disappointed. Emotions aren't all bad you know. Although, in a couple of years time when I look back at this I'll probably think I would have been better off leaving out the Blizzard bashing. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
On April 27 2010 12:00 Random Poster wrote: Yeah! That! That's why I hate SC2! What a failure of a game. There are a couple good points, but as Nony said, it was multitasking that was the hardest part, not the gimmicks themselves. I feel like this is off base and just a rather lengthy rant rather than anything really constructive. There's very little data and a lot of visceral knee-jerking. | ||
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Klyvaren
Sweden26 Posts
I consider myself more micro-oriented then macro, coming from a Warcraft3 background. However, the micro in Starcraft 2 sure is dissapointing, the paragraph handeling the fact that you can never approach an enemy army with and inferior one, since you almost always will "trade blows" ,really got to me. I feel that, if I'm confident about my micro, I want to be able to win games with it. At the moment I don't feel like i can get enough of an edge with it. It boils down to positioning and strategy rather than specific unitcontroll. Blizzards approach on micro seems to be unit abilities. Forcefield, gravaton beam, Snipe, to name a few. While I do like this approach, I feel it comes at a to great of a cost. Namely "dancing" and "Moving shot", which I think was discussed elegantly in the OP. Ps. The most rewarding units to micro IMO right now from a protoss perspective is the Immortal and Void Ray. Immortals feel like they benefit from "dancing", but that might just be my imagination. Ds. | ||
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ComradeDover
Bulgaria758 Posts
On April 27 2010 09:41 LaLuSh wrote: Although, in a couple of years time when I look back at this I'll probably think I would have been better off leaving out the Blizzard bashing. If you have the wisdom to see this now, it shouldn't have to take a couple of years for you to feel bad. >:[ | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On April 27 2010 09:33 Liquid`NonY wrote: Yeah I'm saying he went waaaaaaay too far talking about design philosophy, game engines, how and why SC:BW was such a good game, etc. It was a bunch of bullshit that will make it easy for a Blizzard employee reading it get a bad feeling. A straight article about how the mechanics of moving shot micro worked in SC:BW along with a reason why it was so great for everyone (healthy for competition, fun to use, fun to watch) and a quick proof that it doesn't really exist in SC2 would have been great. This is how I feel about every freaking thread I read about game mechanics. I don't know why people feel so compelled to write a novel about something simple. The fact of the matter is that micro of that nature in BW was a result of a bizarre and unpredictable engine doing weird things with units that people wouldn't have expected. It's not as simple as "give these units that micro capability." It does help to an extent but keep in mind it required a certain level of skill and finger dexterity to effectively micro with patrol or hold position. If you make units microable in that way in SC2 you'll end up with every unit being microable with simple amove/right click stuff. The proper thing to do is go back into the AI itself and change how patrol and hold position affect targeting priorities/speed among other things. | ||
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lolreaper
301 Posts
On April 27 2010 09:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: As the person who actually controls Corsairs and Phoenixes, I disagree. This article is pretty much irrelevant to Protoss players. SC:BW micro wasn't more challenging. The multitasking is the challenging part and SC2 is true to that. Vultures, Mutas, Wraiths -- ok. Yeah they had some challenging and fun micro in BW that depends on moving shot. People would like to see a return of that kind of micro cuz it was like kiting^2. So yeah, give a few units that kind of micro and then re-balance them if needed. please blizzard ... | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On April 27 2010 09:36 Half wrote: I wasn't so much comparing Corsairs to Phoenixes (which I agree is a bit of a flawed comparison), and both weren't incredibly micro intensive, I was just telling that guy that the micro, as you said, super impressive, but rather you played a unique build order he had never seen executed with that degree of finesse in a competitive environment before. I mean, unlike Pheonixes, Mutalisks are used very commonly, and control relatively similarly (In SC2) and I don't think I've ever seen anyone been slightly impressed with Mutalisk micro. Yeah ok I see how you were responding to that guy now. But I think he's kinda saying that he doesn't really care about seeing a specific kind of micro and perhaps even prefers to wait and see what will come of SC2 rather than forcing SC:BW micro into SC2. The only way people know how to micro these units is the way it was done in previous games. We literally try to micro SC2 units like units from other games and then adjust based on the differences. So, people find out that certain old methods of micro don't work in SC2 and they don't know any other way of microing so they say there is no micro. Then they demand that Blizzard replicates the old ways. There is a school of thought that believes 2 months of a closed beta isn't long enough to jump to that solution. The ideal solution is for the new game to have new things that turn out to be just as healthy competitively. | ||
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
Game is really macro orientated and maybe a small step back and adding some micro features will improve it  | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On April 27 2010 08:32 LaLuSh wrote: What if the game - through being coded in a way that gave the player perfect control of one’s units, and thus made the ceiling of the possible infinitely high - in reality balanced itself? ... Protoss Dragoon? This unit can somehow manage to miss - or not fire - when shooting enemies across open ground. To speak nothing of its movement. | ||
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Paperscraps
United States639 Posts
On April 27 2010 09:33 Liquid`NonY wrote: Yeah I'm saying he went waaaaaaay too far talking about design philosophy, game engines, how and why SC:BW was such a good game, etc. It was a bunch of bullshit that will make it easy for a Blizzard employee reading it get a bad feeling. A straight article about how the mechanics of moving shot micro worked in SC:BW along with a reason why it was so great for everyone (healthy for competition, fun to use, fun to watch) and a quick proof that it doesn't really exist in SC2 would have been great. Nony has it right. Informative article with a huge negative bias toward blizzard and specifically Dustin Browder. Take out the emotional fluff and present the argument in a neutral fashion. Then blizzard might look into this situation. Also it may be to early to speculate about micro tactics, who knows what people will discover with this new engine in a year from now? | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
On April 27 2010 09:48 Fanatic-Templar wrote: ... Protoss Dragoon? This unit can somehow manage to miss - or not fire - when shooting enemies across open ground. To speak nothing of its movement. Yeah it could randomly freeze and not respond to any command until it receives a "Stop" command. =[ | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On April 27 2010 09:48 Fanatic-Templar wrote: ... Protoss Dragoon? This unit can somehow manage to miss - or not fire - when shooting enemies across open ground. To speak nothing of its movement. You need to be skilled. Yea a couple of times it can be bugged. But hey that isn't worse than the reaver AI :D This is still the coolest unit to micro in bw with air units and vults. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On April 27 2010 09:48 Fanatic-Templar wrote: ... Protoss Dragoon? This unit can somehow manage to miss - or not fire - when shooting enemies across open ground. To speak nothing of its movement. Well the Dragoon is sort of the inverse of the problem, its so screwed up that the player has to play against the unit. The pheonix isn't at that level yet, its in that middle ground where the player can't play around it and can't play with it. If they made the Pheonix glide for like 4 units when you attacked, it would be a incredibly "skillful" unit to micro, if nonsensically incoherent in its design (and thus shouldn't be replicated) | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12071 Posts
If the hellion had a moving shot it would be so unbelievably overpowered it would be unreal and that's coming from a terran player. I've enjoyed having my slow firing hellion as it relies on me getting the perfect position before they fire, and the whole banshee move shot is invalid as you can easily "scoot and shoot" with them as they have quite a long attack animation. Vikings are fine as they are and the transform is not a gimmick, it goes from being anti air to anti ground in the form of how goliaths worked, they're perfectly fine and personally I think mutas would be overpowered had they been able to fire then move instantly in this game. | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
Should always assume Blizzard is reading these forums and being mannered and serious goes a long way. | ||
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