EPTsome videos to drive the point home
vulture micro
hellion micro
Oh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 33
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joolz
United States67 Posts
some videos to drive the point home vulture micro hellion micro | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On April 28 2010 00:18 MaYuu wrote: If starcraft2 is a "new game" then why don't give it another name, cause IMO starcraft2 does not live up to the name of starcraft This exact same thing was said about Warcraft 3. I suppose it's because Blizzard names their games based on which universe they're set in, as opposed to a nebulous, subjective concept of 'worthiness' and reverence. I'd like to point out that I have no opinion on this matter one way or the other, but I do find the sensationalism and thinly veiled elitism expressed by a small minority of posters to be counter-productive and will result in the point in question being marginalised in the eyes of Blizzard and the wider community. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
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Rokk
United States425 Posts
Sc1 was hands down the best rts ever made. It's lasted over 12 years, most of those with absolutely zero balance changes. Even after all this time when the game has been figured out and there are mathematical proofs on every conceivable opening, there are still handfuls of players that are able to stand far above the rest. The differences between a casual noob, a competitive noob, an average progamer, and a handful of great players whose names you all know is insurmountable. Sc1 is a fast paced, action packed game full of overpowered units that is both fun to watch as well as to play. And now Sc2 is being developed. Obviously you can't just copy everything from the original. No one is arguing that it should be sc1 with better graphics (although I'm sure many of us would buy that too). But that doesn't mean we should ignore everything that was learned from 10 years of sc1. Beyond units, there are a few general lessons to be learned from the success that is sc1. Fast paced games are fun to watch as well as play. Overpowered events make the game nerve-wracking as well as easy to follow. Think of the excitement as a scarab chases down a group of hydras. If it hits, they die. If they're able to run away, it will dud and nothing happens. Stuff under storm dies. Plague covers things in red and they die shortly after. Hold lurkers are easy for a spectator to see and point out and it means everything will die if they pass it. Micro is the key to longevity. The game has long since been solved. There will still be some more build orders that emerge because of the direction the metagame is headed, but in general the game is solved. Yet despite this, the game continues to be exciting because great players are able to differentiate themselves from the pack. And because micro can change the direction of a game, upsets are able to happen a lot easier. One screw up can mean you lose half your army. You need to be able to do more with less. A lot of this falls under micro, but it also relates to positional advantages. Under certain situations, whether because of player skill or because of high ground, or for any other reason, smaller amounts of units need to be able to defeat larger amount of units. This makes every encounter exciting because the result is not predetermined while also allowing players to do more than just mass units. Sc2 should be made with all of these in mind. It is foolish to change things in the game just so that it is different from the original game. The sequel should expand upon what was amazing in the original game while adding additional elements to try to make the experience better. But it seems they've forgotten what made sc1 such a great game. They got the speed right. Sc2 is really fast paced. But they've forgotten what made the units so great -- nearly unlimited potential to do incredible things. Filling a screen with storms was a spectacle to watch. Now everyone can do it. As a result the overall power of storm had to be nerfed, but now it's no longer possible to create those amazing moments where the screen turned blue and all the units evaporated. The reaver was replaced with a unit that still does splash damage, but is basically unmicroable and just a-attacks the opponent from 9 range. The lurker, a unit that required a lot of foresight in position and good micro was just removed. The hydra was moved up in the tech tree and in it's place we got a...hydra that can't attack air and has lower range. The burrow regen mechanic has been nerfed repeatedly to uselessness until it's become an a-move unit. They've neglected the ability to do less with more. Terrain means nothing when you can get one marine on a ramp and suddenly all the units below do 100% damage. Low micro ability means you can't engage until you have nearly the same amount of units as the opponent. There's no doubt that sc2 will be a popular game. It will have tournaments and people will buy it in droves. But years from now we should look at it and ask ourselves, "is starcraft 2 as popular as it is because it really is an amazing game or because it's the successor to starcraft 1?" because unless some major things change before release, I'm very afraid that the answer will be the latter. Starcraft 2 has the potential to be so great. It could be so much more than it is right now, and we need to continue to tell Blizzard what they need to change to make it reach its potential. | ||
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
The moving shot in SC:BW was a limitation by the game engine, it was a flaw that people could exploit to have an advantage over those who could not do it as well. SC2 is the revamp of that engine taking out that factor. Blizzard most likely did not like it in SC:BW but could not redo the engine nor waste the resources on that. SC2 was their answer to fixing the flaws in their old engine. Micro is still around, you can still stack mutas into a single ball the size of one Mutalisk and own a lot of stuff. Attack move players are my favourite to play against because I can out micro them by moving my ranged units around and melee units around. Phoenix vs Mutalisk is still a viable micro battle, they move faster than the mutalisk and have a very fast firing rate so you can move stop fire move really quickly. Believe it or not the Thor actually does have micro, if you use his cannons on the enemy's big units Collosus, other Thor's, and Ultralisks it really does screw the opponent up because that unit cannot do anything while the Thor uses his cannons. Thor drops are the new Reaver drop it doesnt do as much random damage but it does a ton of controlled damage at the same time. Blink micro is huge if you know what to do, PvP if they have void rays and you have stalkers you can blink a stalker that is getting focused back and cut the beam off so they have to recharge it. Force fields are also very micro intensive, you can spam them but if you spam them in the wrong location you can screw your army up more than the oppositions. I don't get why people think kiting with Marauders is skillless, it is the same concept as a vulture except where the vulture had no slow effect it had the extra speed to do the same thing. Blizzard is making their own unique game, if you don't play it they won't cry, they will sell this to a lot of people new to the RTS scene and the casuals. The singleplayer is what a lot of the % of the SC fans are all about and custom maps. Ladder will be there for the "hardcore" to grind out day to day and we have to wait and see where proleague is heading. | ||
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stinger_ro
90 Posts
I suggest ->>>>>> Talk to the guy from Shacknews who lurks around here and bring this to blizzs attention. | ||
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Drunken_Master
Bosnia-Herzegovina31 Posts
Ahahaha, bahahah, I never played BW really, but that's so fucking retarded, it makes absolutely no sense physically, Helion is such a big improvement over this crap. On the theme, it will take a lot of time to see any sort of good micro, because the skill demanded is a lot higher than in BW, because of the game speed and the big damage output from everything, just look at Nony's Phoenix play, 190 APM, and still NOWHERE near controling it good enough. I also remember watching DeMuslim shred a Zerg army in parts with like -30/40 food through micro, so I have absolutely no concerns about this, it will take a lot of time, but it will slowly come. Also, that video about Phoenix vs. Muta, it's actually possible to do, but noone comes close right now to have the skill to pull it off. So be patient, and instead of whining, go practice and make sexy micro happen.  | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
On the theme, it will take a lot of time to see any sort of good micro, because the skill demanded is a lot higher than in BW, because of the game speed and the big damage output from everything, This has to be a joke, right? Old Blizzard which made Broodwar possible is dead anyways. Nowadays Blizzard is not the same group of ppl at all... I don't have much hope in Sc2. Too mainstream for my taste. | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1982 Posts
Ahahaha, bahahah, I never played BW really, but that's so fucking retarded, it makes absolutely no sense physically, Helion is such a big improvement over this crap. On the theme, it will take a lot of time to see any sort of good micro, because the skill demanded is a lot higher than in BW, because of the game speed and the big damage output from everything, just look at Nony's Phoenix play, 190 APM, and still NOWHERE near controling it good enough. ... Ever actually PLAYED BW online? Edit: oops, didn't read his post. You SAID you hadn't played BW, yet you're commenting on a game which is FAR harder from a mechanics point of view (no MBS, infinite selection), alone, nevermind the micro tricks in SC1. | ||
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
Such a sweet micro, look at the costs of two vultures and what they destroyed ~~ You won't be able to do anything like this with a Starcraft 2 unit. Try to harass with two hellions? Lol, they get ripped apart by roach/stalker/marauder autoattack before they could do something useful, as long as your opponent has something to defend. (Surely you could say protoss failed but things like this never ever happen in SC2) | ||
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MaYuu
Sweden516 Posts
On April 28 2010 00:36 Drunken_Master wrote: Ahahaha, bahahah, I never played BW really, but that's so fucking retarded, it makes absolutely no sense physically, Helion is such a big improvement over this crap. On the theme, it will take a lot of time to see any sort of good micro, because the skill demanded is a lot higher than in BW, because of the game speed and the big damage output from everything, just look at Nony's Phoenix play, 190 APM, and still NOWHERE near controling it good enough. I also remember watching DeMuslim shred a Zerg army in parts with like -30/40 food through micro, so I have absolutely no concerns about this, it will take a lot of time, but it will slowly come. Also, that video about Phoenix vs. Muta, it's actually possible to do, but noone comes close right now to have the skill to pull it off. So be patient, and instead of whining, go practice and make sexy micro happen. So your argument is that the best of the best foreign players have to get better apm and practice more? Then the game will unfold and epicness will arrive. The flaws of this game is more fundamental then that. | ||
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UnderWorld_Dream
Canada219 Posts
good job altho I'm not ready to say micro is gone just yet. Give it a year or two. | ||
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ZaaaaaM
Netherlands1828 Posts
On April 28 2010 00:36 Drunken_Master wrote: Ahahaha, bahahah, I never played BW really, but that's so fucking retarded, it makes absolutely no sense physically, Helion is such a big improvement over this crap. On the theme, it will take a lot of time to see any sort of good micro, because the skill demanded is a lot higher than in BW, because of the game speed and the big damage output from everything, just look at Nony's Phoenix play, 190 APM, and still NOWHERE near controling it good enough. I also remember watching DeMuslim shred a Zerg army in parts with like -30/40 food through micro, so I have absolutely no concerns about this, it will take a lot of time, but it will slowly come. Also, that video about Phoenix vs. Muta, it's actually possible to do, but noone comes close right now to have the skill to pull it off. So be patient, and instead of whining, go practice and make sexy micro happen. U say u've never played BW, and ur post makes me think u've never played SC2 either. Sure phoenix micro will improve but because of the way units move/attack its impossible to do things like you could in BW. | ||
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Rokk
United States425 Posts
On April 28 2010 00:41 teekesselchen wrote: Just found this video as a related link, it shows so nicely what made Broodwar spectacular and what totally misses in SC2. Such a sweet micro, look at the costs of two vultures and what they destroyed ~~ You won't be able to do anything like this with a Starcraft 2 unit. Try to harass with two hellions? Lol, they get ripped apart by roach/stalker/marauder autoattack before they could do something useful, as long as your opponent has something to defend. (Surely you could say protoss failed but things like this never ever happen in SC2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tawxiuw1n0 Absolutely perfect example. Units just don't have that overpowered feeling where if you can catch your opponent offguard for just a second you can do ridiculous amounts of damage. With equal micro the goons could have fended that off and the game would have gone in a completely different direction. | ||
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joolz
United States67 Posts
On April 28 2010 00:36 Drunken_Master wrote: Ahahaha, bahahah, I never played BW really, but that's so fucking retarded, it makes absolutely no sense physically, Helion is such a big improvement over this crap. don't really think you're right about that. hellions are the ones that make no sense. hellions zip around the map at lightspeed but they instantly come to a stop when they have to shoot. then they have to re-accelerate just to move a little bit, then stop, and shoot again. this really makes the hellion movespeed pointless. vultures zip around the map at lightspeed and they shoot while they're moving, maintaining as close to max speed as possible. it's very strong but it requires high apm to execute properly. | ||
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MidKnight
Lithuania884 Posts
On April 28 2010 00:36 Drunken_Master wrote: Ahahaha, bahahah, I never played BW really, but that's so fucking retarded, it makes absolutely no sense physically, Helion is such a big improvement over this crap. On the theme, it will take a lot of time to see any sort of good micro, because the skill demanded is a lot higher than in BW, because of the game speed and the big damage output from everything, just look at Nony's Phoenix play, 190 APM, and still NOWHERE near controling it good enough. I also remember watching DeMuslim shred a Zerg army in parts with like -30/40 food through micro, so I have absolutely no concerns about this, it will take a lot of time, but it will slowly come. Also, that video about Phoenix vs. Muta, it's actually possible to do, but noone comes close right now to have the skill to pull it off. So be patient, and instead of whining, go practice and make sexy micro happen. The only "micro" hellion offers is the most basic kiting. This is what new players can't really get. Micro isn't only about kiting and dancing injured units back. Calling that sort of vulture micro retarded just shows how ignorant some people are about why SC:BW is the greatest RTS ever | ||
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ket-
97 Posts
On April 28 2010 00:36 Drunken_Master wrote: Ahahaha, bahahah, I never played BW really, but that's so fucking retarded, it makes absolutely no sense physically, Helion is such a big improvement over this crap. On the theme, it will take a lot of time to see any sort of good micro, because the skill demanded is a lot higher than in BW, because of the game speed and the big damage output from everything, just look at Nony's Phoenix play, 190 APM, and still NOWHERE near controling it good enough. I also remember watching DeMuslim shred a Zerg army in parts with like -30/40 food through micro, so I have absolutely no concerns about this, it will take a lot of time, but it will slowly come. Also, that video about Phoenix vs. Muta, it's actually possible to do, but noone comes close right now to have the skill to pull it off. So be patient, and instead of whining, go practice and make sexy micro happen. I actually giggled.  Since when does competitive gaming have anything to do with "making sense physically" ? And if you even REMOTELY think SC2 is harder than BW, dude, just try BW and see how in SC2 half of everything (at least the basic things) are done automatically for you - harvesting being the most obvious. Automatic surround for melee units. And so on and so forth. There's already TONS of details that make SC2 much, much more easy than BW - I suggest you try play BW a little, I give you about 2 games before you give up because just mastering the UI requires so much more micro than a 200 food fight in SC2 | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
On April 28 2010 00:36 Drunken_Master wrote: Ahahaha, bahahah, I never played BW really, but that's so fucking retarded, it makes absolutely no sense physically, Helion is such a big improvement over this crap. On the theme, it will take a lot of time to see any sort of good micro, because the skill demanded is a lot higher than in BW, because of the game speed and the big damage output from everything, just look at Nony's Phoenix play, 190 APM, and still NOWHERE near controling it good enough. I also remember watching DeMuslim shred a Zerg army in parts with like -30/40 food through micro, so I have absolutely no concerns about this, it will take a lot of time, but it will slowly come. Also, that video about Phoenix vs. Muta, it's actually possible to do, but noone comes close right now to have the skill to pull it off. So be patient, and instead of whining, go practice and make sexy micro happen. 190 apm is low in broodwar and a 300 apm player still can't control things perfectly in broodwar. | ||
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
After reading the OP, I think the problem is that majority of the units act like an SC1 Valkyrie. The valk had an insanely long animation to finish and refuses to move when told to attack. I don't think the game needs an engine rehaul to fix this. | ||
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
On April 28 2010 00:55 d(O.o)a wrote: 190 apm is low in broodwar and a 300 apm player still can't control things perfectly in broodwar. 190 APM in SC2 = about 247 apm in Brood war. | ||
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