So many zone and terrain considerations created by mines, cliffs, ramps, and each player's positioning. Such a prolonged engagement that could swing either way at any point based on control. So many strategic considerations that evolve during the battle based on progressing technologies, shifting battle lines, and changes in battle outcome possibilities. All this translates into one minute of pure action and excitement. Oh it has nothing to do with moving shot but still everything to do with crisp control and unit handling.
But yeah, despite how true LaLuSh's core argument was, Blizzard has not yet to date demonstrated that community suggestions regarding high-level engine or design changes will be acted upon. Even if the OP were worlds more diplomatic, it would not impact the game.
Ahahaha, bahahah, I never played BW really, but that's so fucking retarded, it makes absolutely no sense physically, Helion is such a big improvement over this crap.
On the theme, it will take a lot of time to see any sort of good micro, because the skill demanded is a lot higher than in BW, because of the game speed and the big damage output from everything, just look at Nony's Phoenix play, 190 APM, and still NOWHERE near controling it good enough.
I also remember watching DeMuslim shred a Zerg army in parts with like -30/40 food through micro, so I have absolutely no concerns about this, it will take a lot of time, but it will slowly come.
Also, that video about Phoenix vs. Muta, it's actually possible to do, but noone comes close right now to have the skill to pull it off.
So be patient, and instead of whining, go practice and make sexy micro happen.
The only "micro" hellion offers is the most basic kiting. This is what new players can't really get. Micro isn't only about kiting and dancing injured units back.
Calling that sort of vulture micro retarded just shows how ignorant some people are about why SC:BW is the greatest RTS ever
So the video comparison between hellion and vulture was seriously supposed to be an example of how sc1 took more skill and had more rewarding micro than sc2?^^; I still can't tell if that was a sarcastic post or not. The only difference between those two videos is that vultures have the same speed as zerglings but don't slow down while shooting, while hellions move faster than zealots but do slow down when they shoot. I've vulture microed in BW, I've hellion microed in SC2. There is literally no difference in skill between the two. If anything it's harder to not get your hellions injured. If you would observe the hellion video, the terran cleaned up the entire zealot force without losing a hellion thanks to micro. But if a vulture kills 8 zerglings that demonstrates how SC1 rewarded micro and was so much more than sc2 will ever be...
Wow, what a post. To be honest I've gotten used to seeing it written it as well as that but that's more unknown\good\important points than I usually see in 5 articles or so.
I'm not sure I agree on whether or not the moving shot is something that should return for the majority of units, but some units, like the hellion, it definitely should. The hellion is such a stupid unit that barely even counters the units it's supposed to counter (like zerglings w/ speed upgrade). Take out the bonus damage and igniter flames, give it a speed upgrade and the ability to shoot on the move, we might see some actual use out of the hellion.
A big problem I have noticed in this game is that harassment is pretty important, but only worker harassment. Actually harassing your opponents army is discouraged. Like.... note the banshees superior range over marines. Yet marines will almost always beat micro'd banshees eventually because banshees have to stop to shoot. Roaches have a range of 3, yet hardly anyone can exploit that lack of range because you have to stop to attack them, letting them get in range.
I'd like to see a game where army size and composition isn't always more important than micro. When you get to big ball vs big ball, there isn't much you can do to overwhelm your opponent micro wise.
One thing I do like about sc2 is that it emphasizes strategy more than click speed, which is a good thing for the game. But I think they may have overdid it a bit.
This is what happens when you take a Command an Conquer developer on our beloved game. Bullshit everywhere like achievements, stupid ball movement, fancy new graphics, stupid sounds that should make sense.. Just take the Colossus for example, stolen from some stupid CC game (dont know which it was)
This article pretty much confirms that any discourse, no matter how much logical fallacies and incorrect informations it contains, will be acclaimed by the crowd as long as it targets the scapegoats and the things people don't like.
You could have claimed that moving shot makes the game more spectacular and emphasize a certain kind of hardcore micro that you like, that's a totally legitimate opinion, and I guess a lot of BW players and spectators feel that way. But you didn't say that. You claimed such things as "you can't micro your units against a superior force", or "some air units have an abusive range" just before complaining about the fact that there's no way to fire with them without taking at least a volley worth of damage. You also didn't say "I believe this.. or that", you stated "Blizzard failed", "Blizzard need to do this, and that, and this units makes no sense...".
The reason why people didn't criticize your insane display of arrogance and the considerable amount of non-senses that you wrote is that you have a personal opinion that a lot of people here share, and that you have mascaraded as a deep and profound analysis of both SC:BW and SC2 skill-ceilings. You want Blizzard to bring back some elements of Brood War that you have already mastered and that makes it a really cool and fun game to watch for you, that's OK, but don't use pretext such as "there will be no micro in SC2 if the fire animation keeps being that long" because this is the kind of things people heard during the War3:BETA when some old SC PGMers claimed that there would be no micro-tricks considering how many HP the units have.
On April 28 2010 01:04 In1t4themoney wrote: This is what happens when you take a Command an Conquer developer on our beloved game. Bullshit everywhere like achievements, stupid ball movement, fancy new graphics, stupid sounds that should make sense.. Just take the Colossus for example, stolen from some stupid CC game (dont know which it was)
So true. There's really something wrong if a diehard Sc fan, like me, uninstalls Sc2 after only a few hours of playing it. Blizzard already died a long time ago for me. Don't even want to get into all the PvP mess in World of warcraft. Such a joke the WoW balance.
On April 28 2010 01:04 In1t4themoney wrote: This is what happens when you take a Command an Conquer developer on our beloved game. Bullshit everywhere like achievements, stupid ball movement, fancy new graphics, stupid sounds that should make sense.. Just take the Colossus for example, stolen from some stupid CC game (dont know which it was)
Achievements sound WoWish to me. And the Colossus was obviously ripped from War of the Worlds =P.
On April 28 2010 01:05 TeWy wrote: This article pretty much confirms that any discourse, no matter how much logical fallacies and incorrect informations it contains, will be acclaimed by the crowd as long as it targets the scapegoats and the things people don't like.
You could have claimed that moving shot makes the game more spectacular and emphasize a certain kind of hardcore micro that you like, that's a totally legitimate opinion, and I guess a lot of BW players and spectators feel that way. But you didn't say that. You claimed such things as "you can't micro your units against a superior force", or "some air units have an abusive range" just before complaining about the fact that there's no way to fire with them without taking at least a volley worth of damage. You also didn't say "I believe this.. or that", you stated "Blizzard failed", "Blizzard need to do this, and that, and this units makes no sense...".
The reason why people didn't criticize your insane display of arrogance and the considerable amount of non-senses that you wrote is that you have a personal opinion that a lot of people here share, and that you have mascaraded as a deep and profound analysis of both SC:BW and SC2 skill-ceilings. You want Blizzard to bring back some elements of Brood War that you have already mastered and that makes it a really cool and fun game to watch for you, that's OK, but don't use pretext such as "there will be no micro in SC2 if the fire animation keeps being that long" because this is the kind of things people heard during the War3:BETA when some old SC PGMers claimed that there would be no micro-tricks considering how many HP the units have.
This is an extremely smart person, and I salute you.
On April 28 2010 01:05 TeWy wrote: This article pretty much confirms that any discourse, no matter how much logical fallacies and incorrect informations it contains, will be acclaimed by the crowd as long as it targets the scapegoats and the things people don't like.
You could have claimed that moving shot makes the game more spectacular and emphasize a certain kind of hardcore micro that you like, that's a totally legitimate opinion, and I guess a lot of BW players and spectators feel that way. But you didn't say that. You claimed such things as "you can't micro your units against a superior force", or "some air units have an abusive range" just before complaining about the fact that there's no way to fire with them without taking at least a volley worth of damage. You also didn't say "I believe this.. or that", you stated "Blizzard failed", "Blizzard need to do this, and that, and this units makes no sense...".
The reason why people didn't criticize your insane display of arrogance and the considerable amount of non-senses that you wrote is that you have a personal opinion that a lot of people here share, and that you have mascaraded as a deep and profound analysis of both SC:BW and SC2 skill-ceilings. You want Blizzard to bring back some elements of Brood War that you have already mastered and that makes it a really cool and fun game to watch for you, that's OK, but don't use pretext such as "there will be no micro in SC2 if the fire animation keeps being that long" because this is the kind of things people heard during the War3:BETA when some old SC PGMers claimed that there would be no micro-tricks if the units had that many HP.
Sure, I bet there will be mirco. but I don't think it will compare to the SC:BW one. The moving shot gives the game more depth and to execute it you need to focus on the units very hard. I get the feeling that in sc2 I rather just macro up and just don't mirco as intense since the units won't allow me to execute anything that requires super intense micro. Thus more stuff > less stuff even if it's microd to it's limit.
On April 28 2010 01:05 TeWy wrote: This article pretty much confirms that any discourse, no matter how much logical fallacies and incorrect informations it contains, will be acclaimed by the crowd as long as it targets the scapegoats and the things people don't like.
You could have claimed that moving shot makes the game more spectacular and emphasize a certain kind of hardcore micro that you like, that's a totally legitimate opinion, and I guess a lot of BW players and spectators feel that way. But you didn't say that. You claimed such things as "you can't micro your units against a superior force", or "some air units have an abusive range" just before complaining about the fact that there's no way to fire with them without taking at least a volley worth of damage. You also didn't say "I believe this.. or that", you stated "Blizzard failed", "Blizzard need to do this, and that, and this units makes no sense...".
The reason why people didn't criticize your insane display of arrogance and the considerable amount of non-senses that you wrote is that you have a personal opinion that a lot of people here share, and that you have mascaraded as a deep and profound analysis of both SC:BW and SC2 skill-ceilings. You want Blizzard to bring back some elements of Brood War that you have already mastered and that makes it a really cool and fun game to watch for you, that's OK, but don't use pretext such as "there will be no micro in SC2 if the fire animation keeps being that long" because this is the kind of things people heard during the War3:BETA when some old SC PGMers claimed that there would be no micro-tricks considering how many HP the units have.
I was just about to give up on TL.net and then I read your post. Thank you.
On April 28 2010 01:05 TeWy wrote: This article pretty much confirms that any discourse, no matter how much logical fallacies and incorrect informations it contains, will be acclaimed by the crowd as long as it targets the scapegoats and the things people don't like.
You could have claimed that moving shot makes the game more spectacular and emphasize a certain kind of hardcore micro that you like, that's a totally legitimate opinion, and I guess a lot of BW players and spectators feel that way. But you didn't say that. You claimed such things as "you can't micro your units against a superior force", or "some air units have an abusive range" just before complaining about the fact that there's no way to fire with them without taking at least a volley worth of damage. You also didn't say "I believe this.. or that", you stated "Blizzard failed", "Blizzard need to do this, and that, and this units makes no sense...".
The reason why people didn't criticize your insane display of arrogance and the considerable amount of non-senses that you wrote is that you have a personal opinion that a lot of people here share, and that you have mascaraded as a deep and profound analysis of both SC:BW and SC2 skill-ceilings. You want Blizzard to bring back some elements of Brood War that you have already mastered and that makes it a really cool and fun game to watch for you, that's OK, but don't use pretext such as "there will be no micro in SC2 if the fire animation keeps being that long" because this is the kind of things people heard during the War3:BETA when some old SC PGMers claimed that there would be no micro-tricks considering how many HP the units have.
I think you show a great deal of ignorance yourself speaking as if OK if the micro doesn't include such things - it may have been good for warcraft 3, but this isn't wc4, its sc2, and we want an unlimited amount of APM to be able to be used and abused, instead of catering to the newbies. I guess you got distracted by the way he pointed that out and I while do agree that he could have been more diplomatic, that's still not the point he was trying to make, so don't act like it was.
On April 28 2010 01:05 TeWy wrote: This article pretty much confirms that any discourse, no matter how much logical fallacies and incorrect informations it contains, will be acclaimed by the crowd as long as it targets the scapegoats and the things people don't like.
You could have claimed that moving shot makes the game more spectacular and emphasize a certain kind of hardcore micro that you like, that's a totally legitimate opinion, and I guess a lot of BW players and spectators feel that way. But you didn't say that. You claimed such things as "you can't micro your units against a superior force", or "some air units have an abusive range" just before complaining about the fact that there's no way to fire with them without taking at least a volley worth of damage. You also didn't say "I believe this.. or that", you stated "Blizzard failed", "Blizzard need to do this, and that, and this units makes no sense...".
The reason why people didn't criticize your insane display of arrogance and the considerable amount of non-senses that you wrote is that you have a personal opinion that a lot of people here share, and that you have mascaraded as a deep and profound analysis of both SC:BW and SC2 skill-ceilings. You want Blizzard to bring back some elements of Brood War that you have already mastered and that makes it a really cool and fun game to watch for you, that's OK, but don't use pretext such as "there will be no micro in SC2 if the fire animation keeps being that long" because this is the kind of things people heard during the War3:BETA when some old SC PGMers claimed that there would be no micro-tricks considering how many HP the units have.
The WC3 micro tricks are simple standards (unit casting, loading units into transports and back out, moving hurt units back, etc); hardly the focus that BW micro required.
I guess we will have to wait for SC2 PROMOD if we want to play the game "as it was meant to be played". :-) Nice article tho, hope someone with the power to change things is reading this.
I havent played the game but from what ive seen so far im gonna stick with BW . I play BW because i enjoy it but i cant see myself playing SC2 for a long time. I wanna buy SC2 mostly because ive enjoyed BW for a very long time compared to other games. Gonna play SC2 for the single player and will try multiplayer but i cant see myself playing for 5+ years like BW.
SC2 will be just like any other game ive played so far and geting bored after a few months. SC2 just dont got that flare that BW has and i doubt it will ever get close to it that made me play for over 5 years and still cant get enough of it.
Now thats what you get from throwing communities together. i´ve read every single post to page 34... yes it was boring at work.... read the first 3 pages the rest is people saying the same shit over and over again. just add a motherf* poll to see what the community wants.
On April 27 2010 23:49 iG.ClouD wrote: In my opinion the real problem about Starcraft2 is the complete lack of knowledge of the game by the developers. Moving shot is an huge issue but is not the only one. For example, I could make a thread as big about how bad this retarded unit clumping affects the game, or how some of the units in the game belong to the wrong tier (sentries and banelings), or how poorly balanced the game is due to the only fact zerg queen has larva injection. They are just a bunch of very good but common devs who are making an amazing single player game without having given the slightiest research on how a good multi player rts game should be. That fits perfectly with what Dustin said. They cared about everything else other than the graphics and units coolness after they were done with it. It's a game designed completely around its graphics and units design, which is not the most important and fun thing in an RTS. A dish that has a nice look and a poor taste in comparison. And yet they took a countless amount of years to reach this.
Retarded unit clumping? How about you MICRO your units so they don't do it?
EPT
