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On April 27 2010 22:10 Esett wrote:
To the OP:
You my friend are a RETARD. You have no idea how hard it is to design a game, and truth be told from the post you made you don't have the brains to do it either. You pretty much made it clear how little you understand about Starcraft 2 and it's new mechanics.
You do however have way to much time to make long "documented" posts that make no sense.
Fact 1: Starcraft 2 IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE Starcraft 1. Just keep playing Broodwar if you don't like it.
Fact 2: Starcraft 2 is right now in a beta state way more complex and subtle than Starcraft 1 ever was after 10 years of being played by millions of people.
Fact 3: Everybody who agrees with this the OP is a RETARD.
Ofc the rest of us will have the last laugh when a year from launch nobody will be playing Starcraft 1 anymore because Jaedong found a new way to use banelings and Flash found a new way to use ghosts.
My strong opinion is that we should have an IQ test when we register to post here. Like that would ever happen...
The people running this site post the same "ohh how i want Starcraft 1 mechanic X back" shit.
Fucking retards!
You sir wouldn't ever pass that IQ test.... and yeah your first post here calling Lalush and many other people retards deserving immediate bannana. By the way this game will never be Starcraft 1 as you said, but it could be warcraft 4 if they keep making it in this way.
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On April 27 2010 22:44 Eggm wrote:
I just hope sc2 can eventually capture the same feeling of super tight ultra responsive controls that make me feel 100% totally in control of everything in the game. Sc2 feels a bit clunkier for me atm. In SC I felt like whether I wanted to focus on macro or Micro there was no skill ceiling and I could choose strategies that depended on one or the other and have tons of options. It made me feel like I could be as creative as I wanted with my strategies and play style. I got a betakey a few weeks ago but couldn't play more than like 10 games it was petty boring overall IMO. In SC every single thing I do in the game feels absoultley critical, in SC the only things that seem critical to me were not forgetting to chorno boost from all my nexus's as soon as I hit 25 energy and making sure i'm constantly making gateways and spending money (macro) so that when the other guys huge blob came mine would be as big. However I totally understand the game is in beta right now and will def try it in the future when the full game + expansions and tons of patches are released to check its progress. I don't understand how people think that sc2 has more strategy as of now tho. The infinite skill ceiling in both micro/macro creates so many different strategies that are viable because of it.
The thing is that while I did play broodwar I did not play it to the extent that others did, and when I make statements here about broodwar in relation to sc2 I am instantly bashed with the "you cannot possibly understand all the complexity that we do because you did not play it for 12 years" and there is some truth to that but they are obviously disregarding the fact that I have watched as a spectator for years. BUT I can't help but feel that perhaps the same argument goes both ways, you played a handful of sc2 games and you "feel" that too few things in the game is absolutely critical?
Imagine someone who sits down and plays 10 broodwar games for the first time, do you think that they will feel that everything is super critical? No. In fact, they are likely going to be completely ignorant of just how much everything affects the outcome of the game.
All I can say is that I've played hundreds of sc2 games so far and speaking for myself I definitely feel that every single thing I do is critical to the outcome of the game.
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well put. you have expressed my ideas in an epic, long TL post.
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On April 27 2010 22:58 Euphoric wrote:
Okay...
I know very little about the competitive starcraft one scene, so my thoughts are very... uneducated on the topic.
However I got one overwhelming vibe from your well written article, and that is that you expect this game to be identical to the original.
Look at the jump in style from warcraft one, to two, to three. They are completely different on a pro gaming level, and similar on a basic level.
I think the problem is your expectation of a prettier starcraft 1. The problem is not on Blizzard's end. When you make a sequel to a game over a decade later, it is going to be fundamentally different. What you are asking for is for blizzard to imitate the starcraft one playstyle that developed out of an outdated and abused engine because you don't want to play A NEW GAME. You are asking to play starcraft one.
Did you ever think it was their intention for you to not want to engage a larger air force when you have only a few units? This is not starcraft one with better graphics. This is starcraft two. It shares only the lore and the concepts. If you aren't prepared to see Starcraft become modern, then yes, this game will be a complete failure in your eyes.
WORD
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I don't think I can agree with the original wall of text. I'm not sure what the point of this is. The micro in SC2 isn't like Brood War, so the game isn't as good? Huh?
I don't understand the pic of the toss base. How is standard play in brood war significantly different than standard play in SC2? In a PvT in BW, I'd expect a protoss base to have a bunch of gateways pumping zealots and goons. I'd expect the terran base to have a bunch of factories pumping vultures and tanks. Both SC2 and Brood War are Macro games before they're Micro games - they involve masses of production facilities spamming units. How is this a flaw?
And again with the comparison of the phoenix to corsairs against mutalisks - the entire scenario seems contrived. Why would you be in that situation, trying to micro against a dozen mutalisks with a few phoenix? The phoenix is an entirely different unit and it doesn't function the same. The ZvP matchup has changed. Corsairs are a near hard counter to bunched mutas, phoenix are not. Why is there an expectation to use phoenix like corsairs?
And heck, in that BW example of the corsairs pwning mutas, why didn't the mutas spread out a little, fly in, and pick off the corsairs (or chase them off, kill the cannon, and roflpwn the probe line)? It just seemed too well orchestrated. The zerg player could have suicided his mutas into the probe line and, in turn, done a more effective job of "microing" them than what resulted from absent-minded shots at a stargate.
I think the poster made his prejudice pretty clear in the opening paragraphs:
This is a thread that I have been wanting to write ever since the beginning of the beta. It is about a feeling, or rather a hunch, I had early on regarding some of SC2’s inherent flaws, and the way in which they might negatively impact the game.
Emphasis added. It's one thing to formulate a hypothesis after a period of observation. It's another to base a conclusion on a hunch and then warp the data to meet the preconceived conclusion. He makes a value judgment on starcraft before any significant experience. He goes into the analysis with the perception that the game is inherently flawed. Even with the subsequent sentences claiming that the poster wanted to take time to analyze his perceptions before drawing a conclusion, I just don't buy it. He went in looking for something specific, and with a myopic perspective found exactly what he was looking for.
I'm not saying that Starcraft 2 is perfect as is. I'm not saying that we have enough unit control. I just don't trust the results of a biased study, and I don't think enough effort was made to look into what micro DOES exist in SC2. I think micro still exists, it's just changed. I'm still looking forward to seeing players split up their units into multiple control groups and have them operate in well-coordinated attacks - instead of relying on the ease of bunching them all onto one hotkey.
And personally, I find the lack of high-ground advantages in mid to late game, and the somewhat symmetrical play resulting from each race possessing a powerful, mobile, ranged unit (roach, marauder, stalker/immortal), more significant than the inability of a phoenix to perform a moving shot.
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I say that because I'm pretty sure Blizzard tried hard to put Muta stacking and control into SC2 because everyone begged for it. They didn't succeed as far as I can tell.
This is incorrect. I can't remember who, but a player at blizzcon said he was playing around with stacking max supply mutas so one shot buildings and such in that version. Unlimited unit control breaks muta stacking, ie makes it way too good, so it was made much, much more difficult to stack mutas.
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On April 27 2010 22:55 Shade692003 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 22:51 Tin_Foil wrote:
Huge discovery!!!!
Everyone please read!
I just was checking through the Galaxy Editor. I checked the phoenix's "Ion Cannon." About the 5th option is "MOVEMENT ALLOWED WHILE ATTACKING." The options are None, Slowing, and Moving. The Phoenix is listed as "Slowing." I just changed it, but don't have time to test if i can do corsair micro now.
I told you all it wasn't the engine, it was a choice blizz made to have the units Phoenixs not be able to move while attacking. To change this would take about 5 seconds it appears.
Now the argument should be, does SC2 need air units to have moving attacks, and if so how many of them.
Edited out the extra space. I can't check the Galaxy Editor right now, but can you tell us what setting is set for the mutalisk attack? Because they do start their attack when they deaccelerate, but obviously it's nothing compared to sc1.
The Muta attack is also listed as "Slowing"
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On April 27 2010 22:57 MindRush wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 22:50 Daemor wrote:
SC1 when it came out was a game about cool units and cool races , BW made it the competitive game that it is now adding lots of new unit mechanics... (lurker , medic, DT .... corsair and valkirie Air splash damage...) remember zerg unbalance , before BW the game wasnt like it is now.
in SC2 all units have never seen before mechanics , even the "super-sucker" phoenix has its "tank killing" graviton beam that IMO is claiming for someone good enough to come up with something with it , just like Orb's Force field + storm made.
the other thing is that in SC2 you dont have to make each worker go to the mineral field personally (and may other stupid things)... thats not playing a game , its annoying as hell.
Of course we could go back to the time in Warcraft:Orcs and Humans where you didnt even had control groups but thats not the way we wanna play...right?
well, don't stop here. Make the units not even auto-atack and enemy unit. Make workers not have an infinite loop when they mine, every time they return cargo they have to be sent back to work 2 times : once to mine, once to return cargo. this way higher apm players can really feel good about themselves please, blizzard, make a game where the no-lifers can play and OWN those NOOBZ just because they can click faster. Hey, i know : i will make a java application. Whoever makes the more clicks in one minute wins! I will call it clickcraft ! I promise it will be ballanced
Lol ... But seriously:
i love to micro in BW the only thing i hated was that i couldnt micro, because i had to spend all my APM for macro(and to control my stupid units who got stuck due to the bad pathfinding...)(thats why i loved micro centered UMS maps)(i have low APM i know ). And im pretty sure progamers wont mind if these two elements would be improved in SC:BW. I mean i dont think it would make the game too easy, ppl could just focus more on the good stuff Anyway, my point is: I want SC2 to be as fun to micro as SC:BW was, and as easy to macro as it is now
Also: what i find amusing in players like Flash, is not that he can click 400 times per minute, but that he can think of well lets say 100 things to do during that minute!
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On April 27 2010 22:51 Tin_Foil wrote:
Huge discovery!!!!
Everyone please read!
I just was checking through the Galaxy Editor. I checked the phoenix's "Ion Cannon." About the 5th option is "MOVEMENT ALLOWED WHILE ATTACKING." The options are None, Slowing, and Moving. The Phoenix is listed as "Slowing." I just changed it, but don't have time to test if i can do corsair micro now.
I told you all it wasn't the engine, it was a choice blizz made to have the units Phoenixs not be able to move while attacking. To change this would take about 5 seconds it appears.
Now the argument should be, does SC2 need air units to have moving attacks, and if so how many of them.
Edited out the extra space.
oh my god
can you use galaxy editor to recreate sc1 : bw
the units are there, make them act just like in sc1 : bw .... problem solved
maybe make corsairs look like phoenixes, goons like stalkers ....... every1 is happy
sc1 fanboys play that mod, people who want sc2 play the game
it's just a matter of taste
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When blizzard made BW they didnt intend on making it the way it is today. They just made a game that they thought was fun to play.
But StarCraft 2 is Intendedly done to be a competitive game, maybe thats what theyre doing wrong. Maybe they shouldnt aim for that. I hope this makes sense
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oh my god
can you use galaxy editor to recreate sc1 : bw
the units are there, make them act just like in sc1 : bw .... problem solved
maybe make corsairs look like phoenixes, goons like stalkers ....... every1 is happy
sc1 fanboys play that mod, people who want sc2 play the game
it's just a matter of taste
Haha, yes, from the looks I've had at the editor so far, you could recreate sc1. Maybe not some of the weird glitchy stuff, ei dragoon pathing, but, yah, almost exactly.
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On April 27 2010 23:04 Kuzmorgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 22:57 MindRush wrote:On April 27 2010 22:50 Daemor wrote:
SC1 when it came out was a game about cool units and cool races , BW made it the competitive game that it is now adding lots of new unit mechanics... (lurker , medic, DT .... corsair and valkirie Air splash damage...) remember zerg unbalance , before BW the game wasnt like it is now.
in SC2 all units have never seen before mechanics , even the "super-sucker" phoenix has its "tank killing" graviton beam that IMO is claiming for someone good enough to come up with something with it , just like Orb's Force field + storm made.
the other thing is that in SC2 you dont have to make each worker go to the mineral field personally (and may other stupid things)... thats not playing a game , its annoying as hell.
Of course we could go back to the time in Warcraft:Orcs and Humans where you didnt even had control groups but thats not the way we wanna play...right?
well, don't stop here. Make the units not even auto-atack and enemy unit. Make workers not have an infinite loop when they mine, every time they return cargo they have to be sent back to work 2 times : once to mine, once to return cargo. this way higher apm players can really feel good about themselves please, blizzard, make a game where the no-lifers can play and OWN those NOOBZ just because they can click faster. Hey, i know : i will make a java application. Whoever makes the more clicks in one minute wins! I will call it clickcraft ! I promise it will be ballanced Lol ... But seriously: i love to micro in BW the only thing i hated was that i couldnt micro, because i had to spend all my APM for macro(and to control my stupid units who got stuck due to the bad pathfinding...)(thats why i loved micro centered UMS maps)(i have low APM i know ). And im pretty sure progamers wont mind if these two elements would be improved in SC:BW. I mean i dont think it would make the game too easy, ppl could just focus more on the good stuff Anyway, my point is: I want SC2 to be as fun to micro as SC:BW was, and as easy to macro as it is now
i have a feeling that UMS maps will be better in sc2. i mean look at that mario kart minigame, but that is just an example. Karune and Dustin showed a FPS made with starcraft 2 engine.
This is the 1000th time I say this, but i will say this again :
SC2 doesn't, shouldn't, mustn't and will not look,feel and be like SC1
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On April 27 2010 23:07 Tin_Foil wrote:Show nested quote +
oh my god
can you use galaxy editor to recreate sc1 : bw
the units are there, make them act just like in sc1 : bw .... problem solved
maybe make corsairs look like phoenixes, goons like stalkers ....... every1 is happy
sc1 fanboys play that mod, people who want sc2 play the game
it's just a matter of taste
Haha, yes, from the looks I've had at the editor so far, you could recreate sc1. Maybe not some of the weird glitchy stuff, ei dragoon pathing, but, yah, almost exactly.
SC2ProMod!!! Way to go!!!
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On April 27 2010 23:10 MindRush wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 23:04 Kuzmorgo wrote:On April 27 2010 22:57 MindRush wrote:On April 27 2010 22:50 Daemor wrote:
SC1 when it came out was a game about cool units and cool races , BW made it the competitive game that it is now adding lots of new unit mechanics... (lurker , medic, DT .... corsair and valkirie Air splash damage...) remember zerg unbalance , before BW the game wasnt like it is now.
in SC2 all units have never seen before mechanics , even the "super-sucker" phoenix has its "tank killing" graviton beam that IMO is claiming for someone good enough to come up with something with it , just like Orb's Force field + storm made.
the other thing is that in SC2 you dont have to make each worker go to the mineral field personally (and may other stupid things)... thats not playing a game , its annoying as hell.
Of course we could go back to the time in Warcraft:Orcs and Humans where you didnt even had control groups but thats not the way we wanna play...right?
well, don't stop here. Make the units not even auto-atack and enemy unit. Make workers not have an infinite loop when they mine, every time they return cargo they have to be sent back to work 2 times : once to mine, once to return cargo. this way higher apm players can really feel good about themselves please, blizzard, make a game where the no-lifers can play and OWN those NOOBZ just because they can click faster. Hey, i know : i will make a java application. Whoever makes the more clicks in one minute wins! I will call it clickcraft ! I promise it will be ballanced Lol ... But seriously: i love to micro in BW the only thing i hated was that i couldnt micro, because i had to spend all my APM for macro(and to control my stupid units who got stuck due to the bad pathfinding...)(thats why i loved micro centered UMS maps)(i have low APM i know ). And im pretty sure progamers wont mind if these two elements would be improved in SC:BW. I mean i dont think it would make the game too easy, ppl could just focus more on the good stuff Anyway, my point is: I want SC2 to be as fun to micro as SC:BW was, and as easy to macro as it is now i have a feeling that UMS maps will be better in sc2. i mean look at that mario kart minigame, but that is just an example. Karune and Dustin showed a FPS made with starcraft 2 engine. This is the 1000th time I say this, but i will say this again : SC2 doesn't, shouldn't, mustn't and will not look,feel and be like SC1
Hell no!!!
I merely said to be as fun as BW was... Not the same by any means
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On April 27 2010 23:10 Kuzmorgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2010 23:07 Tin_Foil wrote:
oh my god
can you use galaxy editor to recreate sc1 : bw
the units are there, make them act just like in sc1 : bw .... problem solved
maybe make corsairs look like phoenixes, goons like stalkers ....... every1 is happy
sc1 fanboys play that mod, people who want sc2 play the game
it's just a matter of taste
Haha, yes, from the looks I've had at the editor so far, you could recreate sc1. Maybe not some of the weird glitchy stuff, ei dragoon pathing, but, yah, almost exactly. SC2ProMod!!! Way to go!!!
well, this is where glitches turn into features
the more retarded a unit is, the better the game
when the game crashed ....... WOW that was so epic
remember when Flash lost to a power failure ?
was that a JaeDong ability ?!? so fucking epic
he clicked so fast he made the computer's power short-circuit the entire buiding
what a great player !!!
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Oh please don't divide the community with a "pro mod"
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The damage system in SC was percentage based. I find that remarkable. And I find that to strengthen my point that moving shot helped balance Starcraft (and that it might also, if implemented, help balance SC2).
Does that make sense?
perfect, and you've got 1 vote from me : moving attacks diversifies the game (why would sc2 be less in that regard?)
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On April 27 2010 23:14 FortuneSyn wrote:
Oh please don't divide the community with a "pro mod"
if some players want to play sc1 remade, let them
they obviously don't want a new game, they want to play the same game they been playing for the last 12 years.
please, let them play a sc:bw clone.
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When I scan through this thread I get the feeling Blizzard has listened too much to the old starcraft community when creating starcraft 2. Much of what I see is criticism towards new ideas and units, and a lot of claims of the type "this is what made starcraft: brood a competitive game, this should be in SC2".
It feels like a lot of unnecessary restrictions binding them to concepts not ideal for a modern RTS in a 3d environment. I'd much rather they think of what new solutions their new engine can offer and what possibilities there are to implement them into a competitive game while just staying true to the basic characteristics of brood war. They have done too much fan service, which I believe to be a disservice in the end.
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Some of you guys really need to disable your fanboy mode...
The op does have a point but you're making yourself looking like a raging 12 year old with all the Dustin hate and it makes it hard to take your point seriously even if I know that you are a good player. I do love starcraft but all of you people constantly talking about how BW is the best game ever and that it's perfectly balanced needs to to get of your high horses and instead use your brains for a minute while posting, kthx?
A lot of people have said this already but this is beta, and your comparing it to the expansion of starcraft... seeing my point? You are free to say such things after heart of the swarm is released and patched but for now stop comparing the two games.
We have already seen quite a lot of development in beta and it's not like the top players are just gonna stop getting better and play exactly the same for the rest of this games' lifetime. It may be true that this game is easier than bw (not saying it is) but if that's so, why arnt we seeing random gold players getting to finals in tournaments?
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EPT
