EPTNow please let's make blizzard eat this game back down their throat and redo it !
Oh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 30
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Boonbag
France3318 Posts
Now please let's make blizzard eat this game back down their throat and redo it ! | ||
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Shade692003
Canada702 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:31 cgerrr wrote: 3. Uber hard counters which is plainly OP ‘in the vacuum’ (Marauders, Roaches, Immortals), the so called “terrible terrible damage syndrome”, which by only their presence in player’s arsenal deny many strats from the opponent – added to the game coz the engine doesn’t provide enough room for unit diversity, thus providing insufficient tension in army composition: in general, most ranged/melee unit feels and plays basically the same as any other ranged/melee unit, and only distinguished (gameplay-wise) in most cases by abilities they have. Thus there is artificially added tension at the expense of balance/balanceability. Sorry, but this must be the most retarded argument ever. How does an engine have anything to do with what type of units the game has? Have you seen the Galaxy Editor? They are not limited to roachs, marauders and immortal because of the engine. At all. I remember in Warcraft3 how everyone whined about how it was balanced as a soft counter game and starcraft was so much better because of the hard counter, rofl. People just love to whine. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:10 Esett wrote: To the OP: You my friend are a RETARD. You have no idea how hard it is to design a game, and truth be told from the post you made you don't have the brains to do it either. You pretty much made it clear how little you understand about Starcraft 2 and it's new mechanics. You do however have way to much time to make long "documented" posts that make no sense. Fact 1: Starcraft 2 IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE Starcraft 1. Just keep playing Broodwar if you don't like it. Fact 2: Starcraft 2 is right now in a beta state way more complex and subtle than Starcraft 1 ever was after 10 years of being played by millions of people. Fact 3: Everybody who agrees with this the OP is a RETARD. Ofc the rest of us will have the last laugh when a year from launch nobody will be playing Starcraft 1 anymore because Jaedong found a new way to use banelings and Flash found a new way to use ghosts. My strong opinion is that we should have an IQ test when we register to post here. Like that would ever happen... The people running this site post the same "ohh how i want Starcraft 1 mechanic X back" shit. Fucking retards! lol romania  | ||
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cgerrr
Ukraine47 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:36 Shade692003 wrote: Sorry, but this must be the most retarded argument ever. How does an engine have anything to do with what type of units the game has? Have you seen the Galaxy Editor? They are not limited to roachs, marauders and immortal because of the engine. At all. I remember in Warcraft3 how everyone whined about how it was balanced as a soft counter game and starcraft was so much better because of the hard counter, rofl. People just love to whine. Please read this argument in context with everything else I stated. Moreover, this argument, even when ripped out of context pretty much self-explanationary (please read it beyond firs 2 lines). | ||
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Shade692003
Canada702 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:40 cgerrr wrote: Please read this argument in context with everything else I stated. I did read your argument. I'm sorry but, added to the game coz the engine doesn’t provide enough room for unit diversity Is just plain retarded. | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1767 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:10 Esett wrote: Starcraft 2 IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE Starcraft 1. Just keep playing Broodwar if you don't like it. Thats exactly what I plan to do :-) | ||
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Eggm
United States152 Posts
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:40 cgerrr wrote: Please read this argument in context with everything else I stated. sorry, mate but Shade692003 is right, and your argument is based on a false statement. there are alot of units implemented in the game editor, such as lurkers which were in the alpha build, but they were taken out for the beta. also alot of units which appear in the single player only are supported by the engine : medics, goliaths, diamondbacks. They are out of the multiplayer for balancing purposes. | ||
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PokePill
United States1048 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:20 MindRush wrote: you base your statements and afirmations on a false presumption if you studied chess, you would know that chess is nowhere near being solved. there are a lot of viable openings, as are playstyles and viable counters. Another thing, chess is limited in time also. heard about 10 minute games, even 5 minute, even 3 ?!? Micro is not as easy as pushing a button you say ? look at http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft#p/u/0/1bHbx0qS0sU is Jinro a bad player ? no. did he get outmicroed by WhiteRa ? yes. P.S: sorry frozenarbiter, i really like you as a player, but i liked this particular game, as well as NonY's look at this: is Idra a bad player ? no, he is a dick but a great player nonetheless did he get outmicroed by DrunkBobby ? hell yeah! if micro is as easy as a click of a button, how can a good player get outmicroed like that ? if you want more examples, just let me know. This may come as a surprise to you but Idra was not "outmicrod." We are talking about a toss who did a 1 base all in vs Idra who droned just a tad too hard and didn't have the perfect unit composition. Stalker range is 6, Roach range is 3, that is EASY and simplistic micro that any and every 1 base all in player will be doing. You aren't seeing it more only because the better all in is Zealot Sentry. Idra microd almost perfectly, you cant even focus fire with your roaches because their range is so bad and its just as easy to blink away, and u will have wasted dps when they bunch up around each other. And we aren't saying the game is as easy as pushing a button, we are saying that is what people like you would ideally want. Idra will never lose to that again, and if he does, it's because he "guessed" what the opponent was going wrongly and didn't have enough units. The fact that you cite that game as evidence is silly. You don't seem to understand that ANYONE can do that with just as much effectiveness, while micro in BW and War3 is much more game deciding and has no skill ceiling. edit: tried to make my post nicer | ||
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cgerrr
Ukraine47 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:41 Shade692003 wrote: I did read your argument. I'm sorry but, Is just plain retarded. Please read this argument in context with everything else I stated. Moreover, this argument, even when ripped out of context pretty much self-explanationary (please read it beyond firs 2 lines). P.s. Would it be appropriate to call you “a retard” because you don’t read my argument beyond first 2 lines? I think not, so please refrain from using this word in reference to me or my statements. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:41 Shade692003 wrote: I did read your argument. I'm sorry but, Is just plain retarded. I'm not so sure it is. I think what he means is the physics engine side of things. I don't know how blizzard programs, but I would assume unit motion is governed by a physics engine. That's the reason why when an scv tries to go through an army it'll push the units aside. Blizzard obviously didn't program "if an scv tries to go here, you move right, you move left etc..", they simply incorporated a collision algorithm and gave the units a certain.. mass I suppose?. Sometimes you'll find that an SCV can't push units out of the way for example. Now apply that to the moving shot: the way units behave is governed by a set of formulas, if you want to do something outside of those formulas you'll have to specifically program something for that unit, falling outside of the physics engine's realm. I say that because I'm pretty sure Blizzard tried hard to put Muta stacking and control into SC2 because everyone begged for it. They didn't succeed as far as I can tell. | ||
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ymirheim
Sweden300 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:31 cgerrr wrote: 4. Macro mechanics – game engine doesn’t provide enough things to do for players in natural way, so again we have artificially added gameplay elements (APM sinks) to occupy players more. I'm sorry but this is just not a valid way of reasoning. Everything in a game is an APM sink by definition. Anything that requires you to control and take away attention from other things is an APM sink. You can't just assert that all the micro in broodwar is good and all the micro in sc2 is not "real" micro because its apm sinks. What is the fact that in broodwar you need to utilize a glitch in the firing mechanics and unit positioning to be able to use your mutalisks well? An APM sink perhaps? Isn't the lack of MBS a huge fucking APM sink? MULE/Scan/Supplydrop is just as valid a game mechanic and apm usage as anything else. | ||
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Daemor
Spain9 Posts
in SC2 all units have never seen before mechanics , even the "super-sucker" phoenix has its "tank killing" graviton beam that IMO is claiming for someone good enough to come up with something with it , just like Orb's Force field + storm made. the other thing is that in SC2 you dont have to make each worker go to the mineral field personally (and may other stupid things)... thats not playing a game , its annoying as hell. Of course we could go back to the time in Warcraft:Orcs and Humans where you didnt even had control groups but thats not the way we wanna play...right? | ||
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Tin_Foil
United States243 Posts
Everyone please read! I just was checking through the Galaxy Editor. I checked the phoenix's "Ion Cannon." About the 5th option is "MOVEMENT ALLOWED WHILE ATTACKING." The options are None, Slowing, and Moving. The Phoenix is listed as "Slowing." I just changed it, but don't have time to test if i can do corsair micro now. I told you all it wasn't the engine, it was a choice blizz made to have the units Phoenixs not be able to move while attacking. To change this would take about 5 seconds it appears. Now the argument should be, does SC2 need air units to have moving attacks, and if so how many of them. Edited out the extra space. | ||
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Shade692003
Canada702 Posts
Protip: You don't NEED move-shoot to make a good game with a good unit diversity. | ||
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heynes
Germany201 Posts
On April 27 2010 13:59 ploy wrote: Whats funny is that a lot of FPS`ers would say the same thing about pre-1.6 CS and 1.6 CS cs beta 5_2 was best version ever !!! | ||
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Shade692003
Canada702 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:51 Tin_Foil wrote: Huge discovery!!!! Everyone please read! I just was checking through the Galaxy Editor. I checked the phoenix's "Ion Cannon." About the 5th option is "MOVEMENT ALLOWED WHILE ATTACKING." The options are None, Slowing, and Moving. The Phoenix is listed as "Slowing." I just changed it, but don't have time to test if i can do corsair micro now. I told you all it wasn't the engine, it was a choice blizz made to have the units Phoenixs not be able to move while attacking. To change this would take about 5 seconds it appears. Now the argument should be, does SC2 need air units to have moving attacks, and if so how many of them. Edited out the extra space. I can't check the Galaxy Editor right now, but can you tell us what setting is set for the mutalisk attack? Because they do start their attack when they deaccelerate, but obviously it's nothing compared to sc1. | ||
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Kuzmorgo
Hungary1058 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:50 Daemor wrote: SC1 when it came out was a game about cool units and cool races , BW made it the competitive game that it is now adding lots of new unit mechanics... (lurker , medic, DT .... corsair and valkirie Air splash damage...) remember zerg unbalance , before BW the game wasnt like it is now. in SC2 all units have never seen before mechanics , even the "super-sucker" phoenix has its "tank killing" graviton beam that IMO is claiming for someone good enough to come up with something with it , just like Orb's Force field + storm made. the other thing is that in SC2 you dont have to make each worker go to the mineral field personally (and may other stupid things)... thats not playing a game , its annoying as hell. Of course we could go back to the time in Warcraft:Orcs and Humans where you didnt even had control groups but thats not the way we wanna play...right? AAAAH dont even mention Warcraft:Orcs and Humans..:S i still have nightmares about my peons not mining because they had unit collision during resource gathering  | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:50 Daemor wrote: SC1 when it came out was a game about cool units and cool races , BW made it the competitive game that it is now adding lots of new unit mechanics... (lurker , medic, DT .... corsair and valkirie Air splash damage...) remember zerg unbalance , before BW the game wasnt like it is now. in SC2 all units have never seen before mechanics , even the "super-sucker" phoenix has its "tank killing" graviton beam that IMO is claiming for someone good enough to come up with something with it , just like Orb's Force field + storm made. the other thing is that in SC2 you dont have to make each worker go to the mineral field personally (and may other stupid things)... thats not playing a game , its annoying as hell. Of course we could go back to the time in Warcraft:Orcs and Humans where you didnt even had control groups but thats not the way we wanna play...right? well, don't stop here. Make the units not even auto-atack and enemy unit. Make workers not have an infinite loop when they mine, every time they return cargo they have to be sent back to work 2 times : once to mine, once to return cargo. this way higher apm players can really feel good about themselves please, blizzard, make a game where the no-lifers can play and OWN those NOOBZ just because they can click faster. Hey, i know : i will make a java application. Whoever makes the more clicks in one minute wins! I will call it clickcraft ! I promise it will be ballanced | ||
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Euphoric
Canada49 Posts
I know very little about the competitive starcraft one scene, so my thoughts are very... uneducated on the topic. However I got one overwhelming vibe from your well written article, and that is that you expect this game to be identical to the original. Look at the jump in style from warcraft one, to two, to three. They are completely different on a pro gaming level, and similar on a basic level. I think the problem is your expectation of a prettier starcraft 1. The problem is not on Blizzard's end. When you make a sequel to a game over a decade later, it is going to be fundamentally different. What you are asking for is for blizzard to imitate the starcraft one playstyle that developed out of an outdated and abused engine because you don't want to play A NEW GAME. You are asking to play starcraft one. Did you ever think it was their intention for you to not want to engage a larger air force when you have only a few units? This is not starcraft one with better graphics. This is starcraft two. It shares only the lore and the concepts. If you aren't prepared to see Starcraft become modern, then yes, this game will be a complete failure in your eyes. | ||
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