EPTOh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 29
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marconi
Croatia220 Posts
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On April 27 2010 21:46 PokePill wrote: So ideally, you want a game where you don't control your units, don't need to manage your economy, and all you do is decide what to do strategically. Sounds like a lot of fun, I win because I countered your army 5% better or got lucky and attacked you 10 seconds earlier , and no other variables matter or influence the game. You just press 1 button on your keyboard and it sends your units to attack or take an expansion. Boy that sounds like a lot of fun. who says you don't control units ? who says you don't manage economy ? i want to ask you a question : how do you like the game now in the year2010 compared to when Boxer, Nal_Ra, Savior, Kingdom, Reach, Yellow, ILoveOov pretty much figured the game out ? Nowadays players sweep the floor with them for only 1 reason: They spam commands faster, they bash their keyboards faster, they react faster. Starcraft looks less like a strategy game, and more like a mechanics game Since the game is almost 100% figured out, there is no need for creativity and brains for that matter, just mechanics. Look at the game between Nony and MoonGlade. wasn't that strategy which resolved the game for the winner ? wasn't the game fun to watch? why are you sc1 fanboys so hung up on the starcraft : broodwar set of qualities required to be a good player? SC2 is the way it is right now and it's okay. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
On April 27 2010 21:53 Ricjames wrote: exactly my thoughts - top players in bw were there becuase of 2 things (good multitasking mind + a lot of pracitce) Sure they are on top of the ladders in SC2, beacuse they play much more than casual/good player and there are tournaments and $ they comepte for = motivation I think SC2 is another game and it should feel a little different than SC:BW, but the main point is to make it better or at least as good as SC:BW and Blizzard is failing at that right now. Many top/good players wouldn't even play it that much if they didn't know there is probably huge future in SC2 esports = $ again. I think Ghazwan's point was that if you see the same people in tournaments, and if you claim that that's because those people practice alot, then that's an indication that starcraft 2 requires alot of practice and thus skill to play well. I mean, I agree that currently the gap between the best of the best and the mediocre is much less than in broodwar, but if you're saying people are good because they practice more then, well... broodwar pro's have practiced for years to become so dominant. If you "feel" that even with years of practice the current top players won't get any better then alright, then SC2 has failed, but I'm not convinced. On the issue of fun to play I honestly like SC2 more, but that's almost certainly cause I no longer get constantly run over by smurfs at the D+ level =P | ||
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Esett
Romania1 Post
You my friend are a RETARD. You have no idea how hard it is to design a game, and truth be told from the post you made you don't have the brains to do it either. You pretty much made it clear how little you understand about Starcraft 2 and it's new mechanics. You do however have way to much time to make long "documented" posts that make no sense. Fact 1: Starcraft 2 IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE Starcraft 1. Just keep playing Broodwar if you don't like it. Fact 2: Starcraft 2 is right now in a beta state way more complex and subtle than Starcraft 1 ever was after 10 years of being played by millions of people. Fact 3: Everybody who agrees with this the OP is a RETARD. Ofc the rest of us will have the last laugh when a year from launch nobody will be playing Starcraft 1 anymore because Jaedong found a new way to use banelings and Flash found a new way to use ghosts. My strong opinion is that we should have an IQ test when we register to post here. Like that would ever happen... The people running this site post the same "ohh how i want Starcraft 1 mechanic X back" shit. Fucking retards! | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
Viking, Banshee, stalker, reaper can all perform moving shots. Vikings can do it endlessly to another viking across the entire map. Sure some have a slight delay in the action. So did tanks, dragoons, hydra, etc.. The reason your phoenixes lost there was because they are different units. Sairs have splash, phoenixes don't..., so 3 sairs is worth alot more. However, so far what I have failed to see in SC2 is a unit that can be microed so well to defend or kill something that seems unkillable. That will happen in time with some perfected thor dropship control, stuff like that. | ||
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agleed.agleed
Germany110 Posts
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LordWeird
United States3411 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:10 Esett wrote: To the OP: You my friend are a RETARD. You have no idea how hard it is to design a game, and truth be told from the post you made you don't have the brains to do it either. You pretty much made it clear how little you understand about Starcraft 2 and it's new mechanics. You do however have way to much time to make long "documented" posts that make no sense. Fact 1: Starcraft 2 IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE Starcraft 1. Just keep playing Broodwar if you don't like it. Fact 2: Starcraft 2 is right now in a beta state way more complex and subtle than Starcraft 1 ever was after 10 years of being played by millions of people. Fact 3: Everybody who agrees with this the OP is a RETARD. Ofc the rest of us will have the last laugh when a year from launch nobody will be playing Starcraft 1 anymore because Jaedong found a new way to use banelings and Flash found a new way to use ghosts. My strong opinion is that we should have an IQ test when we register to post here. Like that would ever happen... The people running this site post the same "ohh how i want Starcraft 1 mechanic X back" shit. Fucking retards! You're too angry. | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On April 27 2010 21:44 ketomai wrote: Strategy has a limit. Even chess, a game with much, much, much more strategical depth than starcraft, is approaching a point where it can be 'solved'. The point of an RTS is that it places a limit on time so that mechanics ARE important. What you describe as "keyboard bashing" and "mouse click spamming" are the raw mechanics that separate a theorycrafting D newbie and progamers. If you want strategy to be the main focus of starcraft and for macro, micro to be as easy as pushing a button, then sc2 will not last very long. you base your statements and afirmations on a false presumption if you studied chess, you would know that chess is nowhere near being solved. there are a lot of viable openings, as are playstyles and viable counters. Another thing, chess is limited in time also. heard about 10 minute games, even 5 minute, even 3 ?!? Micro is not as easy as pushing a button you say ? look at http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft#p/u/0/1bHbx0qS0sU is Jinro a bad player ? no. did he get outmicroed by WhiteRa ? yes. P.S: sorry frozenarbiter, i really like you as a player, but i liked this particular game, as well as NonY's look at this: is Idra a bad player ? no, he is a dick but a great player nonetheless did he get outmicroed by DrunkBobby ? hell yeah! if micro is as easy as a click of a button, how can a good player get outmicroed like that ? if you want more examples, just let me know. | ||
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comhero
United States12 Posts
You're just a pawn who saw a flashy looking op with pretty pictures and terribly written content with pop culture references and take everything the OP said as complete truth. In reality he's arguing how one small thing from brood war ruins the entire SC2 game as an esport which is the dumbest argument possible. If we could go back to when BW was still in beta, it was the most buggy unbalanced piece of shit and competitive gaming wasn't even a thought in anyones mind. Get a grip on yourselves, quit taking extreme sides from extremist opinion and just play SC2. | ||
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Kuzmorgo
Hungary1058 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:10 Esett wrote: To the OP: You my friend are a RETARD. You have no idea how hard it is to design a game, and truth be told from the post you made you don't have the brains to do it either. You pretty much made it clear how little you understand about Starcraft 2 and it's new mechanics. You do however have way to much time to make long "documented" posts that make no sense. Fact 1: Starcraft 2 IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE Starcraft 1. Just keep playing Broodwar if you don't like it. Fact 2: Starcraft 2 is right now in a beta state way more complex and subtle than Starcraft 1 ever was after 10 years of being played by millions of people. Fact 3: Everybody who agrees with this the OP is a RETARD. Ofc the rest of us will have the last laugh when a year from launch nobody will be playing Starcraft 1 anymore because Jaedong found a new way to use banelings and Flash found a new way to use ghosts. My strong opinion is that we should have an IQ test when we register to post here. Like that would ever happen... The people running this site post the same "ohh how i want Starcraft 1 mechanic X back" shit. Fucking retards! For all the "if u dont like it make a better game" arguments: NO I WONT!!! Because im not payed for making video games. I am the consumer, and i want the best product possible... Just wanted to say this, cause these kind of arguments got really boring... Oh and wheres a mod to warn this guy for the post?? Although im pretty sure he just made a new account for this 1 post  | ||
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Whiplash
United States2929 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:10 Esett wrote: To the OP: You my friend are a RETARD. You have no idea how hard it is to design a game, and truth be told from the post you made you don't have the brains to do it either. You pretty much made it clear how little you understand about Starcraft 2 and it's new mechanics. You do however have way to much time to make long "documented" posts that make no sense. Fact 1: Starcraft 2 IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE Starcraft 1. Just keep playing Broodwar if you don't like it. Fact 2: Starcraft 2 is right now in a beta state way more complex and subtle than Starcraft 1 ever was after 10 years of being played by millions of people. Fact 3: Everybody who agrees with this the OP is a RETARD. Ofc the rest of us will have the last laugh when a year from launch nobody will be playing Starcraft 1 anymore because Jaedong found a new way to use banelings and Flash found a new way to use ghosts. My strong opinion is that we should have an IQ test when we register to post here. Like that would ever happen... The people running this site post the same "ohh how i want Starcraft 1 mechanic X back" shit. Fucking retards! terrible first post. Show some respect or don't post here. Even your signature gives away your bad personality. | ||
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MagisterMan
Sweden525 Posts
On April 27 2010 21:59 marconi wrote: well after playing the beta for a month or two, i can say that i really enjoy the game. however, in my opinion, this game will never be as good as sc1. and that's a fact. blizzard did a really good job with the game, but in the end, they failed to make a better sequel. this thread only confirms that. How the hell can you say that? It's still beta! Start comparing when the game actually comes out. | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:10 Esett wrote: To the OP: You my friend are a RETARD. You have no idea how hard it is to design a game, and truth be told from the post you made you don't have the brains to do it either. You pretty much made it clear how little you understand about Starcraft 2 and it's new mechanics. You do however have way to much time to make long "documented" posts that make no sense. Fact 1: Starcraft 2 IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE Starcraft 1. Just keep playing Broodwar if you don't like it. Fact 2: Starcraft 2 is right now in a beta state way more complex and subtle than Starcraft 1 ever was after 10 years of being played by millions of people. Fact 3: Everybody who agrees with this the OP is a RETARD. Ofc the rest of us will have the last laugh when a year from launch nobody will be playing Starcraft 1 anymore because Jaedong found a new way to use banelings and Flash found a new way to use ghosts. My strong opinion is that we should have an IQ test when we register to post here. Like that would ever happen... The people running this site post the same "ohh how i want Starcraft 1 mechanic X back" shit. Fucking retards! people are entitled to their own opinions please don't trash talk if you feel otherwise, insulting makes you sound like a dick and everything you said and it's true goes down the drain as soon as sc2 comes out we will make a ROMANIA team and we play like hell out of this game | ||
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Shade692003
Canada702 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:10 Esett wrote: To the OP: You my friend are a RETARD. You have no idea how hard it is to design a game, and truth be told from the post you made you don't have the brains to do it either. You pretty much made it clear how little you understand about Starcraft 2 and it's new mechanics. You do however have way to much time to make long "documented" posts that make no sense. Fact 1: Starcraft 2 IS NOT and WILL NEVER BE Starcraft 1. Just keep playing Broodwar if you don't like it. Fact 2: Starcraft 2 is right now in a beta state way more complex and subtle than Starcraft 1 ever was after 10 years of being played by millions of people. Fact 3: Everybody who agrees with this the OP is a RETARD. Ofc the rest of us will have the last laugh when a year from launch nobody will be playing Starcraft 1 anymore because Jaedong found a new way to use banelings and Flash found a new way to use ghosts. My strong opinion is that we should have an IQ test when we register to post here. Like that would ever happen... The people running this site post the same "ohh how i want Starcraft 1 mechanic X back" shit. Fucking retards! While I kinda agree with you in the sense that ex-starcraft 1 players shouldn't expect starcraft 1 mechanics in a new game, you still need to show respect. To the OP, I find your post very well written, but I just don't think you get it that starcraft 2 don't absolutely need every single mechanic skill from starcraft 1 to be a good game. That "lost" micro will simply be translated elsewhere. Edit: Oh and I so agree with this, 100% + Show Spoiler + He's pretty much right though. Starcraft 2 is an excellent game and is already heavily competitive. It's not dumbed down. You're just a pawn who saw a flashy looking op with pretty pictures and terribly written content with pop culture references and take everything the OP said as complete truth. In reality he's arguing how one small thing from brood war ruins the entire SC2 game as an esport which is the dumbest argument possible. If we could go back to when BW was still in beta, it was the most buggy unbalanced piece of shit and competitive gaming wasn't even a thought in anyones mind. Get a grip on yourselves, quit taking extreme sides from extremist opinion and just play SC2. | ||
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FishNChips
United Kingdom107 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:13 FortuneSyn wrote: OK I seriously don't get this article. Viking, Banshee, stalker, reaper can all perform moving shots. Vikings can do it endlessly to another viking across the entire map. Sure some have a slight delay in the action. So did tanks, dragoons, hydra, etc.. The reason your phoenixes lost there was because they are different units. Sairs have splash, phoenixes don't..., so 3 sairs is worth alot more. However, so far what I have failed to see in SC2 is a unit that can be microed so well to defend or kill something that seems unkillable. That will happen in time with some perfected thor dropship control, stuff like that. Tanks, dragoons, hydras never did moving shots. Only units that "hovered" could do moving shots. You're talking about "dancing". A moving shot is example is right clicking with a vulture, probe, drone, archon, or any air unit where they'll keep moving in the same direction if you attack move, then right click in the same direction. Wtih dragoons, tanks, and hydras, you have to stop to shoot, that's a different mechanic than the moving shot. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:27 FishNChips wrote: Tanks, dragoons, hydras never did moving shots. Only units that "hovered" could do moving shots. You're talking about "dancing". A moving shot is example is right clicking with a vulture, probe, drone, archon, or any air unit where they'll keep moving in the same direction if you attack move, then right click in the same direction. Wtih dragoons, tanks, and hydras, you have to stop to shoot, that's a different mechanic than the moving shot. Sure some have a slight delay in the action. So did tanks, dragoons, hydra, etc.. Please read before you post. | ||
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cgerrr
Ukraine47 Posts
Actually awhile ago (at sclegacy) I’ve provided some thoughts considering the source of the disputed issue: The game has one incorrigible flaw, which singlehandedly leads to almost all issues SC2 has now: it’s the game’s engine. Arguments: 1. Not enough of quality micro, thus heavily macro oriented meta, thus practically complete absence of ‘awe-factor’ – all due game engine, which allows just minimal amount of micro to be performed via basic commands (like ‘move’ and ‘attack’, i.e. ‘natural’ micro) compared to Brood War, which leads to forced and artificially created ability-heavy micro. If you add unlimited unit selection, MBS, auto-mining and most of all – smart-casting, augmented by the fact that the only one race having reasonably good and complete set of units with micro abilities (Protoss), you’ll have what we have now – in 2/3 of the matchups we have macro-ing/massing + a-moving through the whole early, mid/mid-late game, with rare casters’ occurrences in the late game, which is by itself very rare (and even in Protoss match-ups all we see is Force field micro and rare Storms – which is getting old fast). 2. Lack of synergy between units, i.e. specific game design centered on individual units with micro abilities – the reason is the same as above: game engine doesn’t allow enough ‘basic’ ‘natural’ micro, so there is a replacement – artificially created micro, based solely on the abilities/spells usage. 3. Uber hard counters which is plainly OP ‘in the vacuum’ (Marauders, Roaches, Immortals), the so called “terrible terrible damage syndrome”, which by only their presence in player’s arsenal deny many strats from the opponent – added to the game coz the engine doesn’t provide enough room for unit diversity, thus providing insufficient tension in army composition: in general, most ranged/melee unit feels and plays basically the same as any other ranged/melee unit, and only distinguished (gameplay-wise) in most cases by abilities they have. Thus there is artificially added tension at the expense of balance/balanceability. 4. Macro mechanics – game engine doesn’t provide enough things to do for players in natural way, so again we have artificially added gameplay elements (APM sinks) to occupy players more. To sum it up: SC2 has the enormous flaw which won’t be fixed coz it’s too fundamental to do so at this stage of development. Sadly. | ||
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Shade692003
Canada702 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:27 FishNChips wrote: Tanks, dragoons, hydras never did moving shots. Only units that "hovered" could do moving shots. You're talking about "dancing". A moving shot is example is right clicking with a vulture, probe, drone, archon, or any air unit where they'll keep moving in the same direction if you attack move, then right click in the same direction. Wtih dragoons, tanks, and hydras, you have to stop to shoot, that's a different mechanic than the moving shot. It's not because of hovering that some units can move and shoot... it's bug related to the fact that some units don't have any frames of animation to start their firing sequence. | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:24 MagisterMan wrote: How the hell can you say that? It's still beta! Start comparing when the game actually comes out. well, wait until the game comes out, and compare to how sc1 was when if FIRST came out. no expansion, no medic/lurker/dt/darkarchon/valkerie/corsair/devourer this is a fair comparison, not compare to a game that had 12 years of balancing after broodwar came out | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
On April 27 2010 22:13 FortuneSyn wrote: OK I seriously don't get this article. Viking, Banshee, stalker, reaper can all perform moving shots. Vikings can do it endlessly to another viking across the entire map. Sure some have a slight delay in the action. So did tanks, dragoons, hydra, etc.. The reason your phoenixes lost there was because they are different units. Sairs have splash, phoenixes don't..., so 3 sairs is worth alot more. However, so far what I have failed to see in SC2 is a unit that can be microed so well to defend or kill something that seems unkillable. That will happen in time with some perfected thor dropship control, stuff like that. Yeah, immortal drops are already becoming annoying. And it's awesome seeing banshees turn around to shoot a marine while still strafing backwards^^. It may not be a true moving shot, but it sure as hell enables you to kill alot more marines than you could if you just hovered there like a dumbass. | ||
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