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Oh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Prev 1 2 3 4 5 77 78 79 Next
Icx
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Belgium853 Posts
April 26 2010 23:54 GMT
#21
altough I am not gonna formulate an opinion on this immediatly, I still wanted to make a post for this:

Very good article, it was well worth the read, interesting, and I'm really looking forward to any future articles.
so, thanks for doing it
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 23:57:15
April 26 2010 23:54 GMT
#22
I actually agree with most of this. The process of taking shots actually prevents micro. I wish Blizzard would try to fix it, but I highly doubt they will considering it would be a major balance change to basically the whole game. There is still the possibility Blizzard put the shot times in the game precisely and intentionally to balance the units, though. In that case .. Well, I'm not sure what to think about that.
In the end the game is less ... skill oriented, like playing a guitar is a skill for example; and more strategy oriented.
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
Kralic
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada2628 Posts
April 26 2010 23:55 GMT
#23
Long article decent read, I think the banshee has a lot of micro in it even with its longer range. The 3d engine and aoe damaged air attacks did not work out that is why Blizzard took them out of the game. The archon does suck a lot, but it was always meant as a last ditch effort to get a unit into the field.
Brood War forever!
Trap
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States395 Posts
April 26 2010 23:56 GMT
#24
The inability to use proper shoot and move to delay, defend, or harass a player with superior forces is far more troubling than any complaints about high ground advantage. I completely agree with the article.
coffeetoss | "Team Liquid Fantasy Proleague: Tales of Miserable Failure and Deep Regret" -Kanil
ComradeDover
Profile Joined November 2009
Bulgaria758 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-26 23:58:19
April 26 2010 23:57 GMT
#25
I liked this article better the first twenty times it was posted.

In a slightly related note, I'm becoming increasingly disappointed with the StarCraft 2 forum here on TL.net. Anybody can write anything negative about StarCraft 2 or Dustin Bowder or Blizzard or any related topic and it'll attract several dozen "ya i agree lol"s. You can supposedly attract more bees with honey than with vinegar, but these past few months have shown that quite the opposite is true.
Bring back 2v2s!
iNcontroL *
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
USA29055 Posts
April 26 2010 23:57 GMT
#26
one of the better articles I've read on SC2 thus far.

Nice work dude.
KonekoTyriin
Profile Joined March 2008
United States60 Posts
April 26 2010 23:58 GMT
#27
You make a good point about moving shot vs gliding shot, but you're souring your presentation with unnecessary levels of rudeness towards the sc2 development team.

If you're going to ask for moving shot on the grounds that it will make the game better, listing nearly every other change made to the game as wrong and stupid is unlikely to help your cause.

I'd like to be able to micro too but you got kind of carried away here.
THIS COURAGE OF MINE BURNS WITH AN AWESOME COURAGE
cartoon]x
Profile Joined March 2010
United States606 Posts
April 26 2010 23:58 GMT
#28
You might consider a different kind of micro is needed for units like the viking and the banshee - long range units. Maybe your real complaint is that your skills are not as useful as you hope they'd be?
It is not enough to conquer; one must learn to seduce.
zomgzergrush
Profile Joined August 2008
United States923 Posts
April 26 2010 23:59 GMT
#29
Really nice writeup. I have only one gripe, though.

However, in terms of movement, most people are looking at it at too high of a level (in developer terms, not skill terms); i.e. hold position gives a moving shot while attack move requires deacceleration. You all need to understand what's happening at a lower level(in developer terms, as in, closer to the code) and that this was not intended behavior, but simply a result of some of the flaws in the engine that were overlooked by most but only really discovered by the real competitive gamers. If you were to ask someone who has never laid eyes on starcraft before to judge ONLY movement between SC1 and SC2, he will without a doubt say that SC2 movement looks more "real" and "right." As bad as it is for competitive gaming, as a finished game in modern game industry, such details are a necessity and outweigh the need for competition.

In the end, this is all about sales. They can say whatever they want about esports and whatnot, but make no mistake, Blizzard is no different from any other game company. Whether it's a newbie buying the game and playing it for a month vs a seasoned veteran who buys it and plays it for years to come, a sale is a sale, and each of those cases count as one.
Bronze skipping straight to Diamond in 40 games retail release. Bnet 2.0 ladder really takes it's sweet time to think about that league placement.
Cyrox
Profile Joined October 2007
Sweden147 Posts
April 27 2010 00:00 GMT
#30
Yep yep.

Some things are missing from SC2 and it just does not feel as fun as BW does.
I can't see myself playing it since I've got other good games to play.

That implying that SC2 is good, but still a long shot away from BW.
TieN.nS)
Profile Joined August 2003
United States2131 Posts
April 27 2010 00:00 GMT
#31
Great post, I look forward to reading your future write-ups.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15665 Posts
April 27 2010 00:01 GMT
#32
I am usually among the first to say "not everything in sc2 should be sc1", but I have to agree with you regarding air units. These are all very solid changes that I would love to see implemented. Although I'd rather see the Phoenix just go the fuck away and them give me my corsair back.
Weasel-
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada1556 Posts
April 27 2010 00:02 GMT
#33
Holy crap that was good, and very convincing too. When you mentioned the moving shot stuff it completely clicked in my brain what you mean, just picturing myself (or anyone) doing some muta micro and having them respond to exactly what you want them to do, flying in here, shooting, then flying off.
rickxross
Profile Joined February 2010
United States33 Posts
April 27 2010 00:02 GMT
#34
Article is very awesome, but could use a hint of less Dustin Browder bashing. It gets tiring reading that again and again.
boss
HoroBoro
Profile Joined April 2010
United States91 Posts
April 27 2010 00:03 GMT
#35
That phoenix vs muta video really hammered the point home.
They want to move and shoot - they need to move and shoot to survive.

But they can't...they just can't.

zomgzergrush
Profile Joined August 2008
United States923 Posts
April 27 2010 00:03 GMT
#36
On April 27 2010 09:02 rickxross wrote:
Article is very awesome, but could use a hint of less Dustin Browder bashing. It gets tiring reading that again and again.

Well no need to refrain from any statements if they're true...
Bronze skipping straight to Diamond in 40 games retail release. Bnet 2.0 ladder really takes it's sweet time to think about that league placement.
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
April 27 2010 00:03 GMT
#37
Suddenly I don't care about StarCraft2 anymore.
Unless changes to micro are made the skill cap won't be nearly as high as BW's, and it won't be nearly as fun to watch. Well, the latter is already true imo.
KTY
zazen
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Brazil695 Posts
April 27 2010 00:04 GMT
#38
SC2 takes pretty much no skill. It doesn't mean that SC2 sucks. It's fun as hell, but just insanely easy to play when compared to BW. I mean, my D- friend beat Nony in SC2...

Blizzard believes that making the game much easier to play will make it more popular, and they are probably right...

BW is gone, and no game will ever be as hard to play as BW was because it's not something marketable anymore.




"The quest for nexus has brought many men of genius to insanity... HUEHUEHUE!"
Excalibur_Z
Profile Joined October 2002
United States12235 Posts
April 27 2010 00:05 GMT
#39
This post is just too long to respond to in full. It's also completely off-base.

You make the false assumption that bugs from BW such as true moving shots were intended. It's arguable whether that should be added back in because it does widen the skill gap which is always good. Mutas are already excellent indirect containment and harassment units, they would be even more powerful if their BW incarnations carried over. For all you know, this was a conscious decision by Blizzard.

You make the false assumption that the Blizzard design philosophy has changed pre-SC versus SC2 with no supporting evidence. Rob Pardo, the VP of game design and key figure in the development of BW, has always been consistent in his design approach. Succinctly, it's "make everything overpowered" along with "purity of purpose" and it's short and simple.

You make the false assumption that the SC engine was "great" (with regard to design intent versus SC2) when in fact it has ludicrous amounts of bugs. Ask anyone on this website and they'll agree, a large part of the appeal of BW was the exploitation of bugs in the engine. Mineral-click, dropship dodging, moving shots, mineral-hopping, the list goes on and on. Some of these were carried over to SC2 because they are intended to be used in SC2, and some were removed. We don't know whether that was intended.

I'll respond to the rest of the post with generalities that still apply: So much of your post is hating SC2 because it's not SC, and that mentality just has to disappear. I think you're giving Browder too much heat as well, it's pretty clear he's got the correct intentions and he's not doing the balancing alone. Lastly, this is a beta and we can expect some pretty drastic changes as we progress.
Moderator
lu_cid
Profile Joined April 2008
United States428 Posts
April 27 2010 00:05 GMT
#40
I agree. From the first time I played the game it was pretty obvious that units didn't feel right at all. It's like going from driving a 6-speed sports car to a minivan. From shaving with a perfectly honed straight razor to a dull disposable razor. I confess to being one of the people who said "micro is dead" when the beta was released, which was of course met with criticism every time people found a situation where units need to be "controlled".

This is the micro what I was referring to. It was an integral part of sc:bw; in fact I may even say the best part. It separated good players from great players. Yes, there is micro in SC2, but it's not the right kind. Mind you, I have been playing, and will continue to play SC2. It is quite fun for a video game. However, the game has taken a step in the wrong direction. Makes me so sad

Thanks for the article, you articulated my thoughts quite well.
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