• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:19
CEST 12:19
KST 19:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task8[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak14DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview19herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025)17Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, GuMiho, Classic, Cure6
Community News
[BSL20] RO20 Group Stage0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)8Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May3Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results212025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers)14
StarCraft 2
General
Interview with oPZesty on Cheeseadelphia/Coaching herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025) DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview Power Rank: October 2018 Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results
Tourneys
Pubg mobile DreamHack Dallas 2025 EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1) Last Chance Qualifiers for OlimoLeague 2024 Winter $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed
Brood War
General
[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task [ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak ASL 19 Tickets for foreigners BW General Discussion Cwal.gg not working
Tourneys
[ASL19] Semifinal B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] RO20 Group C - Saturday 20:00 CET [BSL20] RO20 Group Stage
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Yes Sir! How Commanding Impr…
TrAiDoS
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11727 users

Oh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 78

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 76 77 78 79 Next
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
April 20 2011 16:14 GMT
#1541
Whats up with all the necromancy in this thread?
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
TheWarbler
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1659 Posts
April 20 2011 16:22 GMT
#1542
Really nice read glad somone decided to revive it.
if you can believe you can concieve
L3g3nd_
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand10461 Posts
April 20 2011 16:33 GMT
#1543
Never knew this thread existed, thanks for necromancy ^^

Now that i think about it, i 100% agree with what youre saying. i always felt something was missing, and imo this is what it is. hope something is done about it, would need to be in an expansion though. too big for a patch
https://twitter.com/#!/IrisAnother
archonOOid
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1983 Posts
April 20 2011 16:40 GMT
#1544
I agree with lalush. In a micro situation 1v1 (drone vs probe) you should be able to control your unit fully through high apm, patrol and hold position tricks.
I'm Quotable (IQ)
HaXXspetten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Sweden15718 Posts
April 20 2011 16:47 GMT
#1545
Awesome one Lalush, you're really good at argumenting.
I hope Blizzard are reasonably aware of some of TL's posts of these kind of topics. This could surely make them scratch their heads and rethink.
The sheer magnitude of agreement I have with what your saying, I can only hope it will bring some meaning to the world of StarCraft.
Fyrewolf
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1533 Posts
April 20 2011 16:51 GMT
#1546
On April 27 2010 08:32 LaLuSh wrote:
The problem that arises is: you can never engage with an inferior force against a superior one.


What the hell kind of logic is this? You can't engage a superior force because it is SUPERIOR, not because you can't outmicro a superior force. The enemy can micro too. Micro shouldn't magically make you beat your opponent, it just lets you get more use out of your units, which doesn't mean you get enough use out of them to crush the opponent no matter what. The opponent can do micro to increase his units strength too. The SUPERIOR force should win.

On April 27 2010 08:32 LaLuSh wrote:
Starcraft had a one size fits all damage system. Now how the hell did Blizzard balance it despite not being able to give units arbitrary bonus damage values towards specific armor types?.


Starcraft 1 did NOT have a "one-size fits all" damage system. There was Explosive, Normal, and Concussive damage that dealt different amounts to different units. In fact, it's exactly the same as SC2's damage system except in terminology and showing the lowest possible damage as base with bonus in SC2 and the highest possible damage as base with damage bonus loss against other units.
Did you even play Starcraft 1?
"This is not Warcraft in space" "It's much more...... Sophisticated" "I KNOW IT'S NOT 3D!!!"
Fir3fly
Profile Joined May 2009
Australia251 Posts
April 20 2011 16:59 GMT
#1547
im glad this thread is revived and i, too, agree with whats been said.
in SC2 you have the same amount of micro / apm but not as much control.

that being said, they are, sadly, two different games, and Blizzard would rather make it fairly easier so that other people can buy the game and play it.
lkjewq
Profile Joined November 2010
United States132 Posts
April 20 2011 17:04 GMT
#1548
I stopped reading after the OP said phoenix werent the counter to mutas. SIGH. SC2 is more counter oriented than BW and thus it will be harder to balance. It's more reliant on STRATEGY than MECHANICS.
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-20 17:05:54
April 20 2011 17:05 GMT
#1549
I didn't agree with this post before and I don't agree with it now either.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-20 17:10:31
April 20 2011 17:07 GMT
#1550
On April 21 2011 02:04 Bearclan wrote:
I stopped reading after the OP said phoenix werent the counter to mutas. SIGH. SC2 is more counter oriented than BW and thus it will be harder to balance. It's more reliant on STRATEGY than MECHANICS.


Jesus christ, READ THE DATE OF THE ARTICLE, it is more then a year Ago, guess what? Phoenixes DID NOT SHOOT WHILE MOVING BACK THEN they were not the direct counter to mutalisks back then because of that .

It is an old thread.
WriterXiao8~~
blubbdavid
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Switzerland2412 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-20 17:16:11
April 20 2011 17:10 GMT
#1551
On April 21 2011 02:07 Kipsate wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2011 02:04 Bearclan wrote:
I stopped reading after the OP said phoenix werent the counter to mutas. SIGH. SC2 is more counter oriented than BW and thus it will be harder to balance. It's more reliant on STRATEGY than MECHANICS.


Jesus christ, READ THE DATE OF THE ARTICLE, it is more then a year Ago, guess what? Phoenixes didn't SHOOT WHILE MOVING back then, they were not the direct counter to mutalisks back then because of that .


Exactly. Phoenixes sucked back then.
And I am glad that this post got bumped, I loved this thread a year ago and still love it now. One of the few posts, which deserve to be stickied.

(And I almost expected baller to have bumped it.)

EDIT: To the guy below me:
Plz a list with units with moving shot.
Have you even read the thread properly?
What do you desire? Money? Glory? Power? Revenge? Or something that surpasses all other? Whatever you desire - that is here. Tower of God ¦¦Nutella, drink of the Gods
Yaotzin
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4280 Posts
April 20 2011 17:14 GMT
#1552
Dumb to necro a thread half of which is about something that isn't even relevent anymore.

Other stuff is just straight up wrong, like saying SC2 has no units with moving shot.
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-20 17:36:16
April 20 2011 17:27 GMT
#1553
On April 21 2011 01:51 Fyrewolf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2010 08:32 LaLuSh wrote:
The problem that arises is: you can never engage with an inferior force against a superior one.


What the hell kind of logic is this? You can't engage a superior force because it is SUPERIOR, not because you can't outmicro a superior force. The enemy can micro too. Micro shouldn't magically make you beat your opponent, it just lets you get more use out of your units, which doesn't mean you get enough use out of them to crush the opponent no matter what. The opponent can do micro to increase his units strength too. The SUPERIOR force should win.


a smaller army beating a larger one happens all the time in broodwar. 2 lurkers on a ramp can hold off infinite marines. one defiler can hold off an entire bio army. 2 HT can destroy 20+ hydras. 2 scourge and an overlord can repeatedly mean that a giant protoss goon/zeal/HT ball can only creep forward slowly against just a few lurkers. flash vs soulkey, tvz on grandline, 11 marines and 2 medics rapes 4 lurkers and 10 lings. ggplay vs iris on python, 1 defiler, 1 lurker, and 10 lings completely shut down iris' huge mnm tank vessel army. bisu vs flash on HBR; flash is 20 supply down on bisu in his tank/vult attack but if bisu didn't micro like a god vs flash he would have gotten destroyed. how about tempest's 33 kill dragoon vs light? jangbi vs nada, et cetera et cetera. the same sort of "i have less than half your units but i'm going to win anyways" isn't possible in sc2.
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
April 20 2011 17:32 GMT
#1554
I believe you guy are missing the point on how much the game has changed back then. A lot of what LaLush says was indeed true. Phoenix were forced to change to counteract mutas better is an example and magic box was discovered. It is a interesting find of reviving this thread and now we can see how the game was back then and where it is headed now.
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
Techno
Profile Joined June 2010
1900 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-20 17:37:36
April 20 2011 17:37 GMT
#1555
Starcraft 2 is a different game.
I love SC2 Terran.
Hell, its awesome to LOSE to nukes!
Rick Roy
Profile Joined March 2011
United States59 Posts
April 20 2011 17:43 GMT
#1556
Just give the game some time, the people at Blizzard are not stupid. They listen to all these suggestions and ideas. It's going to be a work in progress for years to come. I think with this engine the game can be changed and refined to be completely different. In a year from now it may not even resemble the same game.
Silent331
Profile Joined June 2010
United States356 Posts
April 20 2011 18:11 GMT
#1557
OP is 100% right, and if you say the phenixes changed so its all happy land now you are a retard.

This is why I can say that I have never ended a game and said "man, I got out played"
They cant beat you, They only hope you beat yourself.
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
April 20 2011 18:32 GMT
#1558
I always find it funny when people insist that flaws in old engines are actually designed with consequences in mind. As if the moving shot was planned all along from the start. Guess what, when they made the game, they made it work. There was little focus on things like "how will this affect the metagame?!" I very much doubt the designers pondered "if the attack animation is instant, THEY CAN MOVE WHILE ATTACKING (with proper micro)!!!" It's the same story with things like wave dash in SSBM. Overall flaws in the engine which became such an integral part of play that it wasn't worth the effort to fix.
ChaseR
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Norway1004 Posts
April 20 2011 18:37 GMT
#1559
I am a bit worried that everyone suddenly stopped questioning Dustin Browder and Blizzard after the Starcraft II Beta was released. How come we all settled for less, when what we should have been doing – if anything – was asking for at least as much as we had before? No chat rooms, no ability to switch in between servers, no LAN support, no whisper functionality, no DND, unlimited unit selection, rally point to minerals, MBS, no moving shot; the list goes on and on. One compromise after the other.
The OP was worth reading none the less, it's still relevant.
Life is not Fucking Fair and Society is not Fucking Logical - "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-20 18:39:34
April 20 2011 18:39 GMT
#1560
Amazing OP imo - i dont mind this being necroed. Bring back muta / moving shots micro!
griffith.583 (NA)
Prev 1 76 77 78 79 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
10:00
2025 GSL S2 - Qualifiers
CranKy Ducklings56
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EnDerr 24
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 24130
Horang2 1476
Pusan 1471
EffOrt 732
Bisu 442
Shuttle 333
TY 149
hero 87
Last 61
HiyA 61
[ Show more ]
ggaemo 48
sSak 33
Movie 27
Backho 25
Sacsri 15
NaDa 15
soO 6
sorry 3
Bale 3
ivOry 1
Dota 2
Dendi1972
XcaliburYe629
League of Legends
JimRising 391
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King112
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor244
Other Games
B2W.Neo1574
mouzStarbuck483
Fuzer 295
SortOf183
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick701
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH269
• Dystopia_ 4
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota283
League of Legends
• Stunt578
Upcoming Events
AllThingsProtoss
41m
SC Evo League
1h 41m
Road to EWC
4h 41m
BSL Season 20
7h 41m
Dewalt vs TT1
UltrA vs HBO
WolFix vs TBD
Afreeca Starleague
18h 41m
BeSt vs Soulkey
AllThingsProtoss
1d
Road to EWC
1d 3h
Wardi Open
2 days
SOOP
2 days
NightMare vs Wayne
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
GSL Code S
3 days
Cure vs Zoun
Solar vs Creator
The PondCast
3 days
Online Event
4 days
Clem vs ShoWTimE
herO vs MaxPax
GSL Code S
4 days
GuMiho vs Bunny
ByuN vs SHIN
Online Event
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-16
2025 GSL S1
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Heroes 10 EU
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.