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Oh Micro, Where Art Thou? - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 77 78 79 Next
ghosthunter
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States414 Posts
April 27 2010 00:05 GMT
#41
I enjoy SC2 as is, without the twitch micro that BW involved. I'm actually fine with almost everything going on right now except for a few units being absolutely useless, and a few strats being dominating, but that's honestly a balance issue, not a micro issue.
BalloonFight
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States2007 Posts
April 27 2010 00:07 GMT
#42
On April 27 2010 09:05 Excalibur_Z wrote:
This post is just too long to respond to in full. It's also completely off-base.

You make the false assumption that bugs from BW such as true moving shots were intended. It's arguable whether that should be added back in because it does widen the skill gap which is always good. Mutas are already excellent indirect containment and harassment units, they would be even more powerful if their BW incarnations carried over. For all you know, this was a conscious decision by Blizzard.


this is irrelevant to his argument. It "was" that way and thats all that matters. Whether it was purposeful or not is not important. Additionally, I'm sure they can emulate a "buggy" code from 1998 in 2010.
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
April 27 2010 00:08 GMT
#43
On April 27 2010 09:04 zazen wrote:
SC2 takes pretty much no skill. It doesn't mean that SC2 sucks. It's fun as hell, but just insanely easy to play when compared to BW. I mean, my D- friend beat Nony in SC2...

Blizzard believes that making the game much easier to play will make it more popular, and they are probably right...

BW is gone, and no game will ever be as hard to play as BW was because it's not something marketable anymore.


Ah so much truth in this post, the only exception being "BW is gone". BW isn't gone, not until all the leagues shut down, and I pray that never happens.
KTY
Jyvblamo
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada13788 Posts
April 27 2010 00:08 GMT
#44
I disagree with most of the points this article is trying to make, though I agree with many of its analysis of details, especially moving shot vs gliding shot.

Do we have conclusive evidence to support this? No, not really. But somewhere in our hearts we know it to be true. We feel in our hearts, without being able to explain it, that Starcraft 2 is a game where one’s strategic choices make up for more than one’s individual skill. Somewhere all of us get the feeling that the build orders we choose are of greater importance than the way we micro. That the number of units we produce is of greater significance than the way we control them. Frankly put: that Starcraft 2 requires less skill.

The article could do with less paragraphs like this.
ghrur
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3786 Posts
April 27 2010 00:08 GMT
#45
Ooooh, very interesting find. So THAT'S what's wrong with the SCII micro mechanics. Hmm :p
darkness overpowering
Kralic
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada2628 Posts
April 27 2010 00:08 GMT
#46
On April 27 2010 09:07 BalloonFight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2010 09:05 Excalibur_Z wrote:
This post is just too long to respond to in full. It's also completely off-base.

You make the false assumption that bugs from BW such as true moving shots were intended. It's arguable whether that should be added back in because it does widen the skill gap which is always good. Mutas are already excellent indirect containment and harassment units, they would be even more powerful if their BW incarnations carried over. For all you know, this was a conscious decision by Blizzard.


this is irrelevant to his argument. It "was" that way and thats all that matters. Whether it was purposeful or not is not important. Additionally, I'm sure they can emulate a "buggy" code from 1998 in 2010.


Game engines have their limits...
Brood War forever!
zomgzergrush
Profile Joined August 2008
United States923 Posts
April 27 2010 00:09 GMT
#47
The basis of this entire article though is criticizing that a design flaw from bw is not in sc2.

"moving shot" was not the only design flaw in the sc1 engine that contributed largely to competitive skill differences. A myriad of issues and poor design paved the way for all competitive sc1. Scarab AI, ALL UNIT pathing AI, pushing units past minerals, air unit clumping when teaming with units off screen, the list goes on.

You guys really think that Blizz in the development of SC1 decided: Hey, lets make hold position fire faster than attack move and skip the de-acceleration sequence before firing and then don't document it. Or: hey, let's make it so that air units stack when they have something grouped with them off screen. Does that sound realistic to you?

Even though by fixing all these issues, sc2 loses its skill gradient, it is completely unrealistic to expect the design flaws from sc1 to carry to sc2.
Bronze skipping straight to Diamond in 40 games retail release. Bnet 2.0 ladder really takes it's sweet time to think about that league placement.
MuffinDude
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3837 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-27 00:11:23
April 27 2010 00:09 GMT
#48
Yea. the micro mechanics are really really bad in sc2.

Great read.

On April 27 2010 09:09 zomgzergrush wrote:
The basis of this entire article though is criticizing that a design flaw from bw is not in sc2.

"moving shot" was not the only design flaw in the sc1 engine that contributed largely to competitive skill differences. A myriad of issues and poor design paved the way for all competitive sc1. Scarab AI, ALL UNIT pathing AI, pushing units past minerals, air unit clumping when teaming with units off screen, the list goes on.

You guys really think that Blizz in the development of SC1 decided: Hey, lets make hold position fire faster than attack move and skip the de-acceleration sequence before firing and then don't document it. Or: hey, let's make it so that air units stack when they have something grouped with them off screen. Does that sound realistic to you?

Even though by fixing all these issues, sc2 loses its skill gradient, it is completely unrealistic to expect the design flaws from sc1 to carry to sc2.

Then why don't blizzard take the design flaw and actually incorporated into SC2 as they are suppossed to be to increase the skill level.
Zerg can be so abusive sometimes | third member of the "loli is not a crime club" PM konadora to join!
iko
Profile Joined February 2010
New Zealand137 Posts
April 27 2010 00:09 GMT
#49
Amazing read. Hit the nail on the head.
NegativeSC
Profile Joined April 2010
35 Posts
April 27 2010 00:10 GMT
#50
I totally agree with everything you have said in this thread. Now we wait for the blizzard fan boys to arrive and say: its a new game mmk, but until then, great job writing this dude.
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
April 27 2010 00:10 GMT
#51
Control is definitely one of the greatest aspects of the game, which is why I find those micro maps so damn fun to play. It's what seperates Bisu from Jaehoon, Flash from MVP, and Jaedong from s2, the truly sublime control of units. I really hope they bring back the moving shot, among other things.
Writerptrk
vilg
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark413 Posts
April 27 2010 00:11 GMT
#52
Very well written lalush and I agree wholeheartedly.
Half
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2554 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-27 00:14:56
April 27 2010 00:11 GMT
#53
On April 27 2010 09:08 Jyvblamo wrote:
I disagree with most of the points this article is trying to make, though I agree with many of its analysis of details, especially moving shot vs gliding shot.

Show nested quote +
Do we have conclusive evidence to support this? No, not really. But somewhere in our hearts we know it to be true. We feel in our hearts, without being able to explain it, that Starcraft 2 is a game where one’s strategic choices make up for more than one’s individual skill. Somewhere all of us get the feeling that the build orders we choose are of greater importance than the way we micro. That the number of units we produce is of greater significance than the way we control them. Frankly put: that Starcraft 2 requires less skill.

The article could do with less paragraphs like this.


I would agree with this. You're so absolutely bloody right on all the changes your positing, but remember, the tones intended purpose is for developers, and if I were Dustin, I'd be a bit peeved to read something like that.


It isn't that SC2 isn't good, it is, but its lost some of the qualities that made BW awesome, like the sheer amount of control a player could apply to his units. I think removing some of the confrontational tone would greatly improve the chances of the suggestions you're positing being implemented in some degree.
Too Busy to Troll!
ComradeDover
Profile Joined November 2009
Bulgaria758 Posts
April 27 2010 00:12 GMT
#54
On April 27 2010 09:03 zomgzergrush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2010 09:02 rickxross wrote:
Article is very awesome, but could use a hint of less Dustin Browder bashing. It gets tiring reading that again and again.

Well no need to refrain from any statements if they're true...


Ingrate. >:[
Bring back 2v2s!
sup3rchan
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada127 Posts
April 27 2010 00:12 GMT
#55
Interesting view, I agree with a lot of the points made here. Changes need to be made to move the game into a more overall micro intensive game from the current a-move balls of maxed armies clashing in the middle of the map.
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
April 27 2010 00:13 GMT
#56
Beautiful article. I agree with everything. Hell, we could even pass off the units firing immediately/ moving shot as a way for units to dish "terrible terrible damage" even faster when trying to get blizz to change things. Apparently its the only thing Browder understands.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Teejing
Profile Joined January 2009
Germany1360 Posts
April 27 2010 00:13 GMT
#57
100% agree , i realized this too at the start, but i already forgot about it
HaruHaru
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States988 Posts
April 27 2010 00:13 GMT
#58
Great read, i defintly feel the difference between sc1 and sc2... it just isnt the same :/
Long live BroodWar!
Ranix
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States666 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-27 00:14:34
April 27 2010 00:13 GMT
#59
On April 27 2010 09:04 zazen wrote:
I mean, my D- friend beat Nony in SC2...


I understand it is a hyperbole, but come on man!
Legends never gg
Liquid`Ret
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Netherlands4511 Posts
April 27 2010 00:14 GMT
#60
I miss the feeling of being in total control of the game so much.
Team Liquid
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