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On April 24 2010 11:10 sysrpl wrote:
I would like add my voice to the opinion that this change is a horrible idea.
Arbitrary decisions to reduce the fluid use of the game interface only serves to frustrate game players. If being in your base is important, then players who decide to spend game time in their base will do better than those who do not. Creating a system which forces you to go back to your base for no reason other than to force you to go back to your base is just an attempt to create unnecessary busy work.
Perhaps the developers would have better spent their time improving units or game mechanics rather than putting up road blocks.
This a thousand times. This change is contrary to a philosophy that's been in sc2 from the start and is showing good results imo.
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United States7166 Posts
On April 24 2010 11:08 SayaSP wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2010 10:41 Zelniq wrote:
i just wish backspace wasnt so damn far away. maybe i'll have to rebind a key or something, worried about the legality of such moves though rebind to tilde? oh no imba he changed it from backspace to tilde unfair advantage oasdfaosofud
I'm considering it but it requires me to edit MPQ files, and I'm not sure if 1. they can detect it and 2. what they'll do if they find out, ban me or whatever. i feel like it's probably ok but still
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Player action must be tied to player decision.
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Clicking fast is as much of a skill as strategy, as much as you self-styled strategical geniuses would like to believe otherwise.
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Oh well at least we get the F keys to balance this out.
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there goes never ever looking at my base
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I guess this makes Terran the new easy race 
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It's ridiculous and makes it all so artificial... Pff. sad.
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WHY DO SPORTS REQUIRE PHYSICAL FITNESS TO PLAY, IT SHOULD BE A TEST OF SKILL, NOT WHO SPENDS MORE TIME AT THE GYM.
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People complaining about dumbing down UI, did you think to consider that they never actually intended to allow it?
If they put queens larva on auto-cast would that be better for everyone? geez, just play the game and get better instead of complaining, you have another aspect of your game you can practice and get better than somebody else at
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SoleSteeler: the game was already real time with plenty of constant time pressure. Eliminating a UI element just to make one simple ability slightly more 'skills testing' seems stupid.
What are your thoughts on my argument that this unfairly punishes Zerg since their macro mechanic is the only one that irreversibly loses significant econ advantage by delaying for a few seconds to finish microing a fight?
Again, I know there must be some time pressure of this sort, but you completely ignored my primary argument, which is that it's a slippery slope. You can always find ways to make the controls less intuitive or convenient to make it harder to get units to do exactly what you want quickly. They could reintroduce the 12 unit control cap, for example. Most people seem to agree that would be a bad idea. What makes this specific change uniquely a good idea? How can this balance philosophy ever be applied consistently without leading to a horribly unfun, broken control scheme?
I'm fine with balance decisions designed to increase time pressure on players, but eliminating convenient control methods because the alternative way to do it takes longer seems like an atrocious design philosophy in general.
Why not require buildings to be on-screen to queue new units, too, for example? This would also be inconvenient, but it would have exactly the same effect of forcing players to return their map view to their base more often while macroing. If you agree that change would be bad, what makes it theoretically different from this change? Is it just because Blizzard tacitly admits that macro mechanics are stupid and poorly thought out and need some weird, counter-intuitive method of 'fixing' them to simulate being skills testing? The original idea was that the strategic decision of when to use them was supposed to be the skills testing aspect of the mechanic. Have they just given up on that, at least for Zerg, and decided to make it a time suck instead?
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United States7166 Posts
I think this change is for the most part a good thing, it was just too easy before.
But right now it does feel a little bit unfairly time-consuming/difficult compared to the other races, when players have 4-ish bases. but once they add the functionality to change hotkeys through text files, it should be ok then
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On April 24 2010 12:34 dthree wrote:
People complaining about dumbing down UI, did you think to consider that they never actually intended to allow it?
If they put queens larva on auto-cast would that be better for everyone? geez, just play the game and get better instead of complaining, you have another aspect of your game you can practice and get better than somebody else at
He speaks the truth.
Would u like WoW players to beat u because of all the automicro/macro you want?
If you do please quit SC
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On April 24 2010 12:28 Archerofaiur wrote:Player action must be tied to player decision.
This sums up the objection, pretty much. Wanting to add new layers of time pressure to the game is fine. Making macro mechanics a better form of time pressure is great. The problem is, instead of redesigning the mechanics to require some meaningful decision to be made when moving to your base, the sole purpose of this change is to make something take more button clicks to accomplish once the player has already decided on the specific action, target, etc. they plan to use. "Clicking fast" is only a skill if you have to think on your feet while doing so. Taking something that took one specific click and making it take three or four specific clicks for the exact same result is a bad way to increase the number of actions players are incentivized to perform at any given time. The fact that it trades off with spending time doing other things that involve actually adapting plans and making decisions is, in my mind, another downside, not a strength.
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I like this.
But I'm in favor of anything that increases the skill gap so there's my bias.
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On April 24 2010 12:36 Ursad0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2010 12:34 dthree wrote:
People complaining about dumbing down UI, did you think to consider that they never actually intended to allow it?
If they put queens larva on auto-cast would that be better for everyone? geez, just play the game and get better instead of complaining, you have another aspect of your game you can practice and get better than somebody else at He speaks the truth. Would u like WoW players to beat u because of all the automicro/macro you want? If you do please quit SC
If the only way you can beat people who suck at the game is because they were distracted doing macro busywork in their base at a key moment, I think you are the one who sucks. This doesn't add some brilliant new challenging skill to the game; it adds another click every time you want to do one particular game action. Sure, bad players may do even worse because they are slow at doing this, but anyone with a chance of winning against a decent opponent is not gonna be thrown off so severely as that. I prefer beating bad players by knowing the game better, having a better strategy and microing my units better in battle, anyway, but again - if you see this change as tipping the outcome of many games, either you or your typical opponents are clearly god awful and you have no business throwing around insults about others' skill levels.
We're not saying anything should be automatic. We're saying once you have selected a unit, activated an ability on that unit and selected your target, there's no reason it should take map movement or more than one final click to target and cast the ability. Autocasting spawn larvae would be an even worse change than this one, but this one is bad, too. Quit poking at straw men and throwing around unwarranted insults.
This talk of 'skill gap' is confusing to me. Would you like the game better if they forced everyone to play it in Klingon, because it would add another skill most people don't have that you could develop to beat bad players? Skill to me is about microing precision and making intelligent choices. By micro precision I mean targeting that psi storm, move order, etc. just right in a split second. Making an easy, brainless task take half a second longer does not make it require any more skill, beyond the absolutely marginal skill increase required to handle a half second or so longer time spent macroing. It adds 'busywork' - a series of player actions required to implement a single actual in-game action. I guess it comes down to a fundamental disagreement on game design: either player actions should be tied to player decisions, or more player actions is always better no matter what.
Maybe they should change macro mechanics to require you to tap a hotkey as many times as possible in a short period of time. It wouldn't involve any strategic thought, but it would allow another artificial 'skill gap' between noobs and experienced players based on mastery of the archaic details of the interface.
Or, you know, you could go back to BW if you think having a convenient, modern UI is 'dumbing the game down.'
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The funeral for the Zerg race will be held at noon
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For the less, we'll lets say "competitive" among us (the ones who aren't as good) wouldn't it make a little more sense now to have an extra hatchery or two at bases just like in BW? I mean, sure, it's a little more expensive than a queen up front, but if I can't quite macro in the middle of battle well enough, then my queen can spawn larvae on two hatches instead of one. Sure it's not as optimal, but to be honest, not a lot about my play is perfectly optimal, and this will at least allow me to use that excess queen energy in the same way a terran can call down multiple mules or a protoss can CB multiple buildings.
In fact, I kinda like that, I like the feel of zerg with more hatches. Try it and see!
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I don't see it as a problem. I usually did it at my base anyways.
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i think a lot of the more casual players are going to the extreme with their examples
Adding in some more difficulty in macro mechanics is a positive benefit as it adds another dimension to help separate bad from decent, decent from good, good from great, and great from gosu pro+++. This isn't some drastic OMGWTF change in the game that makes the game unplayable or ridiculously difficult, but it does add a taste of what macro was like in BW.
Mechanics and strategy go hand in hand with what makes players so great. Anyone can copy a build order or eat a bowl of copypasta when it comes to a specific MU, but only someone with sick mechanics and skill can actually perform it to the point where it matters. Anyone can copy a 3 hatch muta build from bw for example, but it's the mechanical skill of microing muta that makes the game fun, exciting to watch, and CHALLENGING.
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EPT
