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Posted this on the blizz forums, I'd put it in a new thread here because it feels like a thread starter but I haven't had my account for long. =(
As a platinum zerg player, my opinion may be slightly biased, but at least I'm being open about it and hopefully I'll provide an unbiased response.
Changing the wireframe casting does force more skill-intensive macro play, which I feel is a GOOD thing. Good protoss players should be going back to base to chronoboost more units, Terran to drop mules, and zerg to spawn larvae. All while managing everything else that's happening on the map.
So, what do the 3 races actually lose from not doing this consistently (due to poor management, intensive micro, ect. ect.)?
Protoss:
Essentially nothing, Unless there is only one building that you actually want to chronoboost repeatedly in which case the chrono's could not be stacked, and time is lost.
Units not boosted during this time would arrive to reinforce slightly later.
If the protoss player doesn't boost for so long that he caps on energy, it is more than fair that he loses efficiency and does not continue to build up boosts.
Terran:
Again, essentially nothing. Similar to chrono units, having the minerals from mule sooner rather than later is ideal but over a short time the disadvantage is made up as the mules will, end the end, still gather the minerals.
Like chrono, if the energy caps then minerals/min are lost for the terran, as is absolutely fair. However this is even less likely to happen as they will possibly be dropping scans (from hotkeys, not going back to base) during combat or situationally.
Zerg:
For every second between larvae injections, the zerg player is losing his ability to produce units which can NOT be made up with built up energy, which must simply go to waste (unless there are multiple hatcheries in one base, which is very uncommon and generally uneconomical).
It seems that Zerg are punished much, much sooner than terran or protoss. Which, to me, says that a terran or protoss player can lag far behind on macro during a battle, and almost nothing except a little bit of timeliness for their lack of vigilance.
So what could be done about this, without changing the wireframe mechanic?
1) Bringing other races down
One option that springs to mind is reducing the maximum energy on Orbital Command and Nexus, perhaps even halving it, or even specifically capping it at a maximum of 2 Orbital Command casts (2 mules, 2 scans, 1 of each) and 2 chronoboosts for the nexus. This would force the Terran and Protoss to macro more regularly, as zerg have to, with closer penalties.
2) Pushing zerg up
Another option would be to add "charges" on the hatchery for how many times it can be injected. Say, every 40 seconds it builds up a charge (to a maximum of X charges, 2 or 3 seems reasonable). Therefore a queen could burn at least some of their excess energy and catch up as if they had injected the entire time, losing almost exactly the same things as Terran and Protoss (timeliness, and if left for a long time, actual units/minerals) while maintaining the same advantages as Terran and Protoss (If left for a while, not too long, there is nothing lost in the longer run).
3) Changing spawn larvae cooldown on hatchery (not as ideal, but for consideration)
Right now, spawn larvae frequency is not realistically limited by energy (hardly, unless tumors are dropped), but time.
So, another option would be to allow spawn larvae to be cast more frequently, to reduce built up energy. There would be no need to change the duration of spawn larvae.
If spawn larvae could be cast on a hatchery every 20,25, or 30 seconds, excess energy could be used up in a useful way.
This option perhaps brings up a balance issue of multiple queens on one hatchery, significantly increasing larvae count, but I thought I'd put it in here as something to consider.
In conclusion:
This UI nerf does hit Zerg harder than Terran and Protoss. It can be made up for with very good, timely management of resources. However it does make the Zerg macro significantly harder to keep efficient.
I hope this small analysis has been helpful in some way, and a small rebalance is considered.
Also hope I haven't missed anything glaringly obvious.
P.S: Personal rant
God I wish I was a game designer I have so many freaking thought-out ideas. =P
Edit: Added idea 3.
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On April 24 2010 13:03 Sealteam wrote:
Protoss:
Essentially nothing, Unless there is only one building that you actually want to chronoboost repeatedly in which case the chrono's could not be stacked, and time is lost.
Units not boosted during this time would arrive to reinforce slightly later.
If the protoss player doesn't boost for so long that he caps on energy, it is more than fair that he loses efficiency and does not continue to build up boosts.
Terran:
Again, essentially nothing. Similar to chrono units, having the minerals from mule sooner rather than later is ideal but over a short time the disadvantage is made up as the mules will, end the end, still gather the minerals.
Like chrono, if the energy caps then minerals/min are lost for the terran, as is absolutely fair. However this is even less likely to happen as they will possibly be dropping scans (from hotkeys, not going back to base) during combat or situationally.
Zerg:
For every second between larvae injections, the zerg player is losing his ability to produce units which can NOT be made up with built up energy, which must simply go to waste (unless there are multiple hatcheries in one base, which is very uncommon and generally uneconomical).
It seems that Zerg are punished much, much sooner than terran or protoss. Which, to me, says that a terran or protoss player can lag far behind on macro during a battle, and almost nothing except a little bit of timeliness for their lack of vigilance.
Sums it up. Unfortunately Blizz devs don't play competitively so they have no clue what the hell is up.
Terran: Spam mules later, even if you forgot some. You HAVE to be looking at minerals ANWAY to spam the mules. Big fuckn deal.
Protoss: Lategame there's really nothing left to chronoboost besides occasional upgrades and robo units. Not to mention you can spread it across other stuff later if you ever do forget.
Zerg: Wasn't looking at your base all game? Missed some injection? Too fucking bad, you missed out on those larvae for the rest of the game. Now lets take out remote injection too to make it harder! It's okay, out of all 3 races, we have to look at our army the least, right? We can just sit looking at our base all day, we have the time. I mean it's not like our army has low HP and dies quickly or something.
Wireframe casting was pretty much an exclusive Z thing and now they removed it for reasons that are COMPLETELY unrelated!
YAY
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Just a question about the potential major bug with the protoss chrono boosting thing:
If the wireframes shows us which warpgates are in which stage of cooldown, how can we now chrono boost the right warp gates?
That is to say, the wireframe indicates the cooldown, but since we can no longer click chrono boost on the wireframe we are left to guess which warpgates are most need of a boost.
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I really like the change and I think this was a good step for macro in SC2. Well done Blizzard!
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It was easier for terran to use than zerg to use larva when zerg was able to use wireframes. Now its not even close...
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How can anyone be in doubt about blizz after this move . saying they are catering to casuals is beyond stupid at this point. ily blizz
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Since someone tried to make a golf analogy, and another poster mostly ignored the point of the analogy by bringing up the physical aspect of playing golf I thought up of a more PC related one.
How do you start up your sc2 client? I think most people click on a shortcut on their desktop, or in the start menu.
Clearly this is dumbing down, and reduces skill. Instead, Blizz should only make the sc2 client launch, if you run cmd, and then type:
CD\Program Files\Starcraft II Beta
Starcraft II.exe
Since everyone using a pc has to type, this would as a layer of skill that would separate the scrubs to true gamers who have the dedication to practice.
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On April 24 2010 13:40 Argali wrote:
Since someone tried to make a golf analogy, and another poster mostly ignored the point of the analogy by bringing up the physical aspect of playing golf I thought up of a more PC related one.
How do you start up your sc2 client? I think most people click on a shortcut on their desktop, or in the start menu.
Clearly this is dumbing down, and reduces skill. Instead, Blizz should only make the sc2 client launch, if you run cmd, and then type:
CD\Program Files\Starcraft II Beta
Starcraft II.exe
Since everyone using a pc has to type, this would as a layer of skill that would separate the scrubs to true gamers who have the dedication to practice.
And this is the kind of post that is, bluntly put, fucking retarded.
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so it wasn't just a beta-error...?
ffs... why would anybody endorse a UI inferior to wc3?
actually... i had hoped they'd enhance the wireframe stuff for barracks with different addons: when i click a rax with a reactor, it selects the single one, not "all of the same kind"
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the slippery slope argument is a retarded one if they remove * one * interface feature
you can start calling slippery slope after then do three or more
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On April 24 2010 13:43 Elegy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2010 13:40 Argali wrote:
Since someone tried to make a golf analogy, and another poster mostly ignored the point of the analogy by bringing up the physical aspect of playing golf I thought up of a more PC related one.
How do you start up your sc2 client? I think most people click on a shortcut on their desktop, or in the start menu.
Clearly this is dumbing down, and reduces skill. Instead, Blizz should only make the sc2 client launch, if you run cmd, and then type:
CD\Program Files\Starcraft II Beta
Starcraft II.exe
Since everyone using a pc has to type, this would as a layer of skill that would separate the scrubs to true gamers who have the dedication to practice. And this is the kind of post that is, bluntly put, fucking retarded.
Is kinda extreme, but while reading this thread, someone trying to get his point across, concerning how adding extra clicks, or key presses, to artificially add "skill", made a sport analogy of playing just one handed, another posted kinda ignored his point and tried to nullify his argument by saying the golf, being a physical sport, has a physical component to it.
So, I had an extreme example that has a physical component every poster here has - typing.
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Economy has exponential growth. If you're chrono boosting late or muleing late then typically you're getting workers later and/or expansions later and thus hurting your economy, thus hurting your overall macro position.
I don't really buy the this drastically affects Z but barely affects P&T argument.
All 3 mechanics are incompressible.
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Making super extreme examples is completely fucking retarded. It's like saying "you like rally points, mbs, and other automation? why not just have computers do opening builds and automatically micro troops for you." It's a vacuous and stupid argument that's not good for anything.
The reason people want macro to be harder is so there can be macro-micro tension. The reason people want the game to only launch from command prompt... I don't know, maybe they want to make the game fair for people who don't have hands. Or something. I don't fucking know.
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You can still use the minimap for spawn lava tho right? If so this is kinda pointless
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Play smarter, not harder.
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i like the removal of the wire frames: almost like bw....back to pointless repetition yay..
however, now you can't tell which warpgate is at what cool down..
hope they put an indicator on that..
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On April 24 2010 13:53 EmeraldSparks wrote:
Making super extreme examples is completely fucking retarded. It's like saying "you like rally points, mbs, and other automation? why not just have computers do opening builds and automatically micro troops for you." It's a vacuous and stupid argument that's not good for anything.
The reason people want macro to be harder is so there can be macro-micro tension. The reason people want the game to only launch from command prompt... I don't know, maybe they want to make the game fair for people who don't have hands. Or something. I don't fucking know.
Then perhaps when a poster makes a reasonable argument, point A, and to make it easier to understand, makes analogy B, we should all just provide counter arguments to point A, rather than trying to browbeat his point by poking holes in his analogy.
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Or maybe people just shouldn't make self-defeating analogies.
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The designers really like the idea of having the player need to get back to their base and take care of these special abilities instead of being able to control them remotely while looking elsewhere
Finally!! There is little hope left.
Oh yes and...IN YOUR FACE!
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well... until we can play starcraft (II) with touch screens, we're limited by the UI.
crippling it ~five years into the past doesn't help anybody, it doesn't enhance the experience or w/e their blah is, and it sure doesn't make for more exciting battles.
the better players will always be better. either by getting more spells/abilities off in the heat of battle or via excellent micro, by keeping an eye on the minimap, by constantly scouting etc.
... or by having mad wireframe skills and being able to manage a base "blindly".
apart from that... "spawn larvae" can be cast on the minimap. zergs should be very careful about complaining the hardest.
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EPT
