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On April 24 2010 13:52 Jaeger wrote:
Economy has exponential growth. If you're chrono boosting late or muleing late then typically you're getting workers later and/or expansions later and thus hurting your economy, thus hurting your overall macro position.
I don't really buy the this drastically affects Z but barely affects P&T argument.
All 3 mechanics are incompressible.
I play all three races. I feel the zerg macro mechanic, while powerful, was already the least forgiving of missed timingt, and that zerg ultimately are balanced around near perfect use of injection.
The wireframe change hurts zerg the worst.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that it some how cripples zerg, I will only say that it forces zerg to spend more time in their base than protoss or terran, which IMO does nothing to increase the pleasure of playing this race.
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On April 24 2010 13:57 EmeraldSparks wrote:
Or maybe people just shouldn't make self-defeating analogies.
The analogy is by liq3, on page 4. Which from my comprehension of it :
You can play golf with 2 hands, however, clearly that is too easy. Professional golfing should have a rule where you can only play one handed. This adds a layer of skill.
To which another poster commented :
But golf is a physical sport! Where you have to move your arms and body! Therefore your point is invalid.
The point of adding an artificial layer of difficulty still stands; if someone decides to rubbish the point by poking at the analogy rather than the point, evil imps like me appear to provide extreme examples.
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wtf does anyone think this is a good idea
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This is obviously a ploy to nerf the Queen's ability to use Transfusion during battle via wireframe. They even said they were nerfing Queen rush. SO OBVIOUS.
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I don't like the idea of managing a macro ability through the unit selection box at the bottom of the screen. It seems counterintuitive to the goal of the ability.
However, spawn larvae's throughput over the course of a game is a function of time, not of energy. Chrono boost's seconds saved over the course of a game is a function of energy, and mule uptime is a function of energy as well. Additionally, Terrans have spell tension on their orbital commands with the MULE vs Scan, and Protoss have warp gates as a location specific function-of-time ability.
So, I believe they need to rethink this slightly. The current state is unfair to Protoss who already need to manage their warp gates in addition to chrono boosting any one of a number of structures. If they simply give the queen more spell tension, Zerg will be good with this change. As it stands, leftover energy on your queen is a direct measure to how poor you're macroing, and that's silly. She has 3 abilities for a reason (I concede that you should spawn at least 1, if not 2 creep tumors throughout a game, and spread them. Typically I do this early when larvae throughput isn't the main issue)
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Old: 5, r, click.
New: 5, 5, v, click
Old: 5, r, shift-click-click
New: 5, 5, v, click, 6, 6, v, click
Old: 5, r, shift-click-click-click.
New: 5, 5, v, click, 6, 6, v, click, 7, 7, v, click
Old: 5, r, shift-click-click-click-click
New: 5, 5, r, Sir, you've burrowed your queen.
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On April 24 2010 14:50 codewarrior wrote:
Old: 5, r, shift-click-click-click.
New: 5, 5, v, click, 6, 6, v, click, 7, 7, v, click
Man its just twice as tedious as before get over it man like seriously.
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On April 24 2010 14:50 codewarrior wrote:
Old: 5, r, shift-click-click-click-click
New: 5, 5, r, Sir, you've burrowed your queen.
LOL so true
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I dislike artificial barriers to create "skill" differences for the sake of creating skill differences. This was the MO in Brood Wars, and it's why strategy takes a back seat to macrocanics because just mastering the basics was a very challenging task (one I personally never had the time or desire to fully achieve).
Wireframe casting was one of my favorite things as a zerg player in SC2, since it let me stockpile my larva easily enough without getting screwed over by not being able to look at what's occurring on the screen. In the same vein, why don't they just remove control groups? I mean, if I'm not watching my units move, I clearly am not participating enough.
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I said it before but it got buried, why not make another hatch if it's too hard? Zergs used to do that all the time right? But in a second hatch, and if you're queen builds up energy because of distractions, use it on the second hatch. A hatch is only 150 minerals more than a queen, increases your larvae, and has a huge reward in allowing you to cast spawn larvae twice if you miss-macro and the queens energy gets too high.
Not optimum, but effective if you have a hard time keeping up with the macro. Not a solution for experts, who will just have to be better, but a good solution for beginning to intermediate players I think.
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United States7166 Posts
On April 24 2010 14:50 codewarrior wrote:
Old: 5, r, click.
New: 5, 5, v, click
Old: 5, r, shift-click-click
New: 5, 5, v, click, 6, 6, v, click
Old: 5, r, shift-click-click-click.
New: 5, 5, v, click, 6, 6, v, click, 7, 7, v, click
Old: 5, r, shift-click-click-click-click
New: 5, 5, r, Sir, you've burrowed your queen.
well re-learning hotkeys is just muscle memory training, you can learn that and get used to it. though I think the reasoning for the change is a little absurd, they shouldn't need to change 2 fundamentally important hotkeys Spawn Larvae and Burrow with just the chance that zerg may make warpgates if he neural parasites a probe.
I think this change for more work needed to spawn larvae is good except the one issue i have with it is that now the methods of macroing involve having to reach a far away hotkey, making it very hard to macro. once you get 4 or so plus hatches, your hotkeys reach 8 and 9 and that's pretty far to reach every 40 ingame seconds quickly. the other method, Backspace, is even further. and trying to spawn larvae by clicking on the hatch @ minimap is hard, you have to get it pretty damn accurate for it to cast, and larger maps are really hard to click it.
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On April 24 2010 16:27 LaughingTulkas wrote:
I said it before but it got buried, why not make another hatch if it's too hard? Zergs used to do that all the time right? But in a second hatch, and if you're queen builds up energy because of distractions, use it on the second hatch. A hatch is only 150 minerals more than a queen, increases your larvae, and has a huge reward in allowing you to cast spawn larvae twice if you miss-macro and the queens energy gets too high.
Not optimum, but effective if you have a hard time keeping up with the macro. Not a solution for experts, who will just have to be better, but a good solution for beginning to intermediate players I think.
Unfortunately, that only lengthens the time period in which you learn to keep a larva spawn clock in your head. By allowing yourself to get punished for failing to macro on time, you learn far quicker.
Only a good solution for beginning to intermediate players who either don't care about improving, or don't care about improving quickly.
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On April 24 2010 16:40 Argali wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2010 16:27 LaughingTulkas wrote:
I said it before but it got buried, why not make another hatch if it's too hard? Zergs used to do that all the time right? But in a second hatch, and if you're queen builds up energy because of distractions, use it on the second hatch. A hatch is only 150 minerals more than a queen, increases your larvae, and has a huge reward in allowing you to cast spawn larvae twice if you miss-macro and the queens energy gets too high.
Not optimum, but effective if you have a hard time keeping up with the macro. Not a solution for experts, who will just have to be better, but a good solution for beginning to intermediate players I think. Unfortunately, that only lengthens the time period in which you learn to keep a larva spawn clock in your head. By allowing yourself to get punished for failing to macro on time, you learn far quicker. Only a good solution for beginning to intermediate players who either don't care about improving, or don't care about improving quickly.
My point is that a lot of people think they are now just totally screwed, when really other options exist. Or maybe it's just that I WANT there to be some choice in getting a queen or a hatch, and not just a queen everytime.
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Getting another hatch instead of a queen is such a big loss. For 200 minerals (don't forget you lose the drone) you get a lesser larvae production, you lose the ability to "stack" larvaes (up to 19), you lose a very valuable early game defender (amazing AA and a solid tank against early push) and it takes longer to get some use out of it...
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Can't believe so many people are against this on the same community that was so critical about MBS.
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I am rather neutral on the decision. As a Z, I thought at first that it was gonna be terrible such a thing, but just trying out the other methods, I see that I wont miss it that much. Sure, it takes more time and takes your eyes away from the battle at hand (it there is one) but with habit and speed, we'll all be doing it almost as fast as the wireframe cast :-)
For any Zerg that doesn't know this, when you Press [BACKSPACE] it pedels through the different hatcheries/lairs/hives under your command. In the end, all you have to do now is group queens in one group, hatches in the other, then Backspace, Hotkey V click Backspace and repeat.
For Protoss it may be a little bit more tedious, but from my understanding point, for alot of protoss chrono boost is only used in early/mid game and ends up just saving up energy.
GLHFGG :-)
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lol. People just don't like change. Pretty hard life if your a beta tester. I never casted on wireframe anyway- and it doesn't take that much more time. You just have to not get freaked out when your screen jumps to the hatcheries. Remember, you can always click on the minimap to get back to your units.
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On April 24 2010 17:11 ploy wrote:
Can't believe so many people are against this on the same community that was so critical about MBS.
The people who are mostly complaining have less than 10 posts, who obviously haven't played bw at all.
edit: I loved how in BW players can be seperated into macro/micro players. Rarely can players do both perfectly at the same time (macro players like  Really don't micro that much vs Fantasy who pretty much destroys the other player just from harass) Just this alone is another level of decision making.
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I didn't even use the wireframe casting to begin with, so i really don't mind this change at all.
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EPT
