Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel. This means you cannot Spawn Larvae nor Chrono Boost by clicking on the building icons WTF!!
That is a good change..
If this is true then it single handedly pushes away all the casual/lower apm players from enjoying the game with arbitrary physical skill cap to succeed.
Casual/lower apm players don't need success to enjoy the game. Only competitive players need to be successful to enjoy the game :o
On April 23 2010 08:11 zergporn wrote: i can't get it. how u guys used that wireframe thing? I mean.. let's say for example all of ur queens were on 4 and all ur hatch on 5 - so how u were able to fast switch to ur base locations? 0 9 8 for locations? Or mini-map clicking or maybe even middle button screen move? well thats zerg discussion lol
anyways good change. simply because this nerf does not affect me at all, and seems like affects bunch of my opps.
You bound queens and hatcheries to the same key, and the game automatically choose the closest queen to do the injection.
On April 23 2010 08:11 zergporn wrote: i can't get it. how u guys used that wireframe thing? I mean.. let's say for example all of ur queens were on 4 and all ur hatch on 5 - so how u were able to fast switch to ur base locations? 0 9 8 for locations? Or mini-map clicking or maybe even middle button screen move? well thats zerg discussion lol
anyways good change. simply because this nerf does not affect me at all, and seems like affects bunch of my opps.
You used to have queens+hatchs in the same group and just use shift(hold)-r and click each wireframe of each hatchery.
Is there any chance, even if it's rare one. That the new icons are intended to show where units created from that building will spawn? Heard a lot of feedback that some need for improvement to how workers come out of creation buildings needed more options.
Totally just random thought, I guess I feel it does make sense in some regard. If they do allow players to pick side and the "Larva" would possible move to one of those icons and it becomes "glowing" or active so to speak.
I don't think gimping the UI is ever a valid choice from a game design perspective. The more, easier ways there are for players to control their units, the better. When you get held up over a stupid problem with the UI it doesn't help the actual game in any way. The proper thing to do would have been to make it easier to cast mules to the nearest mineral patch without having to look at the mineral patch. Actually removing a UI feature in the name of balance is retarded.
On April 23 2010 07:53 avilo wrote: wow, turning out to be an excellent, excellent patch by blizzard. Congrats on them realizing that there is such a thing as "interface balance," (being too easy, or too hard)and using it in their design process there is no reason to wonder why these guys are top tier RTS developers.
WTF is interface balance? There is nothing "too easy" or "too hard." That's like saying Protoss in BW is "easy," cause you just "1a2a3a."
Interface balance is a concept of how easy it is to play a game mechanically. You have RTS games such as dune, cnc1, war2 that are on one spectrum of the interface balance, aka way too hard and hindering input of what you can do in the game.
Then you have Starcraft, which is perfectly in between everything (theoretically) as you have a very nice interface, not too easy, but also not so hard. This is why Starcraft has the highest skill differential among top players period.
Then you have newer modern games that are very "easy," such as warcraft 3, redalert 3, cnc3, where macro and game input is very easy, almost too easy, such that the skill differential between top players is very little (that goes for cnc games, not war3).
So basically, you have the original RTS games that are one end, the newer RTS on the other end of interface balance, and Starcraft right smack dab in the middle.
and then you have SC2, which Blizzard has designed well enough that I would say from playing/watching has a high skill differential, while also having an easier interface than brood war, but not so easy it takes the skill differential of the game away like many other 1 year life cycle RTS games.
so you have:
Dune/cnc1 +++++++++++ SC BW ++++++++ SC2 +++++++++ cnc/war3/modern RTS that is interface balance...
That is an absurd concept. As far as I'm concerned, when X years from now and we can link minds with our computers, that is when RTS games can be perfected. How fast.well you can physically input something should have absolutely no bearing on a strategy game.
So judging from your recent posts, I can assume you think that Starcraft Broodwar is the shittiest RTS of all time beacuse of all the mindless UI and gameplay(unit AI) -hurdles you had to overcome in order to become a really good player?
I think alot of people have a different opinion about that on this site.
On April 23 2010 07:42 Senx wrote: Blizzard just made the game a tiny bit harder to macro well (for zergs and Protoss) and the QQ is just pouring in..
If we want this game to be a great e-sport, we should welcome changes like this. I know its hard for casual players to deal with, but most didn't even know about the wireframe-trick nor do they care about finding the most optimal way to play the game.
Let's make it so that when you call down a MULE, it doesn't start auto mining. You have to manually tell it to mine after it lands. This would be great since it adds more control and complexity to the game, and higher APM players would benefit from it.
And how is that on par with the other mechanics in difficulty? Now that every mechanic requires you to go back to your base it is now really unfair all the sudden. Gosh!
So do you agree that zerg players should be able to stockpile queen energy and cast multiple spawn larva on a hatchery at the same time?
Do you agree that zergs macro mechanic is the strongest out of the 3? Does it make sense that a stronger mechanic should also be harder to pull off?
If the answer is no, I can't really help you.
Whether the zerg macro mechanic is imba is not the issue. Your original claim was that all 3 macro mechanics require equal attention, which is false.
On April 23 2010 07:03 Zelniq wrote: the most major change I've found, that's extremely detrimental:
Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel. This means you cannot Spawn Larvae nor Chrono Boost by clicking on the building icons WTF!!
They must have done this to balance the zerg and protoss macro mechanics with the terran's mule which was the only mechanic which actually required you to go back to your base. I dont think I like that change though.
Yea that just doesn't make sense, why would they want all 3 macro mechanics to require similar amounts of attention???
Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel. This means you cannot Spawn Larvae nor Chrono Boost by clicking on the building icons WTF!!
That is a good change..
If this is true then it single handedly pushes away all the casual/lower apm players from enjoying the game with arbitrary physical skill cap to succeed.
Casual/lower apm players don't need success to enjoy the game. Only competitive players need to be successful to enjoy the game :o
I agree with Senx. This will drive new players away leaving Starcraft 2 just for us devoted fans.
This isn't true at all. Even though I was aware of the feature I went back to my base to do it all the time. I still manage to win games and Im in silver division which is decent imo. Im sure most less talented players dont use this function to begin with.
On April 23 2010 08:15 iLLusive wrote: Is there any chance, even if it's rare one. That the new icons are intended to show where units created from that building will spawn? Heard a lot of feedback that some need for improvement to how workers come out of creation buildings needed more options.
Totally just random thought, I guess I feel it does make sense in some regard. If they do allow players to pick side and the "Larva" would possible move to one of those icons and it becomes "glowing" or active so to speak.
There are decals outside of the spawning pool so I doubt it. It's probably just some random decoration, it really fit ok on the Nexus, but on hatchery/spawning pool it just looked plain stupid and I don't think many people would disagree there.
On April 23 2010 07:53 avilo wrote: wow, turning out to be an excellent, excellent patch by blizzard. Congrats on them realizing that there is such a thing as "interface balance," (being too easy, or too hard)and using it in their design process there is no reason to wonder why these guys are top tier RTS developers.
WTF is interface balance? There is nothing "too easy" or "too hard." That's like saying Protoss in BW is "easy," cause you just "1a2a3a."
Interface balance is a concept of how easy it is to play a game mechanically. You have RTS games such as dune, cnc1, war2 that are on one spectrum of the interface balance, aka way too hard and hindering input of what you can do in the game.
Then you have Starcraft, which is perfectly in between everything (theoretically) as you have a very nice interface, not too easy, but also not so hard. This is why Starcraft has the highest skill differential among top players period.
Then you have newer modern games that are very "easy," such as warcraft 3, redalert 3, cnc3, where macro and game input is very easy, almost too easy, such that the skill differential between top players is very little (that goes for cnc games, not war3).
So basically, you have the original RTS games that are one end, the newer RTS on the other end of interface balance, and Starcraft right smack dab in the middle.
and then you have SC2, which Blizzard has designed well enough that I would say from playing/watching has a high skill differential, while also having an easier interface than brood war, but not so easy it takes the skill differential of the game away like many other 1 year life cycle RTS games.
so you have:
Dune/cnc1 +++++++++++ SC BW ++++++++ SC2 +++++++++ cnc/war3/modern RTS that is interface balance...
That is an absurd concept. As far as I'm concerned, when X years from now and we can link minds with our computers, that is when RTS games can be perfected. How fast.well you can physically input something should have absolutely no bearing on a strategy game.
So judging from your recent posts, I can assume you think that Starcraft Broodwar is the shittiest RTS of all time beacuse of all the mindless UI and gameplay(unit AI) -hurdles you had to overcome in order to become a really good player?
I think alot of people have a different opinion about that on this site.
Way to not read posts. I had said that I am fine with limiting factors in terms of UI. But when you have something that improves UI, and then to go back and actively remove it, is beyond me.
If I thought SC was a shitty game I wouldn't be on this site watching streams at 5am every night.
On April 23 2010 07:42 Senx wrote: Blizzard just made the game a tiny bit harder to macro well (for zergs and Protoss) and the QQ is just pouring in..
If we want this game to be a great e-sport, we should welcome changes like this. I know its hard for casual players to deal with, but most didn't even know about the wireframe-trick nor do they care about finding the most optimal way to play the game.
Let's make it so that when you call down a MULE, it doesn't start auto mining. You have to manually tell it to mine after it lands. This would be great since it adds more control and complexity to the game, and higher APM players would benefit from it.
And how is that on par with the other mechanics in difficulty? Now that every mechanic requires you to go back to your base it is now really unfair all the sudden. Gosh!
So do you agree that zerg players should be able to stockpile queen energy and cast multiple spawn larva on a hatchery at the same time?
Do you agree that zergs macro mechanic is the strongest out of the 3? Does it make sense that a stronger mechanic should also be harder to pull off?
If the answer is no, I can't really help you.
Whether the zerg macro mechanic is imba is not the issue. Your original claim was that all 3 macro mechanics require equal attention, which is false.
On April 23 2010 07:03 Zelniq wrote: the most major change I've found, that's extremely detrimental:
Can no longer target spells/abilities on your buildings or units by clicking on their icons in the selected unit panel. This means you cannot Spawn Larvae nor Chrono Boost by clicking on the building icons WTF!!
They must have done this to balance the zerg and protoss macro mechanics with the terran's mule which was the only mechanic which actually required you to go back to your base. I dont think I like that change though.
Yea that just doesn't make sense, why would they want all 3 macro mechanics to require similar amounts of attention???
ITS BLASPHEMY I TELL YOU!
Where in my post did the word equal appear? I can't find it.
They changed zerg macro exactly as I was hoping they would, but then they changed spawn larvae from R to V... Why would you introduce the F hotkeys and then move spawn larvae twice as far from the F keys as they were previously? I mean they changed burrow from W to R for some reason, but last I checked queens do not burrow...
That there are times when UI limitations are good for gameplay is true. However Spawn Larva goes above and beyond any reasonable considerations for what is good gameplay.
The macro mechanics do not have to be without decision making. Orbital Command and Chronoboost proved that.
The macro mechanics do not have to be absolutly unforgiving. Orbital Command and Chronoboost proved that.
On April 23 2010 08:23 _EmIL_ wrote: lol didnt even know that Z had so easy to macro
wtf? So the "game" told the closest queen to inject the hatch? Such a crap tbh. doesnt deserve to be in the game
Thats why it was removed but it was also like that for protoss press W and all warp gates are selected which was dumb. I am glad both were removed (although I went to my base anyway :D)
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/4437/screenshot012iq.jpg)
there is no reason to wonder why these guys are top tier RTS developers. 
