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On April 05 2010 08:53 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote:
Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good:
-Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable
-Marauders have good range
-Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later)
-Marauders do bonus damage to armored units
-Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal
-Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units)
-Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders:
-Cannot attack air
-.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go:
-Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs)
-Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one)
-Banshees, BattleCruisers
-Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders
-Pheonixes with good micro
-Mutalisks
-Broodlords
-Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders.
The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff. You want the Marauder to be less boring and you want to REMOVE slow?
It's not like slow is interesting. It's just a passive on it's attack. Wouldn't hurt the units "interestingness" (lol is that even a word) if it was removed imo.
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On April 05 2010 09:34 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 08:53 LunarC wrote:On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote:
Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good:
-Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable
-Marauders have good range
-Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later)
-Marauders do bonus damage to armored units
-Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal
-Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units)
-Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders:
-Cannot attack air
-.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go:
-Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs)
-Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one)
-Banshees, BattleCruisers
-Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders
-Pheonixes with good micro
-Mutalisks
-Broodlords
-Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders.
The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff. You want the Marauder to be less boring and you want to REMOVE slow? It's not like slow is interesting. It's just a passive on it's attack. Wouldn't hurt the units "interestingness" (lol is that even a word) if it was removed imo.
If it really is a high hp/high dmg with slow attack unit...it should shoot slower. for it to stim and shoot so fast with such an attack is not making it distinct. Seige tank's powerful but slow attacks make it distinct. If marauders attacks were slower (and if you want slightly increase its attack) it will make it more as the support/unit to slow units down with a powerful concussive attack and let the high dps units to finish off the slow unit. It alone should not do the job. Marauder attacking an enemy unit trying to retreat should slow it and then have a higher cool down so the unit can escape before marauder can shoot again to finish it off. that does not defeat the purpose of slow because it makes it so that marauder has a single purpose - to slow so that OTHER units can take out the retreating unit.
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On April 05 2010 09:02 Half wrote:
Another fix Is adding an upgrade to make the slow a small AoE (.5), a buff, then adding a "kickback", after attacking, theirs a brief period where the maraunder plays a "kickback" animation and is unable to move.
This would allow it to fulfill a more heavily supportive role within the MM army, slowing down melee targets for marines to pick off, as well as adding much needed dps against armor and structures, but is unreliable by itself.
Removing stim is something else I kinda like too, but would probably make things worse if it was done without other changes.
I really think we should be thinking more along these lines.
Make the slow an activatable small AOE ability that roots the marauder in place for a few seconds after cast.
This way marauder would still be exactly as good, expect for the fact that you'll lose a few marauders as you kite, which will even out casualties on both sides. This even requires more micro than the current marauder.
This will fix the OPness of the marauder, since blizzard just got to balance the numbers, so that the terran have to sacrifice enough marauders to keep the enemy army slowed. This could for example be the range of the AOE.
People complained about all other solutions for fixing the OP marauder leading to less micro requirements, but this fix actually requires more.
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As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10
• Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas
• Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds
• Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10
• Armor increased by 1
• Build time reduced to 45 seconds
• Gas cost reduced to 100
• Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast
• Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds
• Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80
• Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2
• HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1
• Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second
• Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off
• SCV HP increased to 50
• Bunkers base load increased to 5
• Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400
• Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2
• EMP Radius now 1.5
• Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100
• Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas
• Reaper scrapped
• Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas
• New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available.
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On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote:
As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10
• Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas
• Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds
• Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10
• Armor increased by 1
• Build time reduced to 45 seconds
• Gas cost reduced to 100
• Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast
• Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds
• Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80
• Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2
• HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1
• Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second
• Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off
• SCV HP increased to 50
• Bunkers base load increased to 5
• Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400
• Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2
• EMP Radius now 1.5
• Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100
• Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas
• Reaper scrapped
• Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas
• New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available.
yaaa so most of these changes change the face of the game in tvt tvp and tvz ... most of them for the worse. then alot of them are just gimmicks thats still would not be used.
also fax is 100 gas
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On April 05 2010 10:11 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote:
As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10
• Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas
• Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds
• Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10
• Armor increased by 1
• Build time reduced to 45 seconds
• Gas cost reduced to 100
• Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast
• Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds
• Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80
• Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2
• HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1
• Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second
• Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off
• SCV HP increased to 50
• Bunkers base load increased to 5
• Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400
• Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2
• EMP Radius now 1.5
• Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100
• Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas
• Reaper scrapped
• Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas
• New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available. yaaa so most of these changes change the face of the game in tvt tvp and tvz ... most of them for the worse. then alot of them are just gimmicks thats still would not be used. also fax is 100 gas
Would you like to explain your reasoning? What does 'for the worse' mean? Also, yes you are right, Factory is 100 Gas right now. Besides, what the fuck is a patch for if it isn't to 'change the face of the game'? Aren't we trying to make Mech more viable vZ and vP? Why even have Mech if it is far inferior to bio vZ and vP?
What are the gimmicks? Changing around statistics? Having a similar high-ground positional advantage as in SC I?
Explain your reasoning.
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On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10
• Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas
• Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds
• Base Armor 0
This doesnt change much tbh... sure its nerfed a bit, but the actual thing thats seen as OP isnt even slightly involved with this. Also, armored units with 0 armor?
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10
• Armor increased by 1
• Build time reduced to 45 seconds
• Gas cost reduced to 100
• Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast
• Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds
• Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
This is a bit too much of a buff. Keep armor/HP, keep siege/unsiege same, reduce supply to 2, price 125/100 is better imo.
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Looks good.
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80
• Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Both no, mule should stay as it is. And hellion shouldnt become cheaper. If people want vultures so badly play sc1.
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1
• Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second
• Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Theyre really good as they are now. I don't really see why they need buffs. The flying to ground sounds reasonable, as long as ground to air isn't also 1 sec.
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off. - Yes
• SCV HP increased to 50. - Yes
• Bunkers base load increased to 5. - No
• Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400. - No
• Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2. - No
• EMP Radius now 1.5. - No
• Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100. - No, this would be a too much of a huge nerf.
• Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas. - No
• Reaper scrapped. - No, reapers simply need a decent buff from +dmg to make them viable
• Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas. - Isnt it already 100?
• New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%. - No, just no. Make it similar to SC1 and its fine.
I stick to the usual supposed nerf for marauder, remove stim. Stim is really the only thing that makes them too extreme.
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Personally, scrapping stim from marauders would almost make them not worthwhile mid-late game, leaving t almost helpless with ground vs ground. They are the roach of the t army... the backbone to tank in fights and still put out dps. If you get rid you stim for something that is 100/25 is just too extreme imo.
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To be honest I don't think the high ground miss chance is something I would like to see. While I believe it would add tactical strategy in terms of army positioning. I honestly feel it would encourage 1base cube/macro play due to ledge advantage. While this is not a huge issue, it is rather annoying having to play long games because people turtle and macro up with towers, a hill advantage would only add to this imo.
As for marauder stims, it's hard to say. Having only marines with stims seems... odd. There would have to be a substitute stim implemented or something else to compensate, I think just stims for marines would be broing, and would even maybe make it not as viable to get. I think we'd have to see how it plays out but, flat out just shredding off stims is something I would not like to see.
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On April 05 2010 10:34 Vlare wrote:
To be honest I don't think the high ground miss chance is something I would like to see. While I believe it would add tactical strategy in terms of army positioning. I honestly feel it would encourage 1base cube/macro play due to ledge advantage. While this is not a huge issue, it is rather annoying having to play long games because people turtle and macro up with towers, a hill advantage would only add to this imo.
1base + "macro play" = does not compute
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On April 05 2010 10:27 Koffiegast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10
• Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas
• Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds
• Base Armor 0
This doesnt change much tbh... sure its nerfed a bit, but the actual thing thats seen as OP isnt even slightly involved with this. Also, armored units with 0 armor? Show nested quote +
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10
• Armor increased by 1
• Build time reduced to 45 seconds
• Gas cost reduced to 100
• Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast
• Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds
• Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
This is a bit too much of a buff. Keep armor/HP, keep siege/unsiege same, reduce supply to 2, price 125/100 is better imo. Show nested quote +
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Looks good. Show nested quote +
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80
• Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Both no, mule should stay as it is. And hellion shouldnt become cheaper. If people want vultures so badly play sc1. Show nested quote +
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1
• Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second
• Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Theyre really good as they are now. I don't really see why they need buffs. The flying to ground sounds reasonable, as long as ground to air isn't also 1 sec. Show nested quote +
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off. - Yes
• SCV HP increased to 50. - Yes
• Bunkers base load increased to 5. - No
• Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400. - No
• Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2. - No
• EMP Radius now 1.5. - No
• Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100. - No, this would be a too much of a huge nerf.
• Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas. - No
• Reaper scrapped. - No, reapers simply need a decent buff from +dmg to make them viable
• Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas. - Isnt it already 100?
• New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%. - No, just no. Make it similar to SC1 and its fine.
I stick to the usual supposed nerf for marauder, remove stim. Stim is really the only thing that makes them too extreme.
Reasonable objections.
Marauders are too easily amassed right now, and this fixes that, it also tremendously helps Zealots and Zerglings, its natural counter. As for Base Armor being 0, so are Vikings and they are armored.
The buffs to the Siege Tank are badly needed. They are so bad right now because of the new SC II mechanics and units. Roaches completely obliterate Tanks, and so do Immortals & Collo w/ support. Not to mention Zealots with charge take out Tanks much better than Speedlots did in SC I. Perhaps it is too much of a buff, if it is, it can be adjusted.
Mule is far too good right now. I play a huge macro oriented game, and many times I find myself even out-macroing great Zerg players. Try 14CC builds, it completely dominates (on most maps). Also, I would like to encourage a little more decision making with the OC energy. Reducing energy prices for both supply mechanic and mule, and giving a somewhat more even decision, along with keeping Scan @ 50 more available is great. This gives a more 3-way tug action between them and opens up a ton of different macro options.
Hellion is just far too weak for 100 minerals. They don't even counter what they are supposed to when Speedlings come out, especially when they are on creep. Making them a bit more cost effective, also allows a little better 'shield' for Tanks. I don't want the Vulture back, hence not adding spider mines. I would also like them to have great micro opportunity something they lack right now due to their animation being ridiculous long and clunky.
My suggestion for Bunkers are because they are horribly weak right now. Immortals, Banelings, and the rest tear right through them. Allowing a little longer survivability, and HP would go a long way. I'm even up for adding another armor, in return to taking away the Salvage ability. Seems weird the supposed best defensive race has the worse static base defense (Bunker/Turret compared to Z/P Static defense).
Vikings right now are only good insofar as Corruptors are good vs Capital ships. They take far too long to transition from Ground/Air and vice versa. I would like Vikings to see a more ground oriented role also.
As for reapers....Terran all ready has too many overlapping roles for Harassment. Hellion & Viking & Medi's are more than enough. Reaper is a redundant unit that needs to go, besides, there should never be a unit built around solely harassing. Way too one-dimensional.
As for Ghosts. I feel like are bit too powerful. Decreasing their radius in conjunction with HT, and reducing cost by making them Tier 2 is I think a good suggestion. If the HP nerf is too much then fix the cloak price.
As for High Ground Mechanic. I'm fine with either the 50% miss chance, or 30% damage dealt reduction.
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People are saying marauders are too all-purpose and should not be such a strong core army unit, but without overhauling terran's army composition is this really a realistic goal? What other ground unit is going to populate the terran army? Marines are too low hp to me massed alone as they are destroyed by storm, colossus, tanks, roaches, fungal growth. Hellions and reapers are both mostly designed for harassment and tanks and ghosts are support units. Thors are just far too expensive and viking's ground form is just simply not cost effective at all, and shouldn't be, because it would make the unit too flexible. The marauder is placed in a spot where it is clearly meant to fill out a lot of the core of the terran army, similar to how toss has lots/sentries which pretty well always remain useful and take hits for other more expensive, less massible units.
We also need to consider having a strong core is very important to terran compared to other races, because they have to commit to their unit production more than other races. While techlabs and reactors can be lifted into, they still force the terran to commit to certain unit productions a lot more than having 1 hatchery produce every kind of unit, or the warpgate being able to produce 5 different units with only tech buildings needed.
It is hard to remove the marauder from its core position int he army short of adding a brand new unit or mechanic to the game that will fill the roll of tanking up damage. Rather than removing the marauder from the roll of being a core unit, I think we should really be looking at is: is the maruder balanced?
One of the major concern most people seem to have is Marauders in TvP. First, 'Marauders beat all gateway units toss has' yes, 1:1 the marauder does wreck all these units however a mix of zealot, stalker, sentry can do quite decently vs marauders when microed properly, forcefield + guardian shield really allows lots to get in and once they do, they do very well vs marauders, especially with the support of stalkers and immortals. The stalkers do have a very strong ability to kite with stim, but blink and guardian shield can be used to block marauders line of retreat and zealot charge helps them get in on marauders. Also, later storm and or colossus can be used vs marauders in mass to deal significant damage. Now, we say toss shouldn't need so much diversity to counter 1 unit, but lets think, is this really a legitimate statement? Is having to have a diverse army really an imbalance? I wouldn't say so, gates can produce zealots, stalkers & sentries and with warpgates it is very easy to modify these #s and rebuild whatever units you are low on. Also, does this forced diveristy in units leave toss prone to switch techs? No, not really, with variations in numbers of lots/stalker/sentries this core is effective vs marines, hellions and banshees.
Also, lots of people stating terran mech is weak. Yes, hellions do not fill the role vultures do, interestingly enough marauders do fill this gap decently. In TvT tanks are very effective, and even TvZ I feel tanks definitely have their place, but are not very massable because of zergs mobility. The biggest problem is not that tanks are too weak, but they are completely unviable vs protoss because of immortals. Immortals are so ridiculously strong vs tanks, hardened shields + 3 shot tanks + is far more mobile. Immortals also can be produced very quickly. Immortals even destroy thors, and.. well.. hellions are a bit of a joke vs them. The problem is not that mech is weak, but that immortals make it not viable TvP.
All this being said, I'm not saying marauders shouldn't be looked at. The biggest thing to me, is that they are a bit too effective vs buildings. The only possible change I could see to stim is having it cost more health to use, removing stim from this unit would make it really fall off later in the game. Changes like production times can't really be put in place, because they already require a rax + tech lab (200 minerals 25 gas) and take 30 seconds to build. If we compare this to say, warpgates which cost 150 and build units in 10 seconds, or hatcheries/queens which can produce a ton of units for their cost, nerfing the build time would put terran in a very hard spot, unable to match other race's rate of production without investing tons of money into unit producing buildings. Another thing to consider is that there are expansions already planned, and more units will most likely be added. In these expansions a new unit could possibly help relieve some of terran's dependency on the marauder. I would be very surprised if the expansion units were not being factored in to the picture in blizzard's minds regarding diversity and options.
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About the marauder being 'boring', it is a core unit, of course its a bit boring. Marines, zealots, stalkers, lings, roaches, hydras are all low tech, core units, that are fairly straightforward and could all be called a bit 'boring'. I really fail to see what makes the marauder so much less interesting compared to other units. If we look at the dragoon in SC1 which was comparably versatile to the marauder, quite good vs pretty well everything and can also attack air, I don't really see what makes a dragoon so incredibly interesting compared to a marauder. It infact has fewer facets as all it does is attack and move, with crappy pathing no less. People's complaints about how 'boring' the unit is really should be thought out and considered in more detail imo. Simply disliking the aesthetic of the unit is not really a good enough reason to change a unit.
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I would like to see following changes:
roaches -10% slower movement
marauders armor type become bio and armored
Immortal armor reduced from 1 to 0
Tried to make units more unique.
I think those changes would improve almost every matchups.
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just got a beta key and after an hour of gaming and 9 games, I realized how broken terran is right now. I played 4 PvT and all terrans went mass marauder... It seems like they really have no other option...
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On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote:
As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10
• Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas
• Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds
• Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10
• Armor increased by 1
• Build time reduced to 45 seconds
• Gas cost reduced to 100
• Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast
• Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds
• Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80
• Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2
• HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1
• Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second
• Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off
• SCV HP increased to 50
• Bunkers base load increased to 5
• Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400
• Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2
• EMP Radius now 1.5
• Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100
• Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas
• Reaper scrapped
• Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas
• New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available.
Does not change the Fact Marauders are OP due to them being good VS there counter Zealots and Zerglings
Think 25 is better then 20 before it was way to many rines if they unnerf the reactor and nerf the maraudar should work out good
Hard to buff the tank when it is allready very stronge support unit. problem with mech is not the tank or the hellion its the thor being so shitty as a front line unit to be the meat to back them up. WTB cobra back.
Gimick that would be used vs colo only. But thor is a shiity unit anyways and should just be removed go go cobra. Or if it stays better to just increase its normal range not its worthless spell.
Ya should be change back to what it was or lower. 2 nerfs to marins was way to much and discourages unit mix. When also nerfing medvac,viks and hellion timing hars psuh w/e.
would not make a differnce still would not be used and any bust would still get thro and be little more then a gimick. not going to use it early when you can allready hold everything with a few scv's and you would have to give up a mule.
allready cheap and good for most part and i don't get the fix Animation thing its allready easy to macro /shrug no idea what it means.
Why change mule when it works good as it is ?
Nerf to banshess dmg ummm y ? Not OP and very easy to counter. HP change in last patch i would revert but see why they did it now that fix defence AA rape them quick.
and for the misc you want to make it so terran can turtle more easy .... ya not needed. You want to scrap reapers y ? god harsment unit not op easy to counter good for late game scouting and messing with expansions etc. Then you want to nerf the ghost to hell y. When marauder is fixed we will need it. allready in late game its a tiny bit in favor of the toss.
Like i said most this stuff just cause other problems or just pointless. You didn't even fix the problem with marauder what this thread is all about.
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On April 05 2010 10:27 Koffiegast wrote:
I stick to the usual supposed nerf for marauder, remove stim. Stim is really the only thing that makes them too extreme.
Again does not fix the problem they still have no counter and would kill end game fights for terran.
Just need to make the units that are made to counter them counter them make them immune to there slow win. easy simple.
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On April 05 2010 12:26 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 09:56 Rothbardian wrote:
As I said before, if you nerf Marauders, you better buff Tanks, or nerf Roaches and Immortals. Along with that, I would like the Thor's 250MM cannons increased to range 7, so as enough to counter Immortals (somewhat), and allow for Collo micro to take them down.
My hypothetical patch for Terran:
Marauder -
• HP reduced by 10
• Price increased to 30 Gas from 25 Gas
• Tech Lab build time increased to 30 seconds
• Base Armor 0
Marine -
• Changed build time from 25 seconds to 20 seconds
Crucio Siege Tank -
• HP increased by 10
• Armor increased by 1
• Build time reduced to 45 seconds
• Gas cost reduced to 100
• Unsiege Damage changed from 15+10 Armored, Attack: Normal, to 15, Attack: Fast
• Siege and Unsiege animations changed from 4 seconds to 3 seconds
• Supply cost changed from 3 to 2
Thor -
• 250 MM Cannon ability range increased to 7
Reactor -
• Time to build decreased to 40 seconds
Supply Drop -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy +8 Supply to 30 Energy, +6 Supply, +1 Armor, +50 HP
Hellion -
• Mineral price reduced to 80
• Fixed Animation so as to allow 'Vulture' Micro
Mule -
• Mechanic changed from 50 Energy 90 Seconds, to 25 Energy, 30 Seconds
Banshee -
• Damage changed from 12x2 to 10x2
• HP reduced from 140 to 125
Viking -
• Base Armor changed from 0 to 1
• Flying to Ground Animation changed from 3 seconds to 1 second
• Mineral Price changed from 150 to 125
Misc -
• Engineering Bay can now lift off
• SCV HP increased to 50
• Bunkers base load increased to 5
• Bunkers HP increased to 450 from 400
• Ghost Academy moved to Tier 2
• EMP Radius now 1.5
• Ghost HP reduced to 65 from 100
• Ghost price reduced from 150 Mineral 150 Gas to 125 Mineral 100 Gas
• Reaper scrapped
• Factory price changed from 150 Gas to 100 Gas
• New Highground Mechanic: Units on low ground now have sight of high ground units. High Ground advantage: Units on low ground damage reduced by 30%.
That sums up about the gist of balance changes needed to Terran to make both bio and mech available. Does not change the Fact Marauders are OP due to them being good VS there counter Zealots and Zerglings Think 25 is better then 20 before it was way to many rines if they unnerf the reactor and nerf the maraudar should work out good Hard to buff the tank when it is allready very stronge support unit. problem with mech is not the tank or the hellion its the thor being so shitty as a front line unit to be the meat to back them up. WTB cobra back. Gimick that would be used vs colo only. But thor is a shiity unit anyways and should just be removed go go cobra. Or if it stays better to just increase its normal range not its worthless spell. Ya should be change back to what it was or lower. 2 nerfs to marins was way to much and discourages unit mix. When also nerfing medvac,viks and hellion timing hars psuh w/e. would not make a differnce still would not be used and any bust would still get thro and be little more then a gimick. not going to use it early when you can allready hold everything with a few scv's and you would have to give up a mule. allready cheap and good for most part and i don't get the fix Animation thing its allready easy to macro /shrug no idea what it means. Why change mule when it works good as it is ? Nerf to banshess dmg ummm y ? Not OP and very easy to counter. HP change in last patch i would revert but see why they did it now that fix defence AA rape them quick. and for the misc you want to make it so terran can turtle more easy .... ya not needed. You want to scrap reapers y ? god harsment unit not op easy to counter good for late game scouting and messing with expansions etc. Then you want to nerf the ghost to hell y. When marauder is fixed we will need it. allready in late game its a tiny bit in favor of the toss. Like i said most this stuff just cause other problems or just pointless. You didn't even fix the problem with marauder what this thread is all about.
Could you please be more lucid in your next post. Tanks, are not supposed to be a support unit, they are supposed to be the main Mech unit. Hellions are supposed to be the 'meat' unit to tanks, like the Vulture was in SC I. As for the Thor ability, it rocks Immortals.
MULE's are too strong right now. Try a Macro-oriented play, and see the ridiculousness that is MULE. I suspect once more Terrans actually play macro-oriented that MULE OP will become much more common. Supply Drop Mechanic is nigh worthless right now, because of the MULE.
If you would read my post you can see why I want to scrap reapers. It's a redundant un-needed unit. One-dimensional units should not exist.
Also nerfing Marauder HP and Armor, and increasing price + time to get is a huge help to Protoss, and with Mech buff, would be a more viable route against Roach (I would assume they will nerf the Roach in accordance). You want to know the best counter to Marauders? Mass Roaches.
3/3 Roach with Hive upgrade is ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Play Sauron Zerg with Roach its unbelievable....
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On April 05 2010 12:31 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 10:27 Koffiegast wrote:
I stick to the usual supposed nerf for marauder, remove stim. Stim is really the only thing that makes them too extreme. Again does not fix the problem they still have no counter and would kill end game fights for terran. Just need to make the units that are made to counter them counter them make them immune to there slow win. easy simple.
The unit is overpowered, let just make a ridiculous counter is how we got into this predicament in the first place.
How would it kill end game fights as terran? Removing stim imo would be a great fix. Marauders need stim to remain competitive in DPS. Their role as slowing and help marines versus armored is great. By reducing their damage, marines would have to be made to support them. This both gives the build a "skillcounter" through AoE damage and balances out marauders so they're not as ridiculous. A slight hp nerf would be cool too, the idea of a golaith HP t1 terran infantry unit is kind of dumb.
3/3 Roach with Hive upgrade is ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Play Sauron Zerg with Roach its unbelievable....
Yeah, but thats ridiculously lategame. And it doesn't work nearly as well anymore, they nerfed the HP regen thing.
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On April 05 2010 12:39 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 12:31 xnub wrote:On April 05 2010 10:27 Koffiegast wrote:
I stick to the usual supposed nerf for marauder, remove stim. Stim is really the only thing that makes them too extreme. Again does not fix the problem they still have no counter and would kill end game fights for terran. Just need to make the units that are made to counter them counter them make them immune to there slow win. easy simple. The unit is overpowered, let just make a ridiculous counter is how we got into this predicament in the first place. How would it kill end game fights as terran? Removing stim imo would be a great fix. Marauders need stim to remain competitive in DPS. Their role as slowing and help marines versus armored is great. By reducing their damage, marines would have to be made to support them. This both gives the build a "skillcounter" through AoE damage and balances out marauders so they're not as ridiculous. A slight hp nerf would be cool too, the idea of a golaith HP t1 terran infantry unit is kind of dumb. Show nested quote +
3/3 Roach with Hive upgrade is ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous. Play Sauron Zerg with Roach its unbelievable....
Yeah, but thats ridiculously lategame. And it doesn't work nearly as well anymore, they nerfed the HP regen thing.
It's not that late-game. 20 minutes isn't that 'late'. Yeah, they nerfed the Hive regen, but it's still really good, besides even discounting the regen, 3/3 Roach is unbelievable by itself, especially with speed upgrade + creep. 5 Armor, 22 damage, and 145HP for a unit that is 1 supply and only cost 75/25...with 2-3 Queens and 4 Hatch....
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EPT
