| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
If they make the cost significantly more, and take away how high of damage they do, it'll work it balanced. Right now the only reason terrans do anything other than Marauder is to stop air. Its gotten to that point. The worst part is, If you try to tech as protoss or zerg, into some air unit or some high up spellcaster (HT/infestors), then any smart terran will just kill you before you even get there because they are so cheap they can be pumped from 3rax almost instantly. | ||
|
Jugan
United States1566 Posts
On April 04 2010 19:19 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: I agree with this. If maruaders were nerfed, TvP/TvZ would become hopeless. I think it's true that maruaders are too good compared to other terran units. I also agree that maruaders are ridiculously strong against any heavy ground unit, and are a little too useful in the first few minutes of the game against zealots. However, (in tvp) after an immortal is out marauders are essentially countered. The real problem for me is that nothing seems viable in TvP besides mass bio, and then you end up in stupid ghost vs temp fights. It would make sense to me to do something like making slow effect an upgrade, but buffing mech. This would make maruaders just as useful in the long run, but make them not overpowered in the early game, and simultaneously allow for more terran army diversity in the form of more mech usage. I also agree. I feel like TvP and TvZ is already hopeless, at least for lower level players that don't have the APM/skill to deal with a fast baneling bust or a fast immortal push. When I play TvP, I honestly wish I really could mech instead of getting massive amounts of marauders. But that's just NOT realistic. 1 Immortal > 5 siege tanks, EZPZ. | ||
|
Half
United States2554 Posts
On April 05 2010 12:46 Rothbardian wrote: It's not that late-game. 20 minutes isn't that 'late'. Yeah, they nerfed the Hive regen, but it's still really good. Well the fact that upgraded, roaches beat a unit which does as much DPS to it as a carrier for 100/25 kinda supports my point. | ||
|
ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 05 2010 11:33 Teejing wrote: I would like to see following changes: marauders armor type become bio and armored I think those changes would improve almost every matchups. The Marauder is already biological and armored... EDIT: I think that the Marauder is overshadowing the Marine in terms of DPS. Once that a Marauder is stimmed, it just dishes out a lot of damage when it should just be created to complement your Marines with the slow support. In my opinion, decreasing its overall DPS will cure the problem. This is through: a) Decreasing attack speed. b) Decreasing attack damage. | ||
|
jackofclubs81
United States196 Posts
the game should be about skill and intelligence, not the consistent massing of one unitand/or the existance of hard counters the game should have a LOT mor soft counters and no hard counters(with a few exceptions like dts and other desperation/cheese units) | ||
|
xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 05 2010 12:51 lolaloc wrote: The Marauder is already biological and armored... EDIT: I think that the Marauder is overshadowing the Marine in terms of DPS. Once that a Marauder is stimmed, it just dishes out a lot of damage when it should just be created to complement your Marines with the slow support. In my opinion, decreasing its overall DPS will cure the problem. This is through: a) Decreasing attack speed. b) Decreasing attack damage. Rine do more dps on None armored targets like it should then marauders .... When marauder stim and rine stim still the same thing rine does more dps. Decreasing the attack speed and dmg would do nothing to fix the problem where Marauders are mass cause they can kite the units that counter them. Changing these things would do nothing to fix that. | ||
|
Half
United States2554 Posts
SC2 is not about hardcounters any more then SC1 was. The metagame is still volatile, a formulaic build is still being developed, so your going to see a lot of fights ending because of "hardcounters". Was MM hardcountered by storms and reavers in SC1? You betcha. Thats an entire tech option/alternative, hardcountered by 1/2 units. Their isn't even a definable difference between a hardcounter and a normal counter. Only counter and softcounter. No hardcounters. Counters encourage things. The hardcounter to mass light units is aoe, so it encourages AoE. Is this a good thing? Many would say yes, yes is agreeable. That is all they do. Bios hardcounter encourages mech. etc etc. They shape the metagame, and through feedback and patching, the game itself. What do roaches encourage? A lot of things, outlined in my post, and most of them aren't good by any stretch of the imagination. | ||
|
xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 05 2010 12:39 Half wrote: The unit is overpowered, let just make a ridiculous counter is how we got into this predicament in the first place. How would it kill end game fights as terran? Removing stim imo would be a great fix. Marauders need stim to remain competitive in DPS. Their role as slowing and help marines versus armored is great. By reducing their damage, marines would have to be made to support them. This both gives the build a "skillcounter" through AoE damage and balances out marauders so they're not as ridiculous. A slight hp nerf would be cool too, the idea of a golaith HP t1 terran infantry unit is kind of dumb. Yeah, but thats ridiculously lategame. And it doesn't work nearly as well anymore, they nerfed the HP regen thing. It would kill its dps way to much and it would cause stimed packs of MM to split up cause pathing issuse. As it is right now only reason you don't see the mixing of Marines and marauders right is cause the marauders have no counter early game the ones that are made by blizzard to counter them zerglings and zealots are kited due to the slow. So why make marines when there is no counter to the marauders ? As it stances right now rines do more dmg VS light targets stimed and unstimed then marauders. As soon as you make the Zealots and zerglings a threat to them no more kiting and you will need the rines in background to deal the dmg to kill off the threat. Also this would not even fix the problem you would still get terran 3 raxing and spaming marauder so what if they do not have stim. Still no counter coming early game any zealot made is a waste and stalkers are weak to marauders. Way to not even solve the problem lol | ||
|
ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On April 05 2010 13:12 xnub wrote: Marauders are mass cause they can kite the units that counter them. Changing these things would do nothing to fix that. I see. So that's why people have been throwing around "Remove stim" in this thread. Decreasing the attack range suddenly popped into my head since it would reduce their capability to kite units effectively. | ||
|
Chen
United States6344 Posts
On April 05 2010 12:38 Rothbardian wrote: Could you please be more lucid in your next post. Tanks, are not supposed to be a support unit, they are supposed to be the main Mech unit. Hellions are supposed to be the 'meat' unit to tanks, like the Vulture was in SC I. As for the Thor ability, it rocks Immortals. The blizz team said they made tanks to be more of a support unit. thats why it kinda fits that role in sc2 more than the main muscle in the terran army. who are you to say what it should or should not be? | ||
|
xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 05 2010 13:26 lolaloc wrote: I see. So that's why people have been throwing around "Remove stim" in this thread. Decreasing the attack range suddenly popped into my head since it would reduce their capability to kite units effectively. can kite a zealot from 2 feet away doesn't matter what range you make it. Really its very easy fix i don't know why people can't see it. Make them immune to slow terrans will be force to get a mix of marines to deal with the zealots/lingz early game problem solved. No more marauder spam and you get units that counter them early game and late game. | ||
|
xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 05 2010 12:38 Rothbardian wrote: Could you please be more lucid in your next post. Tanks, are not supposed to be a support unit, they are supposed to be the main Mech unit. Hellions are supposed to be the 'meat' unit to tanks, like the Vulture was in SC I. As for the Thor ability, it rocks Immortals. Also nerfing Marauder HP and Armor, and increasing price + time to get is a huge help to Protoss, and with Mech buff, would be a more viable route against Roach (I would assume they will nerf the Roach in accordance). You want to know the best counter to Marauders? Mass Roaches. Thing is Vulture with micro were good vs everything and could be the meat. hellions can't be the meat cause they suck vs roachs or stalkers even with micro. they can just ignore them and go right for tanks cause they do no dmg . Anything light and your fine. Other then that what meat ? Also the Vulture was the main mech unit in SC. You could say it turns around late game and the tank becomes the main part of mech. because you can get massive amounts of tanks to blow shit up before it gets close just like it is now in SC2. Then if any air comes in you have many Goliaths to scare them off a fast long range AA unit that can be used at the front. Tanks are 100 % a support unit untill you get so many they rock shit on the ground before they even get close. tanks can't stand alone. Support Mass roachs counter marauders yaaaa no other way around. Nerfing the hp and armor and w/e else still does not fix the problem. Marauders kiteing the units that are made to counter them early game because of the slow. Then only thing left early game being the stalker, what the marauder is made to counter is the problem. | ||
|
Rothbardian
United States497 Posts
On April 05 2010 13:28 Chen wrote: The blizz team said they made tanks to be more of a support unit. thats why it kinda fits that role in sc2 more than the main muscle in the terran army. who are you to say what it should or should not be? For a unit that kills off your units more than the enemies via splash, it shouldn't be a support unit, because it doesn't fit that role. You don't see the Colossus splashing its own units, or Ultra's do you? Tank/Bio vs melee is bad, and you are better off just going straight bio. Besides, Tanks just make your army immobile, and in SC II that is very bad. If you are going to be Immobile you better be packing a punch, and tanks as support do not fill that, especially against Protoss, and even moreso against Zerg. I wonder why we hardly see tanks.... :: rollseyes :: | ||
|
Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 04 2010 19:07 lew wrote: Make terran mech more usefull and I agree with a marauders nerf. If you give terran now a marrauder nerf without buffing the mech, then there is not much left for terrans, think about that. The reason why Mech units are used less than they should is that Marauders are too good to pass up on. For 100/25 you get a small and mobile unit which has only 25 hp less than a tank AND which has a slowing effect on enemy units AND which does bonus damage to armored (BUILDINGS). Thus it is very easy to get a super tough "dense ball of damage" to wreck an enemies base with. Ultralisks are fast at demolishing buildings too, but they are Tier 3.
Personally I would simply increase the build time for Marauders (currently only 5 seconds slower than the Marine after their build time got increased) and lower their hp by 25. That way they would still have a lot more hp compared to Marines, but you couldnt mass them that easily. Another way of nerfing Marauders is to make them move slow themselves (carrying a heavy rocket launcher should never leave you that mobile) thus making it easier to avoid them and it would be necessary to have Marines as well to catch up with those fleeing enemies the Marauder slowed. A rather drastic change would be removing Stimpack from Marauders, but Stimpack Marauders are really what makes them go "over the top" IMO. Another reason for getting Marauders exclusively is the lack of attacking air units for at least a Protoss enemy. The Phoenix is nifty, but it is underused due to the necessary micro to deal any damage to ground units. Its damage is pretty low as well, because you need masses to do anything reasonably well. Lifting up Marauders or Roaches with a Phoenix and killing them that way would be a viable option if those two ground unit werent armored units and the Phoenix did 5+5 vs light damage. Changing that to a flat 10 damage would make it much more viable. | ||
|
xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 05 2010 13:54 Rothbardian wrote: For a unit that kills off your units more than the enemies via splash, it shouldn't be a support unit, because it doesn't fit that role. You don't see the Colossus splashing its own units, or Ultra's do you? Tank/Bio vs melee is bad, and you are better off just going straight bio. Besides, Tanks just make your army immobile, and in SC II that is very bad. If you are going to be Immobile you better be packing a punch, and tanks as support do not fill that, especially against Protoss, and even moreso against Zerg. I wonder why we hardly see tanks.... :: rollseyes :: /shrug its there weakness just like colo get raped by shit that hits air only or air. All support has there weakness in some way. Also you still see many people use tanks and bio you just need micro the tank to shoot back and in big battles they are 10000x worth it. Also rine + tanks is a good zerg strat. Not to mention they rape hydras when hydras are super stronge vs bio with a roachs meat shield. | ||
|
xnub
Canada610 Posts
On April 05 2010 14:13 Rabiator wrote: The reason why Mech units are used less than they should is that Marauders are too good to pass up on. For 100/25 you get a small and mobile unit which has only 25 hp less than a tank AND which has a slowing effect on enemy units AND which does bonus damage to armored (BUILDINGS). Thus it is very easy to get a super tough "dense ball of damage" to wreck an enemies base with. Ultralisks are fast at demolishing buildings too, but they are Tier 3.
Personally I would simply increase the build time for Marauders (currently only 5 seconds slower than the Marine after their build time got increased) and lower their hp by 25. That way they would still have a lot more hp compared to Marines, but you couldnt mass them that easily. Another way of nerfing Marauders is to make them move slow themselves (carrying a heavy rocket launcher should never leave you that mobile) thus making it easier to avoid them and it would be necessary to have Marines as well to catch up with those fleeing enemies the Marauder slowed. Another reason for getting Marauders exclusively is the lack of attacking air units for at least a Protoss enemy. The Phoenix is nifty, but it is underused due to the necessary micro to deal any damage to ground units. Its damage is pretty low as well, because you need masses to do anything reasonably well. Lifting up Marauders or Roaches with a Phoenix and killing them that way would be a viable option if those two ground unit werent armored units and the Phoenix did 5+5 vs light damage. Changing that to a flat 10 damage would make it much more viable. Again this would not fix the problem with marauders. You people seem not to read or understand the problem with them. Also i don't know but i see tanks used ALOT they are the only part of mech that is in the right spot right now. TvT thats like all you build is tanks cause they rape MM to bits. TvZ crazy good for killing those hydras that rape your MM. Only toss you can't go mech cause immortals rape anything mech. | ||
|
Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 05 2010 14:23 xnub wrote: Only toss you can't go mech cause immortals rape anything mech. Ummm ... Ghost? On April 05 2010 14:23 xnub wrote: Also i don't know but i see tanks used ALOT they are the only part of mech that is in the right spot right now. TvT thats like all you build is tanks cause they rape MM to bits. Funny how I hardly ever see that in TvT in the replays I watch. Most is Marauders and sometimes only Marauders. | ||
|
Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 05 2010 13:54 Rothbardian wrote: Besides, Tanks just make your army immobile, and in SC II that is very bad. If you are going to be Immobile you better be packing a punch, and tanks as support do not fill that, especially against Protoss, and even moreso against Zerg. IMO the "SC2 requires mobility" comes more from the expectations of the players (who like charging in and busting stuff too much it seems) than from failures of the game. People simply havent gotten into the habit of playing a long containment game. | ||
|
WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
Everyone should check out the othe thread about these three units, it's got a lot more discussion and less racial bickering. | ||
|
semantics
10040 Posts
stim need to be removed like the op suggested or the slow time needs to be shorted or the slow needs to be reworked to not affect some units preferably all units that aren't armored imo making marauders more of counter armor like the tank not really an all purpose unit. or making the slow a research at teir 2 or increase the cost of marauders, which i find the most interesting a little more gas or something and it could open up terrans to using tanks a bit more as the cost benefit would be smaller using mass marauders. or just get rid of the slow and really rework murderers that's all i can think of so far. | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Calm Stormgate 3773Rain  2055Bisu 1302Dewaltoss 247Bonyth 91HiyA  36Rock 23Sexy 13Movie 9ajuk12(nOOB) 5Dota 2 Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Heroes of the Storm Other Games Grubby3976 FrodaN1927 Beastyqt1327 ceh9636 B2W.Neo441 summit1g328 ToD192 ArmadaUGS184 mouzStarbuck129 Trikslyr69 ROOTCatZ66 QueenE65 |
|
PiGosaur Monday
PiG Sty Festival
Serral vs MaNa
ByuN vs Classic
Afreeca Starleague
Jaedong vs Light
Replay Cast
PiG Sty Festival
herO vs Creator
Cure vs ShoWTimE
OSC
Replay Cast
SpeCial vs Cham
The PondCast
PiG Sty Festival
Reynor vs Bunny
Dark vs Astrea
Replay Cast
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
