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On April 05 2010 07:05 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 06:58 lew wrote:
People just don't understand that the terran mech is too weak vs protoss. There is 1 problem: if they buff the terran mech, then zerg will be in trouble (because tanks are atm decent against zerg).
I am a platinum player and going marauder (+ medivac med-late game) doesn't give me always a win (50/50). I agree with making the slowthing an upgrade in the techlab. for the mech thing kill the Thor toss it away allready and bring back the cobra mech fixed weeee. As for slow as upgrade you still have the same problem with Marauders kiteing zealots and zerglings when they get it. These units are made to be the counter of marauders if you leave it as a upgrade they still will counter them when the players gets it and they will get its as soon as they can. Problem still there /shrug. Again make zealots and Zerglings immune to slow problem solved
I don't want to take away any of the uniqueness from the unit. I think altering the abilities directly just turns the marauder into a generic RTS ranged shooter unit. Less units for the slow to affect means less chances to micro. Also from a realistic/lore standpoint, light units should be affected the most from the force of an infantry weapon, as opposed to an armored unit. Just picture being a marauder and being able to slow the moving speed of an incoming tank with the force of your shot, but not a zergling. I think that might look a little silly during combat.
I know, sometimes the kiting can get a little ridiculous. Making the ability a research would at least give zerg and toss a little bit of time to get out units other than zerglings and zealots.
Easier solution: Reduce the god damn HP, for christs sake, does anyone else think that having an infantry unit that has the same armor and 25 less hp than a tank(that costs considerably more) is a little ridiculous? Make the tank an actual tough and defensive armored vehicle. Give it enough armor and HP to compensate for a more fragile marauder. Remember units should compliment each others weaknesses, not overlap(if two units serve the same purpose the superior one will always be picked over the inferior).
Yeah I see how people are saying the immortal just counters all terran mech with its huge damage bonus to armored. Not sure sure if any buff to mech will fix this, if a immortal nerf is needed in place of a mech buff, or maybe the immortal is fine. Anyone care to elaborate? I'm a little hesitant on if the immortal needs to be touched to compensate a marauder nerf. Do you guys think that perhaps buffing mech won't solve the immortal mech rape but just throw off tvz, where terran isn't dying for a buff mech quite as bad?
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On April 05 2010 08:00 Daerthalus wrote:Show nested quote +Lots of these post don't seem to not take other Races into account when you say buff this nerf that. Need to think of all 3 races here just not the races you play with ... I don't know if that is directed at me or not, but I'll respond. Many of the Marauder Nerfs proposes would affect the TvZ match up, so I proposed a few Protoss buffs that either will not heavily affect ZvP or will have no effect at all on ZvP. The Zealot buff would more than likely not cause a big impact on PvZ though I could see having charge as base a little too good vs roaches. Perhaps have +speed base and Charge as ab upgrade would be best. Lings would still be faster than Zealots on Creep and building Zealots is a known early game counter to mass lings, so a speed buff wouldn't make a large difference. The stalker buff does little to nothing vs Zerg since +1 Armored damage from upgrades would not affect Zerg's ability to go Muta, roaches are still > stalkers and Broodlords are uncommon. The Immortal Hardened Shield buff would not affect zerg matchup, unless they made it a general reduction in the effect of spells/abilities on Immortals. Part of me feels a specific buff vs EMP would be highly unlikely. Shield Buff would barely affect the Zerg matchup. And if it's only for EMP it would have NO effect on Zerg at all. I doubt the shield buff would ever happen, as a general anti-spell buff to all Protoss units would be too good.
So most of these still effect pvz and pvp where as change zealots and zerglings immune to slow changes only t v z or p ...
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It seems to be that higher tier units need to increase in Damage/Health to make the early tech strategy. When you spend 150 min on a GY, 150 on a Cyber, 200/100 on a Robo and 200/200 on a RoboBay, plus 300/200 for a Colossus you can't have that unit dealing low damage as your opponent could've used the 1000min and 500 gas to build 2 Baracks, 2 Techlabs and a Bunch of Marauders.
I do however agree they need to nerf the damage/hp for T1.5 units. Look at Stalkers, Zealots and Sentrys for comparison. Blizzard specifically made stalkers weak to avoid the SC1's Dragoon awesomeness issue. Stalkers do less DPS than Zealots, Sentry as well, and all cost more than their T1 counterparts. Stalkers have extra Health, but Sentries are weaker than Zealots HP wise.
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On April 05 2010 08:30 kidcrash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 07:05 xnub wrote:On April 05 2010 06:58 lew wrote:
People just don't understand that the terran mech is too weak vs protoss. There is 1 problem: if they buff the terran mech, then zerg will be in trouble (because tanks are atm decent against zerg).
I am a platinum player and going marauder (+ medivac med-late game) doesn't give me always a win (50/50). I agree with making the slowthing an upgrade in the techlab. for the mech thing kill the Thor toss it away allready and bring back the cobra mech fixed weeee. As for slow as upgrade you still have the same problem with Marauders kiteing zealots and zerglings when they get it. These units are made to be the counter of marauders if you leave it as a upgrade they still will counter them when the players gets it and they will get its as soon as they can. Problem still there /shrug. Again make zealots and Zerglings immune to slow problem solved I don't want to take away any of the uniqueness from the unit. I think altering the abilities directly just turns the marauder into a generic RTS ranged shooter unit. Less units for the slow to affect means less chances to micro. Also from a realistic/lore standpoint, light units should be affected the most from the force of an infantry weapon, as opposed to an armored unit. Just picture being a marauder and being able to slow the moving speed of an incoming tank with the force of your shot, but not a zergling. I think that might look a little silly during combat. I know, sometimes the kiting can get a little ridiculous. Making the ability a research would at least give zerg and toss a little bit of time to get out units other than zerglings and zealots. Easier solution: Reduce the god damn HP, for christs sake, does anyone else think that having an infantry unit that has the same armor and 25 less hp than a tank(that costs considerably more) is a little ridiculous?
No cause tanks are support units that made to stay in the back and have meat shields in front of them. Also lower hp so they can be picked off by good micro from air or ground flank units. if you have nothing infront of your tanks you fail or its a tvt by way.
and research the problems is still there you are just pushing it back by a min or less. Not really fixing it. Reduceing the HP you are taking away terrans only meatshield unit.
Also if you want to go lore why would a rocket do less dmg to a light target with no armor and do more to armored target ? lore does not fit in SC2 mp or rts for balance talks lol. You still have many units to micro with as well and slow. This also cause no other problems with effecting somthing else /shrug
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On April 05 2010 08:33 Daerthalus wrote:
It seems to be that higher tier units need to increase in Damage/Health to make the early tech strategy. When you spend 150 min on a GY, 150 on a Cyber, 200/100 on a Robo and 200/200 on a RoboBay, plus 300/200 for a Colossus you can't have that unit dealing low damage as your opponent could've used the 1000min and 500 gas to build 2 Baracks, 2 Techlabs and a Bunch of Marauders.
I do however agree they need to nerf the damage/hp for T1.5 units. Look at Stalkers, Zealots and Sentrys for comparison. Blizzard specifically made stalkers weak to avoid the SC1's Dragoon awesomeness issue. Stalkers do less DPS than Zealots, Sentry as well, and all cost more than their T1 counterparts. Stalkers have extra Health, but Sentries are weaker than Zealots HP wise.
No, higher tech units don't need an increase in damage or health, Tier 1.5-3 units need an overall decrease in hitpoints, decreased damage output, and increased build time.
Avoid looking at it from a strictly resourcing point of view, because it will not happen that way. Look at the general trends in combination with the numbers. People like to stick to Tier 1.5 units because they are generally much better than Tier 1 units, they are comparable to Tier 3 units, and they can be massed relatively quickly for relatively little cost.
Protoss seems to be the only race that has a good unit mix in its armies, though Immortals and Colossi are becoming much too mandatory in my opinion and are too easily massed like the Roach and Marauder.
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On April 05 2010 08:23 LunarC wrote:
Problem is that Tier 1.5 units are much too useful for their position on the tech tree, and Tier 1 units simply cannot compete with units in Tiers higher than they are.
The average damage and hitpoints of units increases far too much as you go up Tiers, and especially Tier 1.5 units are too easy to mass relatively quickly.
Blizzard seriously needs to lower the overall damage and hitpoints of Tier 1.5-3 units and make these units harder to mass either by tweaking min/gas/supply costs and/or increasing build time.
Some overall changes that should be made are:
- Lower initial health/damage of Tier 1.5 units and increase one or more of min/gas/supply/time costs to make them harder to mass quickly.
- Lower survivability of Tier 2/3 units and make them even harder to mass by increasing their gas cost or increasing build time. Increasing gas cost and lowering Tier 3 units' effectiveness when used exclusively will encourage the production of lower Tier units to complement the Tier 3 units.
The specific numerical changes can be ironed out later. What I'm proposing is a change in the general trend of the game and its tech patterns.
These changes are general changes that should be made in a way that encourages using currently unfeasible unit mixes (mech) and discourages the use of only a limited variety of units (Marauders, Roach). Also, lowering overall survivability of units will place more emphasis on good micro rather than tanking ability of the unit. In addition, certain units should retain high damage output as long as they encourage interesting gameplay army control.
Only units I'd preserve are Tier 1 units, buildings, and casters.
People need to stop clinging to strategies that get them wins when the resulting game is both uninteresting to watch and unbalanced.
Really? To prevent massing of tier 3 units?
When did you ever see massing of colli without zealot support or similar support?
When did you ever see BCs massed? That never happens, with or without support.
And when did you at all see ultras?
I agree 100% on the fact that tier 1.5 units are too strong (and maybe some tier 2 units, immortals). But i really don't think tier 3 is at all too powerful.
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Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good:
-Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable
-Marauders have good range
-Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later)
-Marauders do bonus damage to armored units
-Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal
-Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units)
-Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders:
-Cannot attack air
-.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go:
-Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs)
-Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one)
-Banshees, BattleCruisers
-Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders
-Pheonixes with good micro
-Mutalisks
-Broodlords
-Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders.
The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff.
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On April 05 2010 08:44 Huxii wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 08:23 LunarC wrote:
Problem is that Tier 1.5 units are much too useful for their position on the tech tree, and Tier 1 units simply cannot compete with units in Tiers higher than they are.
The average damage and hitpoints of units increases far too much as you go up Tiers, and especially Tier 1.5 units are too easy to mass relatively quickly.
Blizzard seriously needs to lower the overall damage and hitpoints of Tier 1.5-3 units and make these units harder to mass either by tweaking min/gas/supply costs and/or increasing build time.
Some overall changes that should be made are:
- Lower initial health/damage of Tier 1.5 units and increase one or more of min/gas/supply/time costs to make them harder to mass quickly.
- Lower survivability of Tier 2/3 units and make them even harder to mass by increasing their gas cost or increasing build time. Increasing gas cost and lowering Tier 3 units' effectiveness when used exclusively will encourage the production of lower Tier units to complement the Tier 3 units.
The specific numerical changes can be ironed out later. What I'm proposing is a change in the general trend of the game and its tech patterns.
These changes are general changes that should be made in a way that encourages using currently unfeasible unit mixes (mech) and discourages the use of only a limited variety of units (Marauders, Roach). Also, lowering overall survivability of units will place more emphasis on good micro rather than tanking ability of the unit. In addition, certain units should retain high damage output as long as they encourage interesting gameplay army control.
Only units I'd preserve are Tier 1 units, buildings, and casters.
People need to stop clinging to strategies that get them wins when the resulting game is both uninteresting to watch and unbalanced. Really? To prevent massing of tier 3 units? When did you ever see massing of colli without zealot support or similar support? When did you ever see BCs massed? That never happens, with or without support. And when did you at all see ultras? I agree 100% on the fact that tier 1.5 units are too strong (and maybe some tier 2 units, immortals). But i really don't think tier 3 is at all too powerful.
You're right. Tier 3 is the least of my concerns with the way Starcraft 2 is turning out. I'm just trying to point out that units are much too robust and too many units deal large amounts of damage to compensate for increased hitpoints. Just look at how quickly buildings that have the same hitpoints from Starcraft 1 fall in Starcraft 2.
I think the attempt was to reduce importance of micro to emphasize army composition, but Blizzard's stepping on its own foot by raising average hp and damage so much.
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On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote:
Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good:
-Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable
-Marauders have good range
-Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later)
-Marauders do bonus damage to armored units
-Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal
-Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units)
-Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders:
-Cannot attack air
-.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go:
-Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs)
-Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one)
-Banshees, BattleCruisers
-Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders
-Pheonixes with good micro
-Mutalisks
-Broodlords
-Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders.
The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff.
You want the Marauder to be less boring and you want to REMOVE slow? I'd rather see a general decrease of hp and attack strength, and increase in build time of Tier 1.5-2 units. If Marauders must be nerfed to create this general decrease of hp, attack, and increase of build time, then buff mech by reducing supply cost of Tanks and decreasing their gas cost.
EDIT: Apologies for the double post...
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote:
Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good:
-Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable
-Marauders have good range
-Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later)
-Marauders do bonus damage to armored units
-Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal
-Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units)
-Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders:
-Cannot attack air
-.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go:
-Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs)
-Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one)
-Banshees, BattleCruisers
-Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders
-Pheonixes with good micro
-Mutalisks
-Broodlords
-Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders.
The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff.
Phoenix with good micro still don't counter marauders
Warp rays? It's void rays and they are pretty decent.
The problem isn't the Marauders themselves it's what you have to do counter them. As a Terran player I can say this, if the protoss has sentry+immortal+charged zealots, Marauders will lose. However even as a Terran player is does not seem fair to counter one massed unit Protoss player have to get so many different compositions. It reminds me of earlier Beta where zerg player masses hydras and Terran players have to get a lot of compositions to counter them... oh wait they still do that. I'm just going to cry now... and cry more
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Another fix Is adding an upgrade to make the slow a small AoE (.5), a buff, then adding a "kickback", after attacking, theirs a brief period where the maraunder plays a "kickback" animation and is unable to move.
This would allow it to fulfill a more heavily supportive role within the MM army, slowing down melee targets for marines to pick off, as well as adding much needed dps against armor and structures, but is unreliable by itself.
Removing stim is something else I kinda like too, but would probably make things worse if it was done without other changes.
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I don't see a problem with them. They are expensive, take long enough to build, and can't attack air.
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On April 05 2010 08:53 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote:
Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good:
-Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable
-Marauders have good range
-Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later)
-Marauders do bonus damage to armored units
-Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal
-Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units)
-Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders:
-Cannot attack air
-.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go:
-Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs)
-Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one)
-Banshees, BattleCruisers
-Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders
-Pheonixes with good micro
-Mutalisks
-Broodlords
-Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders.
The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff. You want the Marauder to be less boring and you want to REMOVE slow? I'd rather see a general decrease of hp and attack strength, and increase in build time of Tier 1.5-2 units. If Marauders must be nerfed to create this general decrease of hp, attack, and increase of build time, then buff mech by reducing supply cost of Tanks and decreasing their gas cost. EDIT: Apologies for the double post...
I don't think, that he thinks, that the marauder is boring because of it "playstyle" or as a mechanic, but boring because of the fact that is getting used all the time. Which he actuelly even says himself -.- It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring [...] Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
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I've said it before, I'll say it again. It's not just Marauders, it's a good majority of Tier 1.5-2 that suffers from hp inflation and damage inflation, not to mention being way too easily massed. Increasing build times/gas cost/supply cost, decreasing hp, and slightly decreasing damage will make diverse army composition essential and micro will become even more important because you cannot mass those units as easily anymore.
Focusing too much on one unit will cause people to lose sight of the bigger picture. So, they attribute the Marauder's "boringness" to something particular about it, rather than the general state of the game.
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On April 05 2010 09:04 RoosterSamurai wrote:
I don't see a problem with them. They are expensive, take long enough to build, and can't attack air.
They take five seconds longer to build then a marine.....they have the second highest ranged dpm in the game with stim....
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On April 05 2010 06:56 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 04:29 lololol wrote:On April 05 2010 04:14 -orb- wrote:
I don't think you understand chrono boost correctly. Stalker is 42 without chrono, 30 with. Immortal is 40 without, 28 with. It's not 50% reduced build time, it's 50% increased building speed, AKA 25% reduced build time.
I even tested this in a custom game. The build time for stalkers was 42 seconds and 30 with chrono (no idea why there's the 2 second discrepancy). The build time for immortals was 40 seconds and 28 with chrono.
Please fix this in the OP, you're making it seem like protoss could get out a stalker in a reasonable about of time in comparison to the marauder. 50% faster means 33.(3)% less buildtime, not 25%. Having units build 100% faster results in 50% buildtime, but simply halving the speed % will not give you the right result in any other case, the most obvious example would be that 200% faster build speed will not result in 100% lower buildtime, i.e. no buildtime at all. 42 / 1.5 = 28 40 / 1.5 = 26.(6) Stalker cooldown is 32 seconds or 32 / 1.5 = 21.(3) with chrono boost, so the difference after toss gets warpgates is pretty small. Additionally, Marauder build time is 30 seconds, not 33. Would you like me to show you the replay proving the times I wrote? You can do math all you'd like but in the replay whatever time it takes it whatever time it takes
You can't show me a replay proving the times you wrote, because such a replay doesn't exist.
I just did a test and a chrono boosted gateway builds stalkers in exactly 28 seconds replay time, so clearly you didn't have chrono 100% of the time the stalker was building and most likely used it again only after animation ended, which is clearly a flawed test and easily explains why you get ~2 seconds on top in both your "tests".
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Remove the slow ability. It's been done to death in WC3 and was a blessed relief to escape from when I started SC after being a WC3er. Constant slow abilities are unfun, anti-skill and have a very negative effect on tactical choices that are viable. Sure, if slow goes Terran would need help, I am not saying Terran should be weak (most readers would not assume this but this kind of discussion and the predictably idiotic response of 'you just want xyz to be weak because you are abc' comes up in most game betas), it is only the specific ability slow that must go.
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On April 05 2010 08:46 Ronald_McD wrote:
Here's a post I just made in the Blizz forums:
A lot of seasoned players agree that Marauders are in a way killing the game.
It's not that they're necessarily overpowered (though some people will say this) it's that they're so boring. They are so well rounded and excel in nearly every area. They make Terran game play very 1 dimensional and static. Marauders are the one size fits all approach to nearly everything. They don't necessarily win you games on the spot, but you're always using them no matter what the match up, for the same purpose. Terrans simply just mass up marauders and beat down everything with brute force. This might sound cool at first, but it makes every game feel the same.
Here's the many pros I came up with for what makes Marauders good:
-Marauders are relatively cheap and very affordable
-Marauders have good range
-Marauders slow down melee units (Which are SUPPOSED to be the counter to them. More on this later)
-Marauders do bonus damage to armored units
-Marauders are pretty fast considering how much damage they deal
-Marauders have high HP compared to other low level units. (They have health that is close to that of SC1 tank units)
-Can be loaded into bunkers
Now here's the very few cons of using Marauders:
-Cannot attack air
-.... Are there even any other ones? Seriously. I can't think of any.
What are the counters to Marauders? Well off the top of my head, let's have a go:
-Immortals (Though it ends up usually being an even trade off of resource costs)
-Hydras seem to match them evenly (Not 100% on this one)
-Banshees, BattleCruisers
-Warp Rays make a really really weak counter to pure marauders
-Pheonixes with good micro
-Mutalisks
-Broodlords
-Tanks (sorta)
The list is kind of big, but a lot of the ones I could think of were either a trade off with the marauders or too far up the tech tree/expensive to be practical.
Light melee units are supposed to hard counter Marauders, but they can't even do their jobs because the Marauder's slowing ability makes it impossible for them to approach. The slowing ability combined with the range and decent move speed makes it impossible for melee units to get a good surround.
Some possible solutions for marauders:
-Decrease or remove the slowing effect. It's gratuitous and instead of making Marauders interesting it just axes off their hard counters. While decreasing the Marauder's range or speed would make this ability have a purpose and not just a gratuitous buff on an already amazing unit, in its current state it just makes Zerglings and Zealots useless against Marauders.
-Buff other Terran options. I think to make this one work, Marauders would still have to be nerfed a little bit to balance it out. A lot of people say they don't want Marauders nerfed because Terran has no other options. If Marauders weren't good at everything, other Terran units would have to be improved to at least have a pivotal role in supporting Marauders
-Change their armor type. If Marauders were heavy armored, stalkers would at least be able to hold their own against them. Terran would need its other units that counter stalkers buffed to support this, I think.
-Decrease Marauder range. I'm not entirely sure on this one, but I think it's interesting. People would have to move their Marauders in closer and micro their way to beating their opponents. The slowing ability would actually make sense here, because it would help them chase down and move in closer to the enemy units with longer range.
-Decreasing speed on Marauders. This way, Marauders slowing grenades will have a purpose. Again, marauders will have to chase down other units because they're slower. The slowing grenades would be useful for this.
I think a combination of these solutions in moderation would work wonders.
The biggest ones being that if the Marauder gets nerfed, other terran units need a buff.
Would still be able to kite zealots and zerglings and removeing it would just make a plain old boring unit and you would need to add somthing cool to them like all the other teir 1.5 units have.
Would still leave the same problem with marauders and not fix the problem altho go go buff mech kill the thor bring back cobra.
Marauders are armored allready ....
would screw up MM combos if they both hade same range placment would be messed
Again would screw up the MM mix rines out in front all the time where as you want them in back. Also still would not fix the kiteing of zealots would help with zerglings. Unless you made them uber slow
And yes if marauders do get a big nerf mech better get a buff and Reactor build time should be unnerf or lowered. But if you just make it so that the slow does not effect Zealots and Zerglings the counter to Marauders problem solved no need for any other changes.
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I agree a lot with Demuslim's post in the OP. The problem is that terrans literally have nothing else good to beat protoss with, if you nerf marauders. It goes in a format sort of like this: Marauders > Protoss > Terran. I do think marauders are too strong in their current state, but it becomes a problem when you just solely nerf them and don't change anything else, because then protoss has a huge advantage and can win easily. There seems to be a huge web of interlinked units that would need to be changed/fixed in order to remove mass marauders from the equation. You'd either need to buff mech enough to where they don't die instantly to immortals, or you'd need to nerf immortals in some way that still makes them strong but not instant win vs mech. Having your army comprised of mostly marines vs P doesn't really work that well anymore now that people have figured out how to keep their colossi alive, and there's psi storm in the late game. Especially since you can't even get out enough marines anymore with the build time and reactor build time nerf, there's just no way that you can skew towards marines instead of marauders and win vs P. You NEED mech (or something else to be changed) to work if you are going to make mass marauders not work anymore.
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Perhaps Marauder stats and cost need to be rescaled as a 3 supply unit, and Siege Tanks as a 2 supply unit. If you did that, you could get it so that their combat potential wasn't terribly different in terms of raw damage, BUT it would be much more difficult to kite Zealots because the Zealots would always outnumber the Marauders.
If I recall correctly, this was one of the ways they reworked Dryads in the Warcraft 3 beta, which were having similar issues of being able to kite entire armies because they were so cheap and massable.
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EPT
