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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
Feel free to post in the forum Criticism is welcome. | ||
Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
I don't think it's as hard to harass (later in the game) as you say, although it could be that protoss is simply worse at harassing than t/z atm. Protoss' strength lie in their army vs army capabilities atm, which may lead towards your perspective that all of sc2 is big army vs big army fights. Islands work better for terran and zerg, I think it's another race-specific issue. For the most-part I agree with what you said though. | ||
Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
Tbh it should be HARDER and not easier... make it like in RA3 where if you use storm with all HTS selected they all cast at once (aka waste em) you need to select 1 HT to cast 1 storm etc... Put some better micro in this game cause right now it feels like its mostly macro... edit: and i want that for all casters just to be clear | ||
kAra
Germany1252 Posts
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
On March 25 2010 19:32 Technique wrote: Storm is already so easy to use and you want it even easier?^^ Tbh it should be HARDER and not easier... make it like in RA3 where if you use storm with all HTS selected they all cast at once (aka waste em) you need to select 1 HT to cast 1 storm etc... Put some better micro in this game cause right now it feels like its mostly macro... edit: and i want that for all casters just to be clear I never knew that it was like that in RA3. BW did the same on multiple selected casters. IMO, it should have stayed that way. Smartcasting makes things so easy. | ||
bodysnatcher21
Australia147 Posts
Hellions and repears are devastating. Mutalisks are still annoying as hell. And colossui absolutely rape workers on maps like desert oasis and kulas ravine, by getting behind the mineral line and using cliffs to stay out of range. I don't think stalkers are effective in SC2 for anything except countering valkyries in pvt, and void rays in pvp. Theyre also decent against marauders and roaches. They absolutely suck against light units, which means they are terrible at harrasing workers. I think its better to harras buildings with stalkers since they get bonus vs armored. | ||
tyCe
Australia2542 Posts
On March 25 2010 19:32 Technique wrote: Storm is already so easy to use and you want it even easier?^^ Tbh it should be HARDER and not easier... make it like in RA3 where if you use storm with all HTS selected they all cast at once (aka waste em) you need to select 1 HT to cast 1 storm etc... Put some better micro in this game cause right now it feels like its mostly macro... edit: and i want that for all casters just to be clear His point was that everything else is dumbed down but HTs less so. I personally think that they should make the game harder so that speed/mechanics plays a bigger role but I suppose that's against the trend of modern games and gamers. Anyway, he's an ex-progamer - it's not like he lacks the skill to do what you suggested. In fact, all BW casters were like this. | ||
Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
On March 25 2010 19:37 bodysnatcher21 wrote: I think harrasing is still great in SC2. Hellions and repears are devastating. Mutalisks are still annoying as hell. And colossui absolutely rape workers on maps like desert oasis and kulas ravine, by getting behind the mineral line and using cliffs to stay out of range. I don't think stalkers are effective in SC2 for anything except countering valkyries in pvt, and void rays in pvp. Theyre also decent against marauders and roaches. They absolutely suck against light units, which means they are terrible at harrasing workers. I think its better to harras buildings with stalkers since they get bonus vs armored. Hellions suck, and reapers have very limited windows of usefulness (vs competent players) in my experiences. | ||
deL
Australia5540 Posts
Lots of the problems might sort themselves out through patching or further balancing before release to make some redundant units viable. I agree about there needing to be more varied forms of harassment though and definitely about the high ground. PS - why no footage of you winking on GoodGame? >:o | ||
prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
I agree with everything you said Leg. But about the issue with your units ignoring your commands and attack anyway, I thought that was a problem too. Turned out because I was spamming ctrl+# to keep hotkeying them (just a silly habit from bw) they were attacking, because in StarCraft2, ctrl+right click = attack move. Once I made a conscious effort to stop re-assigning hotkey groups, this stopped happening. Hope I helped ya. | ||
Dark.Carnival
United States5095 Posts
I can't really vouch for Zerg or Protoss, but they really do seem stale. Either that's lack of people putting in the time to be creative, or they really are that stale on a whole. Protoss, especially after the gateway/warp-in nerfs, have zero presence in the early game, Stalkers are so shitty T_T Sentries rule, though Hallucination, while cute, is really useless. Apparently they didn't learn from BW that while it's a cute gimmick, it's almost never going to be used much. Terran on the other hand, I love the options available, though a slight buff to mech would rock. | ||
ooni
Australia1498 Posts
On March 25 2010 19:44 Nightmarjoo wrote: Hellions suck, and reapers have very limited windows of usefulness (vs competent players) in my experiences. I loled when this guys said hellions suck. They rape marines, lings and workers. I agree Reapers are quite hard to use correctly. When the reapers had less build time pre-patch, they were viable rushes. I reckon Reapers need to be like alpha (the drop timed mines). So they can be more fun to use. Of course cost and build time would need to be changed for this. I agree with OP. The some of the mechanics suck. However, let's be look at SC beta, wc3 beta and diablo beta. They are nothing like the final product, all the crap mechanics and useless units were removed/replaced. | ||
DorF
Sweden961 Posts
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GoDannY
Germany442 Posts
On March 25 2010 19:50 xDark.Carnivalx wrote: High ground and unit collison (hello speedlingsthatcanrunthroughANYTHING) are two things that desperately need to be altered. Well I personally think a high ground advantage was always essential in any RTS - but looking at the current maps, there is so much stuff like smoke / sight decreasing areas and ramps, that this would propably completely erase micro with just placement matches. I see Blizzards trouble in deciding weither or not include a random algorithm for that or not. This is hard to figure out, but I'd recommend that discussion article posted on the tl.net news two weeks ago. The unit collision thing DEFINATELY needs to be fixed - I'd like to add: speedlingsthatcanrunthroughANYTHING << ANDthenautosurroundeverythingtheypassedby | ||
Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
1) speedlings (and other fast small units) can just go thru shit. Seems utterly ridiculous and takes out some strategies that would be really fun and i think deserve a place in the game. 2) the army turning around and attack (which btw is something to do with hitting ctrl most of the time, which is still retarded and shouldnt be there). This is huge and game changing so many times. 3) there being no high ground advantage what so ever beyond 'cute'ness factor eg: early/early-mid game colossus/reaper/tank-nat-cliff drop. other stuff you complained about i think is really just protoss specific race issues (not just talking about the stuff that you put in the 'protoss' section.) There is a big availability for other races to take islands, just not protoss. Protoss strength doesnt lie in early game or harassing early game, it relies in macroing up and big army and crushing stuff. I don't think this is likely to change much (unfortunately for us P players :[). But the option to switch is always there ;P ps: i had no idea you were scion scion in sc2. ;o | ||
MapleLeafSirup
Germany948 Posts
I think protoss can harass alot, especially vs zerg. Sure your zealotrush will fail to a 1hatch-roach-build but isn't it obvious that rush-strategies should be counterable? Your zealotrush won't work against a 9pool speed bo in sc1 either. If zerg goes for an FE build your zealot rush can be quite effective. You can even harass alot while doing a tech-build with 2-3 choronoboosted zealots off 1 gate. Additional early harass can be done with phoenixes (lift off queens and drones and hunting overlords) and void-rays. And I don't consider storms as useless and colossi to be the better option. Once you have at least 3 gas I highly recommend using templars. They deal good damage and every noob can storm in sc2 like reach. In addition storms are not as easy to be dodged as in sc1. That leads to the point that you think spells cannot decide battles. I think storms, fungal growth for zerg, HSM, EMP for terran etc. can be the deciding factor in a battle and you can win even with a smaller army. | ||
s.a.y
Croatia3840 Posts
like the high ground issue. | ||
Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
#2: Yes, greater high ground advantage would allow different, more tech-focused builds. Then again, is this good for the game as an esport? You get some matches in SC1 that look like norush15 games where both players just turtle up and defend and expand and tech for a very long time. I'm not sure if forcing the players to be a little more army-conscious and promote poking the others' defenses is such a bad thing after all. #3: I'm pretty sure you use the word skewed wrong, so I don't understand what it is you meant to say. Is it that army size is too important? If that's the case, then I wouldn't be surprised considering that the metagame is at such an infant stage that low-tech massing strategies are the most common. #4: I honestly don't know about this. #5: Don't really see how this is different from SC1. #6: For top-tier players (like yourself), there will be a Proleague in the commercial version of SC2. You'll be able to tell who's the best in there. #7: What about using a Warp Prism to warp in HTs or DTs into the enemy base? What about phoenix harass with Graviton Beam or Warp Rays? You can even harass with a Colossus by just walking up the enemy cliff if their army isn't nearby, maybe even pick it up later with a Warp Prism if they block his escape. #8: I've seen island expansions being useful, just not as the first expansion. #9: If you need to scout several places at once, hallucinating probes can be a good idea. 4 scouts will let you catch proxies or ninja expansions very effectively. #10: Don't know about this. #11: Templars have their advantages. They can't be sniped by vikings or corruptors for instance. Feedback is very effective against a surprisingly large portion of the Terran units in the game (Ghosts, Thors, Medivacs, Ravens, Banshees, BCs). Storm hits air units. | ||
NiGoL
1868 Posts
Well i agree with the most of ur opns... Nice write! | ||
aseq
Netherlands3929 Posts
I also find it looks really weird when opponent's air units are above high ground and you don't see them, even though they are way up in the air and obviously nothing is blocking the line of sight. Don't know a good solution for it tho. | ||
Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On March 25 2010 19:32 Technique wrote: Storm is already so easy to use and you want it even easier?^^ Tbh it should be HARDER and not easier... make it like in SC where if you use storm with all HTS selected they all cast at once (aka waste em) you need to select 1 HT to cast 1 storm etc... Put some better micro in this game cause right now it feels like its mostly macro... edit: and i want that for all casters just to be clear Fixed | ||
deth
Australia1757 Posts
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iounas
409 Posts
On March 25 2010 21:16 Zato-1 wrote: #7: What about using a Warp Prism to warp in HTs or DTs into the enemy base? What about phoenix harass with Graviton Beam or Warp Rays? You can even harass with a Colossus by just walking up the enemy cliff if their army isn't nearby, maybe even pick it up later with a Warp Prism if they block his escape. #8: I've seen island expansions being useful, just not as the first expansion. Warp prism is also a dropship.. I watched some stream where a player moves his prism in mineral line- turns on power, warps 2 ht with +25energy research and storms.. It takes about 7 sec to turn it on and warp in so why not just load 2 ht and drop them and storm and load them quickly.. lol Islands are very powerful for terran.. Load 5 scv-s in cc and fly it there and make planetary fortress and some turrets and nobody can touch you.. | ||
lol_WomensRights
52 Posts
On March 25 2010 21:19 NiGoL wrote: It says that i cant post on those forums, weird. Well i agree with the most of ur opns... Nice write! cant post too wtf ... | ||
Latham
9511 Posts
On March 25 2010 22:22 lol_WomensRights wrote: Show nested quote + On March 25 2010 21:19 NiGoL wrote: It says that i cant post on those forums, weird. Well i agree with the most of ur opns... Nice write! cant post too wtf ... Of course you can't post there. The (NA) in the link stands for North America. Europeans don't have acess to those forums. We have our own EU forums. He's from Australia, and as far as I know Australia + NZ (that's New Zealand) are part of the North America beta. Unless he's playing in the European beta, then I don't know what the hell is going on. | ||
Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On March 25 2010 22:18 iounas wrote: Show nested quote + On March 25 2010 21:16 Zato-1 wrote: #7: What about using a Warp Prism to warp in HTs or DTs into the enemy base? What about phoenix harass with Graviton Beam or Warp Rays? You can even harass with a Colossus by just walking up the enemy cliff if their army isn't nearby, maybe even pick it up later with a Warp Prism if they block his escape. #8: I've seen island expansions being useful, just not as the first expansion. Warp prism is also a dropship.. I watched some stream where a player moves his prism in mineral line- turns on power, warps 2 ht with +25energy research and storms.. It takes about 7 sec to turn it on and warp in so why not just load 2 ht and drop them and storm and load them quickly.. lol Yes, at the time I was thinking of warping the HTs in at a corner of the enemy base where he didn't have sight. Loading the HTs into the warp prism and doing a standard storm drop works too :p | ||
deL
Australia5540 Posts
On March 25 2010 22:27 Latham wrote: Show nested quote + On March 25 2010 22:22 lol_WomensRights wrote: On March 25 2010 21:19 NiGoL wrote: It says that i cant post on those forums, weird. Well i agree with the most of ur opns... Nice write! cant post too wtf ... Of course you can't post there. The (NA) in the link stands for North America. Europeans don't have acess to those forums. We have our own EU forums. He's from Australia, and as far as I know Australia + NZ (that's New Zealand) are part of the North America beta. Unless he's playing in the European beta, then I don't know what the hell is going on. That's right, we are on the Americas server, just like the other Blizzard games where we were defaulted to US West. | ||
ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
a) Units push each other, and make them to lose their formations/mess up. also, if you have any non-hotkeyed units in the middle of your group, they will drag them. This also makes splitting 1 big group to a couple smaller groups way more annoying and frustrating. b) Auto-surround ai imo is pretty bad, your units keep glitching into each other, while making the surround to take way longer. Either make it proper or don't make it at all >.<. c) Unit collision is way too low, not only it's clumped way too hard against AoE attacks (like storm or emp), but also things like denying scouting in PvZ early game (with 3-4 zealots) is literaly impossible, lings will run by through anything but a perfect force field. There's some graphic bugs for Z as well, but that doesn't affect the gameplay, so it doesn't matter ;P. | ||
GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
but you spawn something like 10 probes per cast while you spawn only 1-2 archons which explains the 100 mana all around (different # spawned for each unit) and my only experience with workers not showing up as an idle worker is if they are at a xel'naga watch tower (that they are activating) which makes perfect sense | ||
Kare
Norway786 Posts
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
On March 25 2010 21:34 Caphe wrote: Show nested quote + On March 25 2010 19:32 Technique wrote: Storm is already so easy to use and you want it even easier?^^ Tbh it should be HARDER and not easier... make it like in SC where if you use storm with all HTS selected they all cast at once (aka waste em) you need to select 1 HT to cast 1 storm etc... Put some better micro in this game cause right now it feels like its mostly macro... edit: and i want that for all casters just to be clear Fixed Yea excuse me i never played sc1 so i took an example i knew. | ||
Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
Move-command working as A-move is also pretty huge to gameplay imo.. | ||
Jonoman92
United States9091 Posts
I don't feel like island are useless.... But I'm terran so maybe it's different for me. I also haven't noticed that right click moving units will attack if they are being attacked but I'm sure I'll notice it eventually. | ||
Qiin
Australia102 Posts
How do you manage with the delay in SC2 playing from Aus? Are you using SSH tunneling service like lowerping or are u just dealing with it? | ||
danieldrsa
Brazil522 Posts
Saying templar is useless is quite strange. There are so many platinium reps of good players owning with Storm. In some cases is way better than Clossus (corruptors own them by example) | ||
Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Also I'm not sure if HTs are worth complaining about, but against a T with Ghosts I suppose it is frustrating compared to the ease of Collosus. Everything else seems sound. Respect to the pro gaming with a 57-kill Reaver on TV. | ||
yoshi_yoshi
United States440 Posts
The point is that we shouldn't refer to it as a bug or else Blizz may ignore that. They did it intentionally and we need to convince them that it's a poor feature. | ||
CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
- I noticed the 'click too fast and game hangs search bug' as well. I reported it on sc2 bug forums a while ago, but it seems like blizzard doesn't even read half of that shit storm so it's hard to get them to notice or patch anything. -about the units attack when told to move bugs, one of them is from pressing ctrl while issuing a command. (such as hotkeying/rehotkeying and moving) Ctrl acts like A, so that if you press it, it attacks ground. VERY VERY VERY annoying, even CowGoMoo was complaining about it. And the stupid thing is this is actually a feature not a bug, iirc. There seems to be another bug though, maybe the way you described it. Where units will belay commands and just attack as well. To add, the worst thing about high ground is that it feels DISADVANTAGEOUS more than it feels like any kind of advantage at all. The reasoning being, the way the 3d perspective and units respond to commands near edges of cliffs make them do weird seemingly random things. Some of them will run around looking for a way down, some will go directly to the ramp, some will shoot, etc. If the opponent has no way to see up the ledge, they avoid it anyways, and then you are left with a jammed force where his have a full arc below the ramp. It's literally impossible to get down a ramp and break any kind of contain at this point. And even if it hasn't gotten to this contain point, the opponent still has a huge range of space to move around and micro below the ramp while you are stuck on some tight uneven line of units to fight back. This is especially evident with short range units like Roaches. So while, in scbw we would often see early game skirmishes where players would try and outskill the advantage of uphill battles with an increased amount of units from below, now we just see people avoiding this all together (because they can't fight back at all) and instead rushing for some kind of air unit to see up the ledge and then there is an advantage from then on for anyone NOT on a cliff. It's completely ridiculous and backwards. | ||
mechanix
33 Posts
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Mannerheim
766 Posts
Just about every TvT on Desert Oasis is now proxy rax, lift one for vision and deny mining from main completely. It's almost impossible to stop unless you bunker the cliff AND open with dual rax (i.e. guess right). | ||
milly9
Canada325 Posts
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Retsukage
United States1002 Posts
Meaning if you are on high ground your sight radius is increased largely, therefore you can see more of what is below you. It makes sense if you think about it realistically. | ||
Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
On March 25 2010 19:59 ooni wrote: Show nested quote + On March 25 2010 19:44 Nightmarjoo wrote: Hellions suck, and reapers have very limited windows of usefulness (vs competent players) in my experiences. I loled when this guys said hellions suck. They rape marines, lings and workers. I agree Reapers are quite hard to use correctly. When the reapers had less build time pre-patch, they were viable rushes. I reckon Reapers need to be like alpha (the drop timed mines). So they can be more fun to use. Of course cost and build time would need to be changed for this. I agree with OP. The some of the mechanics suck. However, let's be look at SC beta, wc3 beta and diablo beta. They are nothing like the final product, all the crap mechanics and useless units were removed/replaced. In my experiences, they don't rape marines, they get raped by speedlings badly, and they usually only wound workers and force them to not mine for a small bit of time. Hellions suck from what I've seen. Not sure whose hellions vs whose lings you've been watching, but particularly there hellions do not rape lings at all. There are definitely rare situations where they can work nicely vs workers or early marines, but they suck badly vs lings. | ||
BC.KoRn
Canada567 Posts
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pyrogenetix
United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
no high ground advantage ? O_o | ||
SleepSheep
Canada344 Posts
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ooni
Australia1498 Posts
On March 26 2010 08:29 pyrogenetix wrote: right click = a move ? no high ground advantage ? O_o Ye you can M-move to make it work correctly the problem is using A-attack on enemy workers then if the attacker is attacked by some other non-worker unit it stops attacking that worker unit. that just sucks. hahah legionnaire bro you were on TV http://www.abc.net.au/tv/goodgame/video/default.htm?pres=20100322_2030&story=7 | ||
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