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United States7166 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:49 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 04:45 Zelniq wrote:On March 15 2010 04:35 Retsukage wrote:On March 15 2010 03:32 Whiplash wrote:
The thing is zerg can build mutas much faster then phoenixes, so he will have a number atv over your units 9/10 times. Splash would help balance this out I think and help alleviate some of protoss's anti air issues. This. Queen production from 2 base is so far superior then phoenix production from two base its ridiculous. How is protoss supposed to match it? Just surprise! we have 5 stargates? I don't think so, in addition you can not invest that much in phoenix or else you will be over ridden with hydra/ling/ect 1 stargate is enough just make some phoenixes like 4-6 and attack with a well balanced army at the right time, using observer to scout and help tell you when that is. zerg wont be able to get mass mutas in time nor have enough antiground to stop it either ok, so not only do you open with stargate, you also somehow have an observer dual tech off of one base? or are you really implying that expanding is possible against a zerg before you move out with a considerable force? and if you're sinking that much gas into dual teching, getting phoenixes and obs, you are NOT gonna have a formidable ground force. Really, i hope you can prove me wrong with recent (read: this patch) replays of plat level players doing and dying to what you describe, but it simply sounds ridiculous
no dont open with stargate, after you scout spire with obs opening you get a stargate then. and yes you can have both robo tech and stargate with gateways off of 1 base.
however if you do open stargate which I believe you still can, your speedy phoenix can scout the zerg rather than observer obviously. but i think robo openings are more effective
this is based off of old patches but i dont see how the latest patch effects what i had in mind. you wouldnt really be needing to add the pressure that previous warp gate rushes used to have, and you would have warp gate researched long before pushing out. btw not only can you afford this from 1 base but lorelei used to also get forge +1 weapons as well in combination with all of this, when he suspected or saw heavy lings
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On March 15 2010 05:03 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 04:49 TheAntZ wrote:On March 15 2010 04:45 Zelniq wrote:On March 15 2010 04:35 Retsukage wrote:On March 15 2010 03:32 Whiplash wrote:
The thing is zerg can build mutas much faster then phoenixes, so he will have a number atv over your units 9/10 times. Splash would help balance this out I think and help alleviate some of protoss's anti air issues. This. Queen production from 2 base is so far superior then phoenix production from two base its ridiculous. How is protoss supposed to match it? Just surprise! we have 5 stargates? I don't think so, in addition you can not invest that much in phoenix or else you will be over ridden with hydra/ling/ect 1 stargate is enough just make some phoenixes like 4-6 and attack with a well balanced army at the right time, using observer to scout and help tell you when that is. zerg wont be able to get mass mutas in time nor have enough antiground to stop it either ok, so not only do you open with stargate, you also somehow have an observer dual tech off of one base? or are you really implying that expanding is possible against a zerg before you move out with a considerable force? and if you're sinking that much gas into dual teching, getting phoenixes and obs, you are NOT gonna have a formidable ground force. Really, i hope you can prove me wrong with recent (read: this patch) replays of plat level players doing and dying to what you describe, but it simply sounds ridiculous no dont open with stargate, after you scout spire with obs opening you get a stargate then. and yes you can have both robo tech and stargate with gateways off of 1 base. however if you do open stargate which you can, your speedy phoenix can scout the zerg rather than observer obviously. this is based off of old patches but i dont see how the latest patch effects what i had in mind. you wouldnt really be needing to add the pressure that previous warp gate rushes used to have, and you would have warp gate researched long before pushing out. btw not only can you afford this from 1 base but lorelei used to also get forge +1 weapons as well in combination with all of this, when he suspected or saw heavy lings
ok, I dont really wanna keep arguing, especially if theres a chance this could work, so im trying this (robo opening), will post replays later in this thread.
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2 base zerg destroys a 1 base protoss. you have to expand as soon as you can so you can get your gas rolling for all the tech you need.
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I don't agree. I think Protoss can handle air pretty well and you can achieve this in several ways also.
You can put early pressure on the zerg, you can do cheese, you can counter with 2-3 sentries and 10 stalkers and phoenix is actually good enough against mutalisk.
There is a vierd thing where 12 mutalisks can own 12 phoenixes, because mutalisks deal damage to multiple units, but less and more units is more tightly balanced and does not cause problems.
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United States7166 Posts
what the hell where do you get this idea?
there's absolutely NO way 12 mutalisks can beat 12 phoenixes, it's not even close
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Quick question: does guardian shield also protect air units?
edit: i'm gonna go online now and test a stargate harass opening, like in SC PvZ. As in fast stargate -> go fuck up overlords with the uber fast pheonixes.
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zel u should check out my replay vs glade in the replay thread
if a zerg does mutas well toss have 0%chance simply cause zerg will be able to expand while muta harrassing and toss has to cannon/stay around base and over time toss simply gets outmassed even if u see it coming and make 2 stargates.
imo they should change the armor of phoenix so muta does less damage to them, and corrupters do more damage to them. right now mutas do tons of damage and corrupters not as much, they are just hard for phoenixs to kill.
or have a splash upgrade for pheonixs since anyway it wil only be good in the pvz matchup vs mutas
or make muta just attack land only like banshees, a drastic idea but seriously muta shouldnt be a counter to air as well, isnt that what corrupters are?
just some thoughts.
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On March 15 2010 03:07 Fayth wrote:
thing is, phoenix is not a counter to mutas really, as opposed to corsairs who had splash, more mutas makes phoenix less effective cuz of the bouncing thingies
yes, gone are the days when toss could counter infinite mutas with a few corsair. now, if you want to control the air you have to make more than one stargate.
the thing is, once you have a crazy amount of pheonix (10+), we have no real way to ever regain air control as our corruptors are no better a counter than the muta are.
so, with solid control of the air you are now free to do some air tech (are carriers any good?) or just use them to pick up half the enemy army in the next fight.
the bounce is not an issue in equal numbers because the pheonix just kill muta so fast. the bounce never hits more than 3, and the 3rd bounce is miniscule damage anyway. by doing this you also dissuade us from using brood lords.
so our best counter to a bunch of pheonix is to tech switch to roach/hydra. so you just switch to robo units and gg us. with pheonix out we can,t even use infestors to stop colossus cause you can just pick them up, so it'll pretty much just own us.
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Each phoenix is approximately as strong as 2 mutas, so there's no way 12 mutas can beat 12 phoenix unless they have a severe upgrade advatange.
Guardian shield protects air units, muta bounce damage becomes 7-1-0(the guardian shield can completely nullify damage, the 0.5 minimum damage per hit does not apply to it) from 9-3-1, a total of 8, instead of 13.
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United States17042 Posts
On March 15 2010 05:45 z]Benny wrote:
Quick question: does guardian shield also protect air units?
edit: i'm gonna go online now and test a stargate harass opening, like in SC PvZ. As in fast stargate -> go fuck up overlords with the uber fast pheonixes.
This has been what I've been doing - however, it loses to all sorts of lowtech rushes and delays your expansion like crazy. On the plus side, it denies scouting, which is really nice, and if you get like 3-5 pheonixes, you can start lifting and killing off the queen.
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Cannons are way, way stronger in SC2 than in SC, just so you know.
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On March 15 2010 05:58 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 05:45 z]Benny wrote:
Quick question: does guardian shield also protect air units?
edit: i'm gonna go online now and test a stargate harass opening, like in SC PvZ. As in fast stargate -> go fuck up overlords with the uber fast pheonixes. This has been what I've been doing - however, it loses to all sorts of lowtech rushes and delays your expansion like crazy. On the plus side, it denies scouting, which is really nice, and if you get like 3-5 pheonixes, you can start lifting and killing off the queen.
My counter to targeting my queens is to mass them as they only cost mins as an easy early air counter as their aa is pretty decent but lift screws with them. As i can't match you in getting anti air quick enough and hydralisk without speed are pretty shitty i'll just expo keep on low tech and mass queens as aa it's a really specific build and i have to make sure you're going for quick air because if you instead feint into 3 warp gate zealot it will roll over my lings queen army way to easily.
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the strength of phonexis is that they kill mutas very quickly when focus fireing. but mutas also do alot of damage to phoenixs. and if u ever get to the stage where its mass vs mass same cost ie 37muta vs 25 phoenix, mutas will ALWAYS win because u cant focus fire that many muta, and the muta splash will totally annihilate your army.
anyone who says sentires are the counter has not a played a good zerg who will take the whole map while harrasing you and you will be basically stuck in base the whole game
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The thing is as a Protoss player if you invest a lot of resources into Phoenix' to counter the Mutal, it's very easy for the Zerg player to change gears and switch to Hydras, where as Protoss it is much harder to go from a Phoenix build to a Robo/Templar Archive build with out an expansion.
I think Psi storm is fine, but IMO archon is too weak vs Mutals, they can easily kill it and prevent you from expanding for quite some time.
Buff Archons please.
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On March 15 2010 06:14 BC.KoRn wrote:
The thing is as a Protoss player if you invest a lot of resources into Phoenix' to counter the Mutal, it's very easy for the Zerg player to change gears and switch to Hydras, where as Protoss it is much harder to go from a Phoenix build to a Robo/Templar Archive build with out an expansion.
I think Psi storm is fine, but IMO archon is too weak vs Mutals, they can easily kill it and prevent you from expanding for quite some time.
Buff Archons please.
How is that? Both races have to build another buildings, and with phoenixes left after mutas are dead you can snipe hit-n-run ov's which leaves Zerg in a eco disadvantage. If you have 4-5 phoenixes left you can also hit and run kill Queens, and there is no way to prevent it unless Zerg sits in his base.
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On March 15 2010 06:11 aLt)nirvana wrote:
and if u ever get to the stage where its mass vs mass same cost ie 37muta vs 25 phoenix, mutas will ALWAYS win because u cant focus fire that many muta, and the muta splash will totally annihilate your army.
37 muta is 74 supply, 3700 minerals, and 3700 gas. 1221 total build time.
25 pheonix is 50 supply, 3750 minerals, and 2500 gas. 1125 total build time.
(Numbers from sc2armory, I don't think they're incorrect, but the build times might be).
I don't see how you can call this "same cost," since the mutas effectively cost more minerals (supply cost) and definitely cost a lot more gas. The build time is mostly meaningless since Z obviously has a lot more potential build time available because of how they make units (and it's not the limiting factor for mutas anyway).
According to the dps spreadsheet someone posted a couple days ago, pheonixes have twice the dps of mutas assuming they're attacking light targets and accounting for muta bounce. They also have 50% more HP per unit.
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United States7166 Posts
im interested to test it but i'm pretty sure 25 phoenixes would beat 37 mutas even w/o micro every time
i will check that replay out later when i can aLt
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hey guys im just wondering..... HAS ANYBODY TRIED ARCHONS? i mean they do 35 vs biological + 4 dmg / upgrade, i know their range sucks but just keep 1 archon at your cannons in your main? say u got +2 ground attack fast, that would be 43 dmg vs mutas, kill them in 3 hits with archon, and yea archon range is only 2 but muta range is only 3
if u had 3 archons in your main army when the zerg has 20 mutas, the z wouldnt be able to engage u because you could target mutas and 1shot them lol
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On March 15 2010 05:03 Zelniq wrote:
no dont open with stargate, after you scout spire with obs opening you get a stargate then. and yes you can have both robo tech and stargate with gateways off of 1 base.
however if you do open stargate which I believe you still can, your speedy phoenix can scout the zerg rather than observer obviously. but i think robo openings are more effective
ya, just spend 200 gas on the robo, 100 gas on the immortal (cause you got a roach warren but made no roach) 200 gas on the support bay, 75 gas on the ob, and then when you scout his almost-done spire start your stargate, watch it build (while zerg expands) then start massing up pheonixes with your 1 stargate and 2 gas against his 2 larva injected hatches supported by 4 gas
np
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1 Sentry (Shield) + 2 Cannon (per expo) + Phoenix
works well
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EPT
