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On March 15 2010 06:34 duckhunt wrote:
hey guys im just wondering..... HAS ANYBODY TRIED ARCHONS? i mean they do 35 vs biological + 4 dmg / upgrade, i know their range sucks but just keep 1 archon at your cannons in your main? say u got +2 ground attack fast, that would be 43 dmg vs mutas, kill them in 3 hits with archon, and yea archon range is only 2 but muta range is only 3
if u had 3 archons in your main army when the zerg has 20 mutas, the z wouldnt be able to engage u because you could target mutas and 1shot them lol
I think in almost every case you would be better off with two psistorms than one archon. At least psistorm has some decent range.
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United States7166 Posts
On March 15 2010 06:39 Taurent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 05:03 Zelniq wrote:
no dont open with stargate, after you scout spire with obs opening you get a stargate then. and yes you can have both robo tech and stargate with gateways off of 1 base.
however if you do open stargate which I believe you still can, your speedy phoenix can scout the zerg rather than observer obviously. but i think robo openings are more effective
ya, just spend 200 gas on the robo, 100 gas on the immortal (cause you got a roach warren but made no roach) 200 gas on the support bay, 75 gas on the ob, and then when you scout his almost-done spire start your stargate, watch it build (while zerg expands, you may click around your base) then start massing up pheonixes with your 1 stargate and 2 gas against his 2 larva injected hatches supported by 4 gas np
robo costs 100 gas not 200, pretty big difference. i know you play protoss at a high level..you must be confused with bw though -_-
it's similar to lair which is 100 gas
spire is 200/200 but stargate is 150/150 and warps in 40 seconds faster. phoenixes have a longer build time than mutas but are much more cost effective than mutas and you dont need a massive amount of them, just about 3-6 depending on when you attack. you can also chrono boost them as well. something else to note, not only do phoenixes kill mutas in 7 hits (mutas regen 1 hp so they'll have 1 hp after 6 hits. any other attack + 6 shots kills obv) vs 20 hits from muta to kill phoenix, and phoenixes attack much faster and move a little faster as well, they also have longer range. bouncing attacks only do 3 dmg for first bounce, 1 for 2nd. with guardian shield this becomes 1/0. (and reduces main projectile to 7).
zerg also needs to get way more mutas than P needs phoenixes, minimum of at least 1000 gas to be effective, while only a few phoenixes with some ground army is more than enough to deal with larger gas amounts of mutas for the attack.
overseer costs 100 gas btw and isnt invisible yet still crucial as the zerg to get. if you think zerg gets 4 gases just cus he has an expo youve never played zerg in sc2..you cant afford to get 4 gas until you have fairly good saturation and enough army/tech units to defend. zerg wont have 4 gas for very long at all, if even, before the timing attack.
and why do you need support bay? this timing attack doesnt involve colossuses wtf lol
unit mix should involve a combo of zealots/stalkers (which maybe are not even necessary/ideal, but still works) /sentries/1immortal/ a few phoenixes.
as for defending your base while pushing out? a couple cannons are pretty effective vs mutas in small numbers. if he really commits to killing them you can warp in a unit or 2 to help. the zerg would need to bring back the mutas anyway or throw his base away..
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United States7166 Posts
hi kiwi
vs hydras? yeah they do. vs mutas and corruptors? no they got them beat
even if you made some phoenixes and zerg didnt get air theyre still useful to pickup hydras/roaches/infestors in battle, as well as annoying harassing units/overlords and good air control and prevents overlords from giving map vision
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probably more on tilt from a -200 point losing streak than confused
Your theorycraft makes sense. However the whole point of mutas is to harass the toss and buying time to build up your economy, so you only really need a few of them. By the time i have an army strong enough to move out (and a main defended), i usually get rolled by hydras. Sentries are about as good as probes vs hydras. The huge strength of zerg is that they can tech switch so quickly.
I'm not saying its impossible to win vs zerg, i'm just pointing out what has given me the most trouble so far.
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On March 15 2010 07:23 KiWiKaKi wrote:
phoenix sux ass
ya, Zelniq you make phoenix look great on paper but _every_ time i got pheonixes against zerg, I lost. every single time. do I suck with them ? probably, but I just dont know any high level protoss who likes them
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United States7166 Posts
perhaps you can show me some replays and i can give my specific comments about them.
if not well
if the zerg is going for somewhat early mutas and then hydras after to defend the push (assuming he fast expo'd btw), your early obs should spot this early spire and hit the zerg before he gets many/any hydras. cannons hold up well vs a small number of mutas, and if you attack him he's forced to pull them back anyway.
a small number of mutas still costs a ton of gas and sets back the zerg quite a bit, he should be really weak on the ground army..too weak to defend vs your mostly or 100% ground army. if you hit early enough you dont even need phoenixes, sentries would be enough vs small numbers of mutas when attacking.
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United States7166 Posts
On March 15 2010 07:34 Taurent wrote:ya, Zelniq you make phoenix look great on paper but _every_ time i got pheonixes against zerg, I lost. every single time. do I suck with them ? probably, but I just dont know any high level protoss who likes them
lorelei (aka Insane) who was ranked 1 as toss before he switched a few days ago to terran loved phoenixes and is the one who showed me repeatedly in like 12 custom 1v1s how strong phoenixes and a timing attack was vs muta builds. i also heard and noticed that response likes mutas as well, and i think 1-2 other tosses at high level i dont remember who also have used phoenixes to good use.
lorelei told me he may switch back to toss soon so he'll have replays probably to back up what ive been saying
p.s. i think it's common for players to feel phoenixes are weak at first glance. lorelei and i both came to that conclusion in the first few days of beta, but we both learned their power later on
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Ehm, and? 100 Phoenix costs much more than 100 mutas, they take several times longer to build and they can only attack air. Mutas on the other hand are cheap, build super quick and are effective vs pretty much everything.
There is an imbalance right now in the game, protoss can hardly do anything against mass muta+ling.
Please show me a protoss player who above 50% of the time wins against an equally skilled opponent who has gone mass muta ling.
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On March 15 2010 07:31 Taurent wrote:
probably more on tilt from a -200 point losing streak than confused
Your theorycraft makes sense. However the whole point of mutas is to harass the toss and buying time to build up your economy, so you only really need a few of them. By the time i have an army strong enough to move out (and a main defended), i usually get rolled by hydras. Sentries are about as good as probes vs hydras. The huge strength of zerg is that they can tech switch so quickly.
I'm not saying its impossible to win vs zerg, i'm just pointing out what has given me the most trouble so far.
^^
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On March 15 2010 07:43 Paladia wrote:
There is an imbalance right now in the game, protoss can hardly do anything against mass muta+ling.
Please show me a protoss player who above 50% of the time wins against an equally skilled opponent who has gone mass muta ling.
Umm, about everyone?
Sentries own mutas. Stalkers own mutas. Phoenixes own mutas.
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United States7166 Posts
On March 15 2010 07:43 Paladia wrote:Ehm, and? 100 Phoenix costs much more than 100 mutas, they take several times longer to build and they can only attack air. Mutas on the other hand are cheap, build super quick and are effective vs pretty much everything. There is an imbalance right now in the game, protoss can hardly do anything against mass muta+ling. Please show me a protoss player who above 50% of the time wins against an equally skilled opponent who has gone mass muta ling.
http://www.livestream.com/insanesc2
aka Lorelei
these are all of him as protoss, but it was not this patch.
he was #1 plat div at the time and still is afaik (now with terran)
i'm not sure where but im sure there are several games of him using phoenixes to great effect, including vs mutas. he loved the 1 base timing attack vs muta players before they get a large number
he would often chrono boost +1 forge weapons for 2 shotting zerglings with zealots among other benefits
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I'm not any good, but I've seen some plat toss players use early phoenix to harass worker lines or kill off queens to really hamper Z unit production, and can even hold off groups of 3-4 hydras with a ratio phoenix to hydra of 1.5:1 and then finishing him off with his ground army.
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On March 15 2010 07:45 cyllu2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 07:43 Paladia wrote:
There is an imbalance right now in the game, protoss can hardly do anything against mass muta+ling.
Please show me a protoss player who above 50% of the time wins against an equally skilled opponent who has gone mass muta ling. Umm, about everyone? Sentries own mutas. Stalkers own mutas. Phoenixes own mutas.
WRONG
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I have no particular complaints with how cannons fair against mutas. Or how Phoenixes, Stalkers, or Sentries do, for that matter. My issue with mutas is that they make you stop to build specific AA units. Sentry/Stalker/Phoenix is nothing you'd mass against Z in any other strategy, so until you have time to build up your AA army, Z gets map control. And while it's certainly quite doable to build up such an AA army, in the meantime it's not really very hard for the Z to expand while denying your ability to do the same, leading to an economic advantage down the road. Moreover, your AA focused army isn't actually good for much else, so if, after you beat back their mutas, they transition to mass ground, you can be in pretty serious trouble.
Really, it feels to me that the problem is that things that P might reasonably want to do anyway need to not die quite so badly to mutas. Which probably just means stalkers need to be a bit stronger. Were that the case, it would be easier to maintain some map presence in the face of a muta switch. Then again, despite these difficulties I have a decent win rate against Z, so maybe it's okay. Hard to say for sure.
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United States7166 Posts
i'd like to reiterate that despite my many posts trying to convince people phoenixes in fact dont suck vs mutas and that there are good ways to beat muta'ing players..i dont mean it's fine and protoss/zerg dont need any changes in terms of mutas AT ALL. clearly they need a better ground solution, tho storm is decent it's not quite good enough. Either stalkers / archons (return splash) need to be buffed would be the best solution. On this same note, nerf colossuses so zerg ground isnt completely fucking garbage pieces of shit vs colossi. shouldnt be forced to mass air units to counter a ground unit
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United States7166 Posts
steve has the right idea and is why i strongly advocate the timing attack vs early mutas. if he transitions to mutas after a strong ground army then i'm not exactly sure what's the best solution..protoss definitely seems to have issues there. storm's quite effective though vs mutas and obviously ground as well so remember that. and archons arent completely useless vs mutas either for after-storm usage.
remember that right now, in later stages of game colossus is such a problem for zerg that they are forced to get air anyways and unable to attack with ground till colossi are dead, which is equally dumb as what steve said
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I'd go with Steve on this one. I like his arguments and Steve is such a lovely name.
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On March 15 2010 08:09 Zelniq wrote:
steve has the right idea and is why i strongly advocate the timing attack vs early mutas.
What sort of timing attack are you using? Like, for a while I was crushing muta zergs with a Zealot+Immortal timing push, but with the warp gate nerf it now only works on the shortest rush distance maps - Steppes, close positions on Temple, that sort of thing. On, like, Oasis, they can easily have mutas before I get a dangerous ZI push to their base. I've also found it to be highly susceptible to ling runbys - if they run a dozen lings into your base when you're halfway to theirs, it's hard not to lose an awful lot of probes, and as long as they get mutas out in time to save their lair they just sort of win at that point. So I'm curious if you've found something that works well on those larger maps.
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EPT
