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United States7166 Posts
im not protoss, im the muta-abusing zerg hated user
but i'm guessing a later attack with a larger ground army, a couple cannons in main, and antiair in the form of a few phoenixes combined with sentry/stalker/zealot/immortal is the way to go. this is prepatch but i think it will still work fine as warp gate tech comes in fast enough for the timing.
a couple cannons should help you in your counter-attack'd zergling or muta problems. warp-in for extra defense as well
im telling myself to stop checking this thread for a while, ive a tough midterm tomorrow and instead wasted how many hours with this and on other TL/internet stuff
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On March 15 2010 03:06 Zelniq wrote:
protosses seem to not be too aware of how good phoenixes are vs mutalisks. i think they've mostly been focusing with ground units and on the ground, they have a really tough time dealing with mutalisks. many sentries are good in a straight up fight, but theyre slow and so bad at defending bases.
Phoenixes are really good in just straight up muta v phoenix fights, 6 phoenixes kills mutas in 1 shot, and they attack pretty fast. ofc this means 3 phoenixes will kill mutas in 2 shots. however it takes 20 mutalisk attacks to kill 1 phoenix, and their range is shorter.
If toss starts getting phoenixes after observer scouts spire, like 5-6 supported by a nice mixed ground army of sentries/stalkers/zealots/immortals for a good timing attack, that will crush mutas easily, especially with guardian shield. this works well vs pretty much what any early mutalisking player will have.
or you can opt for earlier phoenixes and mass them more, theyre still great in large numbers of mutas vs phoenixes. This is what Response used to do (or still does maybe?) a lot vs zerg.. as well as some other protosses (lorelei aka Insane used to do a ton, he showed me how good phoenixes were, back before he switched to terran). Phoenixes are extremely fast and good harassing.. first few to kill overlords, then after getting around 4-5 start raping queens/drones/lone hydras. ofc theyre really useful for pickign up infestors, and even early roach pushes as well.
another misconception about Phoenixes is their weakness to Corruptors. in a straight up battle, they're evenly matched to Corruptors, however Corruptors move MUCH slower than the very fast phoenix, and so the P player gets to decide when he wants to fight, and can always run away if outnumbered. however if the Z is outnumbered and tries to run, the corruptors will all get picked off. it's also very easy to pull away phoenixes just before they die to save them as well, as corruptors cant chase them whatsoever
As a 5th plat zerg, who abuses going stright to muta every single zvp, I approve of this message.
-Cannons were never meant to stop mutas by themselves, even in sc1.
-Phoenix I think are actually just as useful as sairs, just in different ways. If you have enough of them, during a ground engagement, you can effectively pull many zerg ground units out of play. Also, as a P player you need to consciously realize that phoenix's aren't sairs. You need to micro them to focus fire as well as retreating them to your cannons/ground forces frequently. They outrange muta by far and do more damage, there is no reason not to have a decent time micro'ing them vs muta.
-Ground is viable, P's just need to stop opening with that stupid robo opening blind and spend the gas on sentry/stalker instead. If you go for that robo first, you will not be able to out-produce AA and execute a proper timing attack against a Z who skips roaches and goes straight to muta, like me.
-People need to again stop bringing up the "well in bw..." argument, its not fucking bw.
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Overall P balance would be better if colossus got a nerf and stalker got boosted a bit,but that doesnt solve this particular problem still
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Ground is viable, P's just need to stop opening with that stupid robo opening blind and spend the gas on sentry/stalker instead.
Sentry/Stalker massed suck vs any other units in the zerg arsenal. All zerg would have to do is switch or see this and not even bother with muta.
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On March 15 2010 08:40 pzea469 wrote:Show nested quote +Ground is viable, P's just need to stop opening with that stupid robo opening blind and spend the gas on sentry/stalker instead. Sentry/Stalker massed suck vs any other units in the zerg arsenal. All zerg would have to do is switch or see this and not even bother with muta.
The immortal opening is meant to counter roach openings, of which I completely skip if I see a robo opening, effectively making the initial P army useless.
No one said you have to attack with the sentry stalkers immediately, why is everyone so damn hyper aggressive? Every single P i encounter push and I make just enough and exactly the right mix to defend it. I may lose my nat, but P loses his entire army and I just waltz into his base with muta. Even if I can't end it right there, P lost way more than I did. Having a bunch of sentries on hand is never a bad thing, its incredibly annoying with the never ending guardian shield and forcefields. Properly executed, with many sentries i can never get a good attack off on the P army because the bulk of the Z army in sc2 is much slower (hydra/roach). Also, you can take advantage of the spell casting micro easy button that has made an appearance in sc2, you simply select all your sentries and each cast will only make one sentry cast the desired spell at a time.
My suggestion is this, build only an obs from the robo first to see the tech route of the Z. This way, you're not stuck with the wrong mix right off the bat + any cute burrowing roaches will die. Sentry stalker zealot does just fine against Z especially if you have enough sentries to make forcefield walls as your sentry/stalker/zealot rips apart half the Z army at a time. a P i played who I felt was MUCH better than me abused this to no end. I had more than him yet I couldn't touch him as my army was slowly whittled down piece by piece.
Here's a thought, make your immortal LATER instead of OPENING with it to try to end the game!
The rock paper scissors begins.
Take home message: stop trying to end the game with your first timing push, P's.
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The problem is that there are openings against which you *need* be aggressive. If the Z does hatch expand before pool and you don't push, you're now playing from a severe econ disadvantage, as you simply can't safely expand as early as the Z did. This is doubly true of fast expo into fast lair type builds, which put the zerg even on tech and ahead on econ unless you punish them for their greediness.
The point of a ZI type push is not to necessarily *kill* the Z outright - it's to punish overgreedy zergs and guarantee that you enter midgame with similar expansion timing - as if they expo too early, you just kill it and make them try again. And the problem is, the timing window for this sort of thing is pretty narrow - it's not like you can stop and build 3 cannons to prevent ling backstabs and an observer to check on their tech and *then* push - by that point they'll have hydras or mutas, and you can't do anything anymore.
My experience is that P needs to be either pretty aggressive - 2gate, ZI timing push, etc. - to force the Z to play somewhat defensively and not just power in the opening... or they need to play super greedy themselves. And the latter is pretty risky as well. So saying "don't be so aggressive, you don't need to push early" sounds all well and good in theory... but in practice, having no plan for early aggression is just asking to play out the rest of the game with a severe econ disadvantage, which doesn't work very well either.
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lol zomgzergrush "cannons were never meant to stop mutas themselves, just like in SC1"
then
"People need to again stop bringing up the "well in bw..." argument, its not fucking bw."
-_-
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When i tried fe, with 2 cannons it worked sometimes, and sometimes not. roach rushs just runs over fe with cannons, or speedlings. So i agree that cannons is pretty weak atm.
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On March 15 2010 09:19 Fayth wrote:
lol zomgzergrush "cannons were never meant to stop mutas themselves, just like in SC1"
then
"People need to again stop bringing up the "well in bw..." argument, its not fucking bw."
-_-
I was wondering if anyone would catch that lol. Cannons at the very least are more similar to their bw counterparts than phoenixes.
My point is to use them as support for your other units. That's still RTS 101. I think we're still quite a ways away from an FE build, though. As of now, cannon FE has only been somewhat viable map specific, i.e. where you can wall off your nat with a few buildings and place a cannon out of roach range.
On March 15 2010 09:05 Steve496 wrote:
The problem is that there are openings against which you *need* be aggressive. If the Z does hatch expand before pool and you don't push, you're now playing from a severe econ disadvantage, as you simply can't safely expand as early as the Z did. This is doubly true of fast expo into fast lair type builds, which put the zerg even on tech and ahead on econ unless you punish them for their greediness.
The point of a ZI type push is not to necessarily *kill* the Z outright - it's to punish overgreedy zergs and guarantee that you enter midgame with similar expansion timing - as if they expo too early, you just kill it and make them try again. And the problem is, the timing window for this sort of thing is pretty narrow - it's not like you can stop and build 3 cannons to prevent ling backstabs and an observer to check on their tech and *then* push - by that point they'll have hydras or mutas, and you can't do anything anymore.
My experience is that P needs to be either pretty aggressive - 2gate, ZI timing push, etc. - to force the Z to play somewhat defensively and not just power in the opening... or they need to play super greedy themselves. And the latter is pretty risky as well. So saying "don't be so aggressive, you don't need to push early" sounds all well and good in theory... but in practice, having no plan for early aggression is just asking to play out the rest of the game with a severe econ disadvantage, which doesn't work very well either.
I agree there are SOME cases where they should, i.e. 13 hatch. I said P dont NEED to be aggressive. I know that is the mentality of all P nowadays since I see the same play every game. The problem is that P are doing the same thing no matter what Z is doing and Z is simply reacting to what P is doing. P's too often push out with their ZI builds when they're not even able to. They proceed to possibly kill Z nat, lose their army to muta, then their bae, then cry IMBA MUTAS!! Tip: killing the Z nat, especially one that is just hauling a bit of gas, is not worth the price of losing your entire army. Least that's the case in my games. The inherent problem is applying that pressure in the first place can land the P with 0 army. Rather than applying pressure and losing your army, you can hold onto it, use it to expo, etc. Z sees what you have and needs to have enough to cover it, even if you don't push.
13 hatch imo is suicide nowadays with the advent of ZI and is a completely different story than what I do. I equate the risk of 13 hatching to old school 14 nex and 3 hatch before pool. In this situation there's not a whole lot of room for "punishing" but pretty much only either "killing" or "losing econ completely"
I strongly disagree with 2gate. I don't think that this is even viable anymore. An analogy: 9 pooling vs a mech terran with a wall. I say this because Z can scout it in time and proceed to move to roaches without changing their build very much at all.
Nowadays my entire build route is dictated by what P is doing and if P pushes out prematurely to "try to apply pressure" they lose their army followed by their base.
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On March 15 2010 03:00 Defrag wrote:
Fayth, that would be terrible, as zerg already have massive problems with getting into base of turtling protoss, even with huge eco/army advantage.
I recently played with a protoss player ( platinum obv ) who got his main / natural destroyed, but in the meantime he sneaked out and turreted two more expos with like 20 turrets each, and held 4-5 HT's in each for defense.
I was limit capped and couldnt get in lol. Less static defense = funnier games.
With a boost to bunkers/sunkens ( those are terrible thou )/ photo cannons the game is going to change into playing Human of Warcraf3, where u would FE and place 10 towers that were unkillable with armor upgrade.
the problem with the cannons could be that they are too smart. In sc1, if you have a lot of cannons they all shoot the 1 target, in sc2 the game is smart enough to only fire enough cannon shots on the first target to kill it and move on to the next target more efficiently.
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If you wanted to make a small change to the phoenix to try and strengthen its role against the muta...probably the easiest fix is +1 armor.
That greatly reduces the splash damage they take (which is often a major issue).
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I agree that phoenix are counters to mutas. However, the efficiency of phoenix v. muta decreases as muta numbers increase, even with sentry support. the reason is because the muta bounce, even if lowered by the guardian shield, will always do at least 1 damage. Meaning, as the muta numbers get larger, the damage output of the muta splash becomes much more significant to the phoenix. I can't do any testing right now, but if someone would just do some testing of straight up muta v. phoenix battles and muta v. phoenix+sentries battles and see exactly which side is favored at what supply value armies.
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On March 15 2010 09:35 radiumz0rz wrote:
the problem with the cannons could be that they are too smart. In sc1, if you have a lot of cannons they all shoot the 1 target, in sc2 the game is smart enough to only fire enough cannon shots on the first target to kill it and move on to the next target more efficiently.
Have you tested this? I haven't actually tried with photon cannons, but with everything else with non-instant damage that I've tried this isn't the case (roaches, hydras, marauders, stalkers, etc.)
Stuff with instant damage won't overkill because you can't target a dead unit.
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On March 15 2010 09:28 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 09:05 Steve496 wrote:
The problem is that there are openings against which you *need* be aggressive. If the Z does hatch expand before pool and you don't push, you're now playing from a severe econ disadvantage, as you simply can't safely expand as early as the Z did. This is doubly true of fast expo into fast lair type builds, which put the zerg even on tech and ahead on econ unless you punish them for their greediness.
The point of a ZI type push is not to necessarily *kill* the Z outright - it's to punish overgreedy zergs and guarantee that you enter midgame with similar expansion timing - as if they expo too early, you just kill it and make them try again. And the problem is, the timing window for this sort of thing is pretty narrow - it's not like you can stop and build 3 cannons to prevent ling backstabs and an observer to check on their tech and *then* push - by that point they'll have hydras or mutas, and you can't do anything anymore.
My experience is that P needs to be either pretty aggressive - 2gate, ZI timing push, etc. - to force the Z to play somewhat defensively and not just power in the opening... or they need to play super greedy themselves. And the latter is pretty risky as well. So saying "don't be so aggressive, you don't need to push early" sounds all well and good in theory... but in practice, having no plan for early aggression is just asking to play out the rest of the game with a severe econ disadvantage, which doesn't work very well either. I agree there are SOME cases where they should, i.e. 13 hatch. I said P dont NEED to be aggressive. I know that is the mentality of all P nowadays since I see the same play every game. The problem is that P are doing the same thing no matter what Z is doing and Z is simply reacting to what P is doing. P's too often push out with their ZI builds when they're not even able to. They proceed to possibly kill Z nat, lose their army to muta, then their bae, then cry IMBA MUTAS!! Tip: killing the Z nat, especially one that is just hauling a bit of gas, is not worth the price of losing your entire army. Least that's the case in my games. The inherent problem is applying that pressure in the first place can land the P with 0 army. Rather than applying pressure and losing your army, you can hold onto it, use it to expo, etc. Z sees what you have and needs to have enough to cover it, even if you don't push. 13 hatch imo is suicide nowadays with the advent of ZI and is a completely different story than what I do. I equate the risk of 13 hatching to old school 14 nex and 3 hatch before pool. In this situation there's not a whole lot of room for "punishing" but pretty much only either "killing" or "losing econ completely" I strongly disagree with 2gate. I don't think that this is even viable anymore. An analogy: 9 pooling vs a mech terran with a wall. I say this because Z can scout it in time and proceed to move to roaches without changing their build very much at all. Nowadays my entire build route is dictated by what P is doing and if P pushes out prematurely to "try to apply pressure" they lose their army followed by their base.
To clarify: I'm not going to argue that P *always* needs to be aggressive. My point is that P always needs the *ability* to be aggressive unless they're doing something pretty economically greedy to guarantee that they match the Z in that respect. And as there's a fairly severe scouting asymmetry in the early game (my scout lives until your first two lings pop, your scout survives until I get something with range - which is usually much later) it can be very hard to figure out what the zerg is doing in time to adjust.
For instance, consider the 13 hatch opening. Yes, if you're doing 13 hatch into lair or 13 hatch into roaches or some fairly normal followup like that, you will probably die to a ZI push. But if you just go 2 base mass lings, you can run over the ZI player with relative ease. And the two builds look virtually identical up to the point where your probe scout dies. And by the time I can get an observer to you to figure out which it is, I've either a) focused too much on robo units and am vulnerable to getting run over by lings, or b) have focused too much on gateway units and can't get enough immortals in time to push you before you have lair tech. So 13 hatch is a bad opening for you only in that it puts you at somewhat of a disadvantage if I guess correctly, and a pretty significant advantage if I guess wrong. So you certainly have "safer" openings, but it's not like 13 hatch is totally unviable either - it's just riskier.
Really, I think you've articulated the problem pretty well - you can scout the P and respond to whatever he does, and the P has a much harder time doing the reverse. I've yet to find an opening build that lets me smoothly transition into a counter for whatever the Z is doing (or might be) based on the limited scouting information I have. Which is not to say that such a thing doesn't exist, but it recently it really feels like the goal of P in the first 10 minutes of a PvZ is to survive without being too far behind. And given that the matchup doesn't really get any easier as the game goes on, this does make for sort of a tough matchup at times.
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I think investing in an earlier stalker will help in discouraging Z from getting free info about what you're up to as P. Essentially what P are doing nowadays are the equivalent of bw 1 base tech plays except without a dragoon to shoo away the ovie. The whole point of 1 base tech is still relevant to sc2; that is, z needs to be in the dark and forced to pull a mediocre one size fits all build that is just "meh" in every direction so that they do not gain an advantage over your 1 base.
Also following a stalker by just enough units at ramp so that a ling can't slip by. I've had an incredibly easy time in this matchup lately just because I can see the gate count as well as the robo/lack therof. The robo information is the most useful; once I see it I almost always survive easily.
If I could not see the robo or lack thereof, I would be incredibly nervous and would need to invest in an overseer as my first gas use after lair in order to feel comfortable as well as more sunken/units. Both of which are very undesirable at said timing during any 13 pool -> lair n expo build.
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The problem is, if you get a stalker early enough to chase out the overlord before starting the robo, the robo is now delayed by the full build time of a stalker, plus a little extra to chase out the overlord. And that means, for instance, it's too late to:
1) Defend an early roach rush
2) Get Immortals out fast enough to hit the zerg before they have lair tech.
Like, the roach rush arrives right about the time you can theoretically get an immortal out. If you delay it by 30 seconds, you're now looking at defending a roach rush with zealot/stalker/sentry... which can get ugly. The ZI push, without waiting for a stalker to clear scouting - already arrives after the hydra den/spire starts building. So I would argue that the simple fact that you don't see a robo until after a stalker pops out *already* means you're safe from any early push assuming you're going anything reasonable in your own base. It also, as a note, means your first observer is that much later, making your blind period of having no idea what the Z is doing is that much longer.
Again, I'm not going to argue that the matchup is unwinnable - it's not. I actually win it about half the time. But there's some very real issues with the early game dynamic that mean that a lot of my wins owe quite a bit to luck - I happened to pick an opening that doesn't die horribly to what the Z is doing. And I think the game would benefit by making the opening a little less volatile in that respect.
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didnt read all of it but you guys gonna stop theory crafting and play some games, upload the replays then discuss what happened
what sounds good on paper can be very different in a real game
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On March 15 2010 11:37 Steve496 wrote:
The problem is, if you get a stalker early enough to chase out the overlord before starting the robo, the robo is now delayed by the full build time of a stalker, plus a little extra to chase out the overlord. And that means, for instance, it's too late to:
1) Defend an early roach rush
2) Get Immortals out fast enough to hit the zerg before they have lair tech.
Like, the roach rush arrives right about the time you can theoretically get an immortal out. If you delay it by 30 seconds, you're now looking at defending a roach rush with zealot/stalker/sentry... which can get ugly. The ZI push, without waiting for a stalker to clear scouting - already arrives after the hydra den/spire starts building. So I would argue that the simple fact that you don't see a robo until after a stalker pops out *already* means you're safe from any early push assuming you're going anything reasonable in your own base. It also, as a note, means your first observer is that much later, making your blind period of having no idea what the Z is doing is that much longer.
Again, I'm not going to argue that the matchup is unwinnable - it's not. I actually win it about half the time. But there's some very real issues with the early game dynamic that mean that a lot of my wins owe quite a bit to luck - I happened to pick an opening that doesn't die horribly to what the Z is doing. And I think the game would benefit by making the opening a little less volatile in that respect.
dropping 50 gas on a stalker does not cost you 30 seconds worth of gas mining time... If need be, gas a tad bit earlier. If the build is not working, don't jump to the conclusion that the game is broken. Rather, adjust your build. More on this later.
Also, your probe scout comes in plenty early enough to notice the roach warren or lack thereof if it is in fact a roach rush. Roach rushes need the warren to come down after pool pops. Your core isn't even close to being done at that point. That is plenty of scout time. Also, send a second probe if need be, isn't too hard to dodge a ling outside of creep. If you think it's impossible to scout zerg just because your first scout probe dies, I challenge you to watch the replay afterwards and say with 100% certainty there was no way to scout the z after the initial probe scout. Face it, this isn't bw anymore, the probe scout won't live forever and see exactly what the zerg is doing the first time around. Adjust your play.
From the viewpoint of a zerg (others may react differently, this is just how I think):
If my drone can't see a robo, I can't make any assumptions. If there is a robo, then ZI is gonna kill me if I don't skip roaches. If there is no robo then Z is gonna be screwed if he goes straight for muta vs a zeal stalker sentry push. Note that most zergs don't even bother to drone scout at which point shooing the ovie in time is even easier. You don't even need to kill it before you plop down the robo, you can plop it down far away while shooting down the ovie. Better yet, proxy the robo, especially if you are opting for a ZI push.
I think Ps gotta study Z builds more closely and figure out timings from replays. I think there is much understanding that Ps need to learn about the finer details of Z builds and timings.
After dying repeatedly to ZI and voidray rushes, instead of crying imba and asserting that the game is broken, I did my replay homework on my own and that is how I figured out how to craft and time my build to block voidrays and ZI. Literally all it took is marking the time X should arrive or when I should expect see Y building go down and formulating a build to counter X when it reaches my front door. A trick to do this is to relate the ENEMY timings to YOUR supply. That's right, factor in ENEMY supply timings AS WELL AS your own for your build choices.
99% of the time a given scenario is not impossible to solve. If you're really having trouble with your builds still, try to get a hold of other people's replays, preferably those of people who are probably better than yourself. That's how I got some pointers of how to make my builds better.
Main detail I see with this current view though, you swear Z is automatically going to roach rush. You can spot a roach warren or 1st roach plenty early enough to know if this is the case or not. Again, refer to my spiel about scouting earlier in this post.
EDIT:
Sorry, got confused with all the other conversations going on, but wasn't this a thread about cannons? On a cannon-related note, you guys should try opening 2 gate pressure -> cannon expo like the recent sc2 liquibition!
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On March 15 2010 15:48 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 11:37 Steve496 wrote:
The problem is, if you get a stalker early enough to chase out the overlord before starting the robo, the robo is now delayed by the full build time of a stalker, plus a little extra to chase out the overlord. And that means, for instance, it's too late to:
1) Defend an early roach rush
2) Get Immortals out fast enough to hit the zerg before they have lair tech.
Like, the roach rush arrives right about the time you can theoretically get an immortal out. If you delay it by 30 seconds, you're now looking at defending a roach rush with zealot/stalker/sentry... which can get ugly. The ZI push, without waiting for a stalker to clear scouting - already arrives after the hydra den/spire starts building. So I would argue that the simple fact that you don't see a robo until after a stalker pops out *already* means you're safe from any early push assuming you're going anything reasonable in your own base. It also, as a note, means your first observer is that much later, making your blind period of having no idea what the Z is doing is that much longer.
Again, I'm not going to argue that the matchup is unwinnable - it's not. I actually win it about half the time. But there's some very real issues with the early game dynamic that mean that a lot of my wins owe quite a bit to luck - I happened to pick an opening that doesn't die horribly to what the Z is doing. And I think the game would benefit by making the opening a little less volatile in that respect. dropping 50 gas on a stalker does not cost you 30 seconds worth of gas mining time... If need be, gas a tad bit earlier. If the build is not working, don't jump to the conclusion that the game is broken. Rather, adjust your build. More on this later. Also, your probe scout comes in plenty early enough to notice the roach warren or lack thereof if it is in fact a roach rush. Roach rushes need the warren to come down after pool pops. Your core isn't even close to being done at that point. That is plenty of scout time. Also, send a second probe if need be, isn't too hard to dodge a ling outside of creep. If you think it's impossible to scout zerg just because your first scout probe dies, I challenge you to watch the replay afterwards and say with 100% certainty there was no way to scout the z after the initial probe scout. Face it, this isn't bw anymore, the probe scout won't live forever and see exactly what the zerg is doing the first time around. Adjust your play. From the viewpoint of a zerg (others may react differently, this is just how I think):If my drone can't see a robo, I can't make any assumptions. If there is a robo, then ZI is gonna kill me if I don't skip roaches. If there is no robo then Z is gonna be screwed if he goes straight for muta vs a zeal stalker sentry push. Note that most zergs don't even bother to drone scout at which point shooing the ovie in time is even easier. You don't even need to kill it before you plop down the robo, you can plop it down far away while shooting down the ovie. Better yet, proxy the robo, especially if you are opting for a ZI push. I think Ps gotta study Z builds more closely and figure out timings from replays. I think there is much understanding that Ps need to learn about the finer details of Z builds and timings. After dying repeatedly to ZI and voidray rushes, instead of crying imba and asserting that the game is broken, I did my replay homework on my own and that is how I figured out how to craft and time my build to block voidrays and ZI. Literally all it takes is marking the time X should arrive and formulating a build to counter X. 99% of the time a given scenario is not impossible to solve.Main detail I see with this current view though, you swear Z is automatically going to roach rush. You can spot a roach warren or 1st roach plenty early enough to know if this is the case or not. Again, refer to my spiel about scouting earlier in this post.
Even if Z puts down a warren, its perfectly possible for him to eat a 150 mineral deficit and go lair to muta regardless while P prepares for the wrong thing. If the probe dies before the warren is done? Cool beans, Z fakes P out for even less.
That's the entire problem: P needs to guess and guess right. There's very little reaction room. Between those first two lings and your first obs/phoenix, P sees nothing. Normally that wasn't terrible because you'd have warpgates to let you frontload your production to match your current need, as well as provide reinforcements at the site of a push. Now that's gone.
Just by way of example: prior, you could toss out an early sentry to have it build energy with the understanding that if your opponent went roach or ling all in, you could warp in another 2-3 sentries, ff the ramp for an entire minute (if not longer), and get 2 immortals or a bunch of zealots out to beat back the push. Now, that's simply not an option.
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On March 15 2010 16:11 L wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 15:48 zomgzergrush wrote:On March 15 2010 11:37 Steve496 wrote:
The problem is, if you get a stalker early enough to chase out the overlord before starting the robo, the robo is now delayed by the full build time of a stalker, plus a little extra to chase out the overlord. And that means, for instance, it's too late to:
1) Defend an early roach rush
2) Get Immortals out fast enough to hit the zerg before they have lair tech.
Like, the roach rush arrives right about the time you can theoretically get an immortal out. If you delay it by 30 seconds, you're now looking at defending a roach rush with zealot/stalker/sentry... which can get ugly. The ZI push, without waiting for a stalker to clear scouting - already arrives after the hydra den/spire starts building. So I would argue that the simple fact that you don't see a robo until after a stalker pops out *already* means you're safe from any early push assuming you're going anything reasonable in your own base. It also, as a note, means your first observer is that much later, making your blind period of having no idea what the Z is doing is that much longer.
Again, I'm not going to argue that the matchup is unwinnable - it's not. I actually win it about half the time. But there's some very real issues with the early game dynamic that mean that a lot of my wins owe quite a bit to luck - I happened to pick an opening that doesn't die horribly to what the Z is doing. And I think the game would benefit by making the opening a little less volatile in that respect. dropping 50 gas on a stalker does not cost you 30 seconds worth of gas mining time... If need be, gas a tad bit earlier. If the build is not working, don't jump to the conclusion that the game is broken. Rather, adjust your build. More on this later. Also, your probe scout comes in plenty early enough to notice the roach warren or lack thereof if it is in fact a roach rush. Roach rushes need the warren to come down after pool pops. Your core isn't even close to being done at that point. That is plenty of scout time. Also, send a second probe if need be, isn't too hard to dodge a ling outside of creep. If you think it's impossible to scout zerg just because your first scout probe dies, I challenge you to watch the replay afterwards and say with 100% certainty there was no way to scout the z after the initial probe scout. Face it, this isn't bw anymore, the probe scout won't live forever and see exactly what the zerg is doing the first time around. Adjust your play. From the viewpoint of a zerg (others may react differently, this is just how I think):If my drone can't see a robo, I can't make any assumptions. If there is a robo, then ZI is gonna kill me if I don't skip roaches. If there is no robo then Z is gonna be screwed if he goes straight for muta vs a zeal stalker sentry push. Note that most zergs don't even bother to drone scout at which point shooing the ovie in time is even easier. You don't even need to kill it before you plop down the robo, you can plop it down far away while shooting down the ovie. Better yet, proxy the robo, especially if you are opting for a ZI push. I think Ps gotta study Z builds more closely and figure out timings from replays. I think there is much understanding that Ps need to learn about the finer details of Z builds and timings. After dying repeatedly to ZI and voidray rushes, instead of crying imba and asserting that the game is broken, I did my replay homework on my own and that is how I figured out how to craft and time my build to block voidrays and ZI. Literally all it takes is marking the time X should arrive and formulating a build to counter X. 99% of the time a given scenario is not impossible to solve.Main detail I see with this current view though, you swear Z is automatically going to roach rush. You can spot a roach warren or 1st roach plenty early enough to know if this is the case or not. Again, refer to my spiel about scouting earlier in this post. Even if Z puts down a warren, its perfectly possible for him to eat a 150 mineral deficit and go lair to muta regardless while P prepares for the wrong thing. If the probe dies before the warren is done? Cool beans, Z fakes P out for even less. That's the entire problem: P needs to guess and guess right. There's very little reaction room. Between those first two lings and your first obs/phoenix, P sees nothing. Normally that wasn't terrible because you'd have warpgates to let you frontload your production to match your current need, as well as provide reinforcements at the site of a push. Now that's gone. Just by way of example: prior, you could toss out an early sentry to have it build energy with the understanding that if your opponent went roach or ling all in, you could warp in another 2-3 sentries, ff the ramp for an entire minute (if not longer), and get 2 immortals or a bunch of zealots out to beat back the push. Now, that's simply not an option.
Most everything being discussed here is under the premise that only P needs to guess and Z doesn't. MAKE Z guess! Stop letting the ovie live for so damn long. So the early stalker might eff up your current build. CHANGE your build then, proxy your tech. Be creative! I wouldn't be advocating any of this if it wasn't what personally made things difficult for myself. Quite honestly, most of the games I lose were to a straight mix of zealot/stalker/sentry with no immortals. Also these P's don't push just to try to kill me and the unit composition+count they have is such that I can't chase it down and kill it all if hes retreating. That may just be my play style that loses to that kind of thing but there it is.
Why the hell can't you try to send a second probe before your phoenix/obs? P wont see crap if it doesn't try. Watch your replays, I guarantee theres many Z that cut corners by not making any more than the first pair of ling, of which you can easily scout past. You don't have to wait for phoenix or obs to make another round of scouting, your probe might get a whiff of the unit composition or even get to see the tech buildings.
Again, aim to adjust your play and build to solve your difficulties you are encountering rather than asserting the game is broken. Study your replays, look to find the solution rather than state the game is broken.
Finally, this is a cannon thread -.-
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EPT
