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On March 15 2010 03:00 Defrag wrote:
Fayth, that would be terrible, as zerg already have massive problems with getting into base of turtling protoss, even with huge eco/army advantage.
I recently played with a protoss player ( platinum obv ) who got his main / natural destroyed, but in the meantime he sneaked out and turreted two more expos with like 20 turrets each, and held 4-5 HT's in each for defense.
I was limit capped and couldnt get in lol. Less static defense = funnier games.
With a boost to bunkers/sunkens ( those are terrible thou )/ photo cannons the game is going to change into playing Human of Warcraf3, where u would FE and place 10 towers that were unkillable with armor upgrade.
Why didn't you get brood lords
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United States7166 Posts
if you have phoenixes you should be able to fend harasses anyway w/o guardian shield. in smaller numbers mutas suck awfully vs phoenixes, there's no way he'll just take your phoenixes on. i meant for like your push, you use guardian shield to support.
if you want you can make a cannon or 2 in your mineral lines as well which are also good vs mutas in small numbers
and like i said, do a timing attack and dont let him mass up a ton of mutas, and even if he does if you push with guardian shield like ive said several times, than really negates the effects of bounce
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United States7166 Posts
On March 15 2010 03:25 Fayth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 03:22 Zelniq wrote:On March 15 2010 03:18 Muirhead wrote:Well I'm 12th plat so OK but not great, and I haven't had much luck with phoenix vs mass muta. But it's true I haven't used them in conjunction with sentries much... worth a try though it kind of cuts into the mobility of the phoenix  I'd really like to hear some good Zs comments on what they view the best counter to mass muta to be as someone who has a lot of experience going mutas vs protoss, i gave you already 2 of the general build ideas already in the first post i made above. you usually dont want to just sit on your ass and let him mass a huge number of mutalisks because theyre so mobile and your bases will be spread out that it becomes increasingly harder to defend them all. timing attacks are more effective this is the thing, you can't defend ur base against mutalisks while moving out, at least from what I've heard... unlike in broodwar
the zerg base will die WAY faster to your ground army than to some mutalisks attacking yours. this is not a problem for protoss. if you do the timing attack properly he wont have nearly enough mutalisks for this to be a problem
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On March 15 2010 03:27 Muirhead wrote:
Well it doesn't matter if you can't defend your base if you can destroy his... if you push early enough cannons will do it anyways.
This is stupid, You are saying kill him in 10-15 min or you auto lose
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Do you play people who open with phoenix or people who get the stargate in response to your spire?
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The thing is zerg can build mutas much faster then phoenixes, so he will have a number atv over your units 9/10 times. Splash would help balance this out I think and help alleviate some of protoss's anti air issues.
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I think cannons are the issue, but that they're fine as is so long as you have enough of them. Without cannons, you cannot possibly defend against mutas bouncing back from base to base, given the terribly slow speed of sentries and the difficulty of mass producing phoenixes.
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United States7166 Posts
maybe watch some of lorelei's old replays when he was playing P. he had no problems vs mutalisk'ing players and you may understand how to properly use phoenixes and timing attacks to defeat them easily. if he does indeed switch back to P soon then you may be getting some more replays to help you if you cannot figure this out on your own
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There is definitely something missing in Protoss anti-air as it is anyway, even if phoenixes counter mutas like you say Zelniq. Massing phoenixes as the only way to counter mutas is dumb, as is trying to outmacro a zerg who is any good. He has way more options than you and can tech switch much faster. The phoenixes are not as effective enough to make up for this.
I'm rank 1/2 gold and the only thing that I struggle with is this muta crap. It's apparent from this thread there isn't much of an answer other than massing phoenixes. What I've been doing is trying to mass stalker with sentry guardian shield and it does the same job as phoenixes off 1 stargate yet once he reaches critical mass its just hit and run everywhere and me wasting money on cannons while he expands.
Mass sentry/stalker > Gets demolished eventually by mass muta
Mass phoenix > Tech switch to make your stargate tech useless or simply outmacros you with muta/ling.
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United States7166 Posts
i do agree and have said before in other threads that protosses should have a better ground based options vs mutas. but im saying for the time being phoenixes are more than adequate for crushing muta builds. yes, crushing.
like in bw, protoss not only has corsairs but archons and stronger psi storms.
in the same light, or even more-so, zerg should not be forced to get air units to deal with colossuses either, as zerg ground really has 0 options now vs any army consisting of some colossuses.
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Just make the Stalkers' attack the same as the Queen, one ground/ground and one ground/air with different damage and bonus. Wouldn't mess with Stalker as a ground unit, and wouldn't make them the ultimate anti-air either.
edit : dude... those videos are not representative at all. You will NEVER get 100 muta vs 100 nixes in one game, this is just one huge fight supposedly meant to show the balance, but all it does is feed the clueless. There are really too much details to be added to such air fights in a game that can make that particular video completely irrelevant.
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Man of course 100 phoenixs beat 100 mutas
The problem is that ~8 corsairs could beat 24 mutalisks and the same is not at all true for phoenixs
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On March 15 2010 02:23 Fayth wrote:
the only real counter to Mutas so far is Sentries, and well they're pretty much useless against every other units since they're mainly designed to be support units, they're also fairly slow... Ps either need a Corsair'ish type unit or better static defense...
that or a psi storm buff
Actually, sentries are pretty damn good against everything (if mixed with zealots) but they arent worth a damn against mutas unless the mutas just sit there and take damage. Think sc1, zvp, if mutas just sat there taking damage from an archon instead of running away and hitting other shit in the base, then all the counter you'd need is an archon. You'd never need to make sairs, archon would be more cost efficient
however muta CAN hit and run, so sentries cant do anything against them, phoenix can in low numbers vs low numbers, but making those = he does hydra switch = gg
On March 15 2010 03:42 love1another wrote:
I think cannons are the issue, but that they're fine as is so long as you have enough of them. Without cannons, you cannot possibly defend against mutas bouncing back from base to base, given the terribly slow speed of sentries and the difficulty of mass producing phoenixes.
3 cannons in each mineral line wont defend you from even 9-10 muta. Cannons go down so fast they might as well not be there
suppose however, for whatever reason, he sees the cannons and decides not to go for them?
Just attack pylons and tech structures all around your base, wait for sentries to catch up, giggle and run off.
On March 15 2010 04:19 Zelniq wrote:
i do agree and have said before in other threads that protosses should have a better ground based options vs mutas. but im saying for the time being phoenixes are more than adequate for crushing muta builds. yes, crushing.
like in bw, protoss not only has corsairs but archons and stronger psi storms.
in the same light, or even more-so, zerg should not be forced to get air units to deal with colossuses either, as zerg ground really has 0 options now vs any army consisting of some colossuses.
Zerg makes muta, you make phoenix (you have to open with this since it cant be a response, if you make phoenix in response, you wont have enough) zerg sees pheonix opening, makes no muta, makes hydra, you have no way to defend.
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Having played numerous PvZs as Protoss i can write about my experiences so far.
First of all YOU need phoenix to counter Mutas of a good Z player at the 6-7 muta harass ( cause of the mobility of mutas u need Phoenix to slow them down).
I have tried massing sentries,massing sentries along stalkers,massing phoenix and nothing worked.Always the Muta won and sometimes i just lost all my units and he was left with 1-2 mutas but ofc since he can outproduce me he can overrun me with speedlings while also building his muta army after that.
After a lot o lost games i found that having 4-5 phoenixes mixed along sentries/stalkers and ofc enough zealots to match his speedlings can easily win mutas.
What to do? First of all Make a wall with zealots and force fields so the speedlings or at least not all the speedlings surround your ranged units.Use Guardian shield at all times.Have sentries/stalkers and phoenixes in different groups and shift single click different mutas for each group.I havent lose a game vs Mutas yet when i have this mix of units.
You need very good scouting though because you want to be ahead.I tend to build a Stargate at some point even if he doesnt have Spire just to have it ready at the point he turns.If you wait to see Mutas and then build a Stargate its allready too late.
I have seen all this sentries > Mutas threads and i just laugh at them.Only way sentries > Mutas is Z player sitting back and watching the fight without having his hands on mouse and keyboard.Z player getting outmacroed up to that moment by the Protoss which is also a joke because defending an expo and main from Mutas with Sentries is the biggest YOKE ever.
PS.Only my opinion and experiences.
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Mutas are gay Vs Tand P /shrug lack off AA sure they will fix it down road is beta
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United States7166 Posts
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the last 4 posters please read my posts in this thread, and maybe try it out & realize that phoenixes are amazing vs mutalisks
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On March 15 2010 04:32 Zelniq wrote:
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the last 4 posters please read my posts in this thread, and maybe try it out & realize that phoenixes are amazing vs mutalisks
read my last edit, it doesnt matter how amazing they are against a small number of mutas.
The only way you can kill hydra (similar to sc1 in this aspect) is to get storm or colossus (reaver in sc1)
the only other way is to outmass him with zealots, which isnt gonna happen since you're gonna be on one base against his two.
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On March 15 2010 03:32 Whiplash wrote:
The thing is zerg can build mutas much faster then phoenixes, so he will have a number atv over your units 9/10 times. Splash would help balance this out I think and help alleviate some of protoss's anti air issues.
This. Queen production from 2 base is so far superior then phoenix production from two base its ridiculous. How is protoss supposed to match it? Just surprise! we have 5 stargates? I don't think so, in addition you can not invest that much in phoenix or else you will be over ridden with hydra/ling/ect
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EPT
