EPTPhoton Canons - Page 3
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DiTH
Greece116 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:26 Muirhead wrote: Man of course 100 phoenixs beat 100 mutas The problem is that ~8 corsairs could beat 24 mutalisks and the same is not at all true for phoenixs in what dimension  | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:34 TheAntZ wrote: read my last edit, it doesnt matter how amazing they are against a small number of mutas. read my posts? theyre great vs large numbers of phoenixes as well? timing attack also crushes muta builds so hard the zerg cant even get to large numbers anyway | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:36 Zelniq wrote: read my posts? theyre great vs large numbers of phoenixes as well? timing attack also crushes muta builds so hard the zerg cant even get to large numbers anyway thats just plain wrong. the 'timing attack' you're talking about is an allin THAT ONLY WORKS if he keeps going muta, when he could EASILY scout stargate and just make hydra sure, phoenix > muta if you open phoenix and he blindly pumps muta, but READ MY POST, doesnt HAVE to go muta after scouting stargate. easy as fuck to tech switch as zerg EDIT: also, heres something funny. Get 2-3 corruptors in the mix, and suddenly your air army overwhelms toss air army ridiculously easily | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:35 Retsukage wrote: This. Queen production from 2 base is so far superior then phoenix production from two base its ridiculous. How is protoss supposed to match it? Just surprise! we have 5 stargates? I don't think so, in addition you can not invest that much in phoenix or else you will be over ridden with hydra/ling/ect it is true maybe they should just make the larva that the queens spawns only be some units ? But the more hatch you have the more units unlock that those larva can be used for. So its not like omg i have a spire now i have 16 mutas .... lol | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:43 xnub wrote: it is true maybe they should just make the larva that the queens spawns only be some units ? But the more hatch you have the more units unlock that those larva can be used for. So its not like omg i have a spire now i have 16 mutas .... lol It'd be really confusing to macro as zerg though in that case | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:35 Retsukage wrote: This. Queen production from 2 base is so far superior then phoenix production from two base its ridiculous. How is protoss supposed to match it? Just surprise! we have 5 stargates? I don't think so, in addition you can not invest that much in phoenix or else you will be over ridden with hydra/ling/ect 1 stargate is enough just make some phoenixes like 4-6 and attack with a well balanced army at the right time, using observer to scout and help tell you when that is. zerg wont be able to get mass mutas in time nor have enough antiground to stop it either | ||
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qvka
Bulgaria15 Posts
you shold cast the storm over the shadow of the mutalisk not at the model,test it on singler player on your own air units,its quite different form broodwar Templars are also good against hydras and lings so you can focus on zealot immortal ground army. And dont ignore the fact that you have easier time scouting zerg base because of the limited detection.(unlike Broodwar)This should give you a time to prepare for whatever he is making  To summarize you open with robo for immortal and observer,if you scout him making spire throw down a stargate and citadel + Show Spoiler + you will need it anyway for the zealot charge, + Show Spoiler +the fact im ignoring collosus is because i think they are easily countered by corruptors and you dont want another air unit to deal with anyway Feel free to disagree with me but i think you should give it a try first :D, this is the first time im posting in the strategy forum btw i hope im helpful | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:44 TheAntZ wrote: It'd be really confusing to macro as zerg though in that case Ya but they need a bit more macro and not like its that much | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:37 TheAntZ wrote: Get 2-3 corruptors in the mix, and suddenly your air army overwhelms toss air army ridiculously easily i was going to respond to the rest of your post in a normal fashion until i saw this. clearly youre just making shit up now and not worth responding to | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:45 Zelniq wrote: 1 stargate is enough just make some phoenixes like 4-6 and attack with a well balanced army at the right time, using observer to scout and help tell you when that is. zerg wont be able to get mass mutas in time nor have enough antiground to stop it either ok, so not only do you open with stargate, you also somehow have an observer dual tech off of one base? or are you really implying that expanding is possible against a zerg before you move out with a considerable force? and if you're sinking that much gas into dual teching, getting phoenixes and obs, you are NOT gonna have a formidable ground force. Really, i hope you can prove me wrong with recent (read: this patch) replays of plat level players doing and dying to what you describe, but it simply sounds ridiculous On March 15 2010 04:48 Zelniq wrote: i was going to respond to the rest of your post in a normal fashion until i saw this. clearly youre just making shit up now and not worth responding to yeah, definitely making shit up, corruptors dont do shit against phoenixes, they're terrible vs air! On March 15 2010 04:46 qvka wrote: Try using high templars as back up to your phoenixes.You can cast few storms in less than a second and mutas will have hard time sniping now without stacking.+ Show Spoiler + you shold cast the storm over the shadow of the mutalisk not at the model,test it on singler player on your own air units,its quite different form broodwar Templars are also good against hydras and lings so you can focus on zealot immortal ground army. And dont ignore the fact that you have easier time scouting zerg base because of the limited detection.(unlike Broodwar)This should give you a time to prepare for whatever he is making To summarize you open with robo for immortal and observer,if you scout him making spire throw down a stargate and citadel + Show Spoiler + you will need it anyway for the zealot charge, + Show Spoiler +the fact im ignoring collosus is because i think they are easily countered by corruptors and you dont want another air unit to deal with anyway Feel free to disagree with me but i think you should give it a try first :D, this is the first time im posting in the strategy forum btw i hope im helpful I dont understand how you're getting the gas for all this off of 1 base | ||
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Defrag
Poland414 Posts
I got broodlords, but they die to storms and few phoenixes. Hit and run, and they are 2 slow to do anything. | ||
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Defrag
Poland414 Posts
On March 15 2010 03:32 Whiplash wrote: The thing is zerg can build mutas much faster then phoenixes, so he will have a number atv over your units 9/10 times. Splash would help balance this out I think and help alleviate some of protoss's anti air issues. This is completetly off the numbers. Without an expansion zerg's larva spawn will be way faster then he can build mutalisks ( talking about regural one, not even with queen ). Each mutalist costs 100 gas, you cant effictevely play mutas if you dont have expansion. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:52 Defrag wrote: This is completetly off the numbers. Without an expansion zerg's larva spawn will be way faster then he can build mutalisks ( talking about regural one, not even with queen ). Each mutalist costs 100 gas, you cant effictevely play mutas if you dont have expansion. why would zerg not have an expansion when its impossible for protoss to punish a zerg FE after pool? | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:52 Defrag wrote: This is completetly off the numbers. Without an expansion zerg's larva spawn will be way faster then he can build mutalisks ( talking about regural one, not even with queen ). Each mutalist costs 100 gas, you cant effictevely play mutas if you dont have expansion. Most zerg don't use much gas till they get to mutas /shrug they expand Zerglings with speeds and spine crawlers and maybe like 4 roachs and ya they fast expand | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
TheAntZ wrote: yeah, definitely making shit up, corruptors dont do shit against phoenixes, they're terrible vs air! get into a custom game with a friend. test any number of phoenixes vs corruptors, and youll notice even without micro phoenixes are evenly matched. with micro corruptors wont even kill phoenixes unless the numbers are so large they can 1 shot focus fire. otherwise the slow corruptors easily cannot catchup when the P pulls phoenixes away 1 by 1 (so incredibly fast). this also helps in terms of the P gets to decide when to fight battles. if theyre outnumbered can easily flee w/o any worries, but if phoenixes outnumber/match the corruptors, the corruptors are too slow and will take heavy losses | ||
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Defrag
Poland414 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:55 xnub wrote: Most zerg don't use much gas till they get to mutas /shrug they expand Zerglings with speeds and spine crawlers and maybe like 4 roachs and ya they fast expand Dont use gas, meaning they go zerglings instead of raoches*? If u see lack of roach warren, just 2/3 gate push with zaels and gg. Edit: fixed typo. | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:56 Zelniq wrote: get into a custom game with a friend. test any number of phoenixes vs corruptors, and youll notice even without micro phoenixes are evenly matched. with micro corruptors wont even kill phoenixes unless the numbers are so large they can 1 shot focus fire. otherwise the slow corruptors easily cannot catchup when the P pulls phoenixes away 1 by 1 (so incredibly fast). this also helps in terms of the P gets to decide when to fight battles. if theyre outnumbered can easily flee w/o any worries, but if phoenixes outnumber/match the corruptors, the corruptors are too slow and will take heavy losses a muta army by itself, or a corruptor army by itself, are not as effective as a mixed force of them against phoenix. Thats just how it felt after having tried phoenix openings for roughly 20-30 games EDIT: but again, thats not even the main problem. The problem is that if you open phoenix, you simply cant overwhelm the zerg if zerg decides not to go muta at all after scouting your stargate opening. If you open zealot/sentry mass off 3+ gates or robo as most do, then you cannot get the phoenixes fast enough (if you put up stargate same time you see a spire going up with your first obs) Until I see a replay of a platinum level player being beaten by a phoenix opening even after just going hydra/roach in response, if its obvious that the P in the replay doesnt simply vastly outclass the Z in terms of macro, I will wipe every post i have made in this thread, and replace it all with 'lol i suck' promise | ||
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
On March 15 2010 04:56 Defrag wrote: Dont use gas, meaning they go zerglings instead of raoches*? If u see lack of roach warren, just 2/3 gate push with zaels and gg. Edit: fixed typo. Notice the 4 roachs or so in the post they get it just don't pump out alot unless they see you do that. or what not | ||
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qvka
Bulgaria15 Posts
I dont understand how you're getting the gas for all this off of 1 base If you pump zealots and immortals you should have some gas to spare and im not saying you should stay on 1 base, im giving advice what army composition you should aim for + Show Spoiler + mutas are gas heavy too btw messed up the quote | ||
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