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Ok, couple of points here.
1) Stalker doesn't cost you 30 seconds of gas. True. But: a robo can be dropped the same time you can start building a stalker. So if you see a stalker and not a robo, that robo has been delayed by at least the build time of that stalker. You *could* drop it earlier - but that totally defeats the purpose of the stalker, as if you're going to let them see the robo before chasing out the scout, why bother chasing out the scout?
2) Yes, you can spot a fast roach rush. But there are delayed roach rush timings that can be dangerous - just like a protoss *can* chase your scout out and then get a robo, you *can* chase the scout out and then drop a roach warren. Or, alternately, drop the roach warren and then cancel it if you see a robo. Or even just let it finish - it's not like it cost you any gas to get.
3) Rescouting: yes, but only on certain maps. On any map other than Kulas Ravine or Scrapyard, any decent zerg just puts about 4 lings on his ramp, and you can't get through that with a probe. With a wide ramp or wide choke (like those two maps) - yes, you can rescout. And I do. And it helps. But that's sort of the exception rather than the rule.
4) Which brings us back to the problem I mentioned. Zerg has a much easier time keeping an eye on what P is doing than vice versa. It's easy to say "just adjust your build to what they're doing" but there's a lot of very plausible situations where you don't *know* what they're doing. And that makes it hard to adjust to.
5) I'm not claiming that Z is always going to roach rush, I'm just saying you need to be prepared for that eventuality. Just like Z needs to be prepared for P to ZI push. It's not that it's unbeatable by any stretch, it's simply that you need to have a build that can deal with that possibility, or it's not a very good build. Which leads to problems like: if my scout sees a fast roach warren, I *have* to build something - usually immortals - that can kill roaches. So I have to robo immediately on finishing my core, which means the Z gets to see my robo start. And at that point, he can simply... not build roaches. At which point I had to build at least one immortal that's not terribly useful against any other build you're doing, and you have a roach warren you're not immediately utilizing. Which of us comes off better in this exchange? I submit that the answer is the Z.
Again: I'm not arguing that the matchup is imbalanced or unfair. As I say: I have a decent win rate at it. But there *is* a scouting imbalance, and there *are* quite a few Z strats that can very easily kill you in the opening if not handled correctly. And not all of them can easily be identified in time. Hence the first 5-10 minutes of the game does feel a bit... unstable to me. Not necessarily unfair, but volatile. I play a lot of very short PvZs both ways. And maybe it's just that I'm missing some general build/strategy notion that can more easily handle all of Z's options. I won't discount that possibility. I'm simply trying to identify the problems I've been having with the matchup, so as to see if other people are having them as well, and if it might be the sign of some sort of issue. The answer may very well be no. But from my experience, it does feel like some changes to make the opening more stable might not be a terrible idea.
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On March 15 2010 16:41 Steve496 wrote:
Ok, couple of points here.
1) Stalker doesn't cost you 30 seconds of gas. True. But: a robo can be dropped the same time you can start building a stalker. So if you see a stalker and not a robo, that robo has been delayed by at least the build time of that stalker. You *could* drop it earlier - but that totally defeats the purpose of the stalker, as if you're going to let them see the robo before chasing out the scout, why bother chasing out the scout?
2) Yes, you can spot a fast roach rush. But there are delayed roach rush timings that can be dangerous - just like a protoss *can* chase your scout out and then get a robo, you *can* chase the scout out and then drop a roach warren. Or, alternately, drop the roach warren and then cancel it if you see a robo. Or even just let it finish - it's not like it cost you any gas to get.
3) Rescouting: yes, but only on certain maps. On any map other than Kulas Ravine or Scrapyard, any decent zerg just puts about 4 lings on his ramp, and you can't get through that with a probe. With a wide ramp or wide choke (like those two maps) - yes, you can rescout. And I do. And it helps. But that's sort of the exception rather than the rule.
4) Which brings us back to the problem I mentioned. Zerg has a much easier time keeping an eye on what P is doing than vice versa. It's easy to say "just adjust your build to what they're doing" but there's a lot of very plausible situations where you don't *know* what they're doing. And that makes it hard to adjust to.
5) I'm not claiming that Z is always going to roach rush, I'm just saying you need to be prepared for that eventuality. Just like Z needs to be prepared for P to ZI push. It's not that it's unbeatable by any stretch, it's simply that you need to have a build that can deal with that possibility, or it's not a very good build. Which leads to problems like: if my scout sees a fast roach warren, I *have* to build something - usually immortals - that can kill roaches. So I have to robo immediately on finishing my core, which means the Z gets to see my robo start. And at that point, he can simply... not build roaches. At which point I had to build at least one immortal that's not terribly useful against any other build you're doing, and you have a roach warren you're not immediately utilizing. Which of us comes off better in this exchange? I submit that the answer is the Z.
Again: I'm not arguing that the matchup is imbalanced or unfair. As I say: I have a decent win rate at it. But there *is* a scouting imbalance, and there *are* quite a few Z strats that can very easily kill you in the opening if not handled correctly. And not all of them can easily be identified in time. Hence the first 5-10 minutes of the game does feel a bit... unstable to me. Not necessarily unfair, but volatile. I play a lot of very short PvZs both ways. And maybe it's just that I'm missing some general build/strategy notion that can more easily handle all of Z's options. I won't discount that possibility. I'm simply trying to identify the problems I've been having with the matchup, so as to see if other people are having them as well, and if it might be the sign of some sort of issue. The answer may very well be no. But from my experience, it does feel like some changes to make the opening more stable might not be a terrible idea.
-ZvP threads right now are crying about lack of Z ability to scout and the inability to find a hidden observer, so I will leave the scouting discussion alone. For the record, I don't think that there is a scouting imbalance in either direction.
-From what you CAN scout, yes, on some maps the Z may wall off with ling. However, this brings me back to "identifying z builds." You should see the presence or lack of an expo relatively early (~20-22 supply at the latest on the Z side for a relatively passive build). That is another rather large piece of information.
-Yes, I DO have a much easier time scouting MOST P's early on because most LET me. The few that don't let me scout make my build more bs'ed and gamble-ie.
-I can prepare myself for a ZI push extremely easily because once I spot the robo I skip roach -> straight to muta and it is GG 90% of the time because I did my homework and formulated a good timing and build order.
****I know everyone wants their build to be timed extremely well and on point. However, everyone needs to weigh in some cost benefit and analyze the situation more in depth. I will refer to my own build (which needs work due to scenario B) for this discussion.
Scenario A: I see the robo, robo is not delayed and is right on time due to sans stalker. At this point, I have not even gotten to the point in my build where I wanna decide what I wanna do. From here, I know that I can skip my roaches altogether and tech quickly to muta, lay down nat spines, make some ling, etc. Other Zs may have their own counters, but the point is the cat is out of the bag. This is where I feel you Ps are coming from and are having difficulty. SCBW reference: Would you like an ovie to scout what you're doing during a 1 base tech play in SC1?
Scenario B: robo is delayed but stalker comes out. I no longer am sure which direction to go.
++I cannot assume there is going to be a robo because obviously I didn't see one. If there is no robo and I continue to go straight to muta, I will die to either a different push of stalker/zeal/sentry or get outmatched in AA due to the lack of gas commitment to immortal and robo. The fine line between muta vs ground production is very thin due to gas constraints. If you're rolling out in my face with all gas put into sentry stalker, that was cheaper gaswise than an equally matched muta force (discounting possible z ground of course, that was just to put things in perspective).
++If there is a robo that is delayed, I may possibly opt for roaches thinking perhaps of a warp gate rush of zeal/stalker/sentry, but the roaches will get countered hard by the immortal that I could only hope was not coming out.
###Your robo was X seconds later, but I had absolutely no idea in what direction to go. In essence, our positions were reversed as in Scenario A where it is not the P with the potentially incorrect unit combo, but the Z.
Scenario B and a half: there is a proxy robo and I assumed there was no robo due to my scout. I now have roaches out and die to ZI push.
A short history lesson: ZvP in early bw days were all simply rushing back and fourth early with aggressive 2 gate openings and such. At the time, no one even knew of the possibility of an FE that came YEARS later. I don't think people should be terribly surprised this early in life of sc2 to warrant the need for a change. After all,
SC2 != SC1 (Similar, though. But how similar is yet TBD)
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
How to Phoenix not counter mutalisks?
Phoenix has 5 (x 2 attacks) + 5 bonus to light = 20 damage to mutalisks.
Zerg has the opening advantage because of their unit production mechanics. They can store up unit production (larvae) to quickly build a large number of tech units. This is not different than SC1 corsair vs mutalisk opening in which the corsairs lose in a straight fight only because of sheer number of mutalisks.
I'd suggest the following opening:
* 2 cannons defending the mineral line
* a few sentries for guardian shield
* 1 stargate pumping out phoenix
* research + 1 air attack upgrade
Once the +1 attack upgrade finishes, take the fight to zerg.
Unlike air-to-air corsairs, phoenix threaten ground units with their graviton beam. With some micro to lift the queen and pick off drones, that can turn into a very serious threat.
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On March 15 2010 17:25 TossFloss wrote:
How to Phoenix not counter mutalisks?
Phoenix has 5 (x 2 attacks) + 5 bonus to light = 20 damage to mutalisks.
Zerg has the opening advantage because of their unit production mechanics. They can store up unit production (larvae) to quickly build a large number of tech units. This is not different than SC1 corsair vs mutalisk opening in which the corsairs lose in a straight fight only because of sheer number of mutalisks.
I'd suggest the following opening:
* 2 cannons defending the mineral line
* a few sentries for guardian shield
* 1 stargate pumping out phoenix
* research + 1 air attack upgrade
Once the +1 attack upgrade finishes, take the fight to zerg.
Unlike air-to-air corsairs, phoenix threaten ground units with their graviton beam. With some micro to lift the queen and pick off drones, that can turn into a very serious threat.
My only gripe with this is the "large number of tech units"
Yes, for the last time, Z get extra larvae, we know. But they won't be 50 mutalisks + hydralisks. Z users are limited by gas just like everyone else when it comes to tech units. I'd also recommend against +1 air attack upgrade. That's better spent in another phoenix IMO, specially that early in the game plus the whole 1 base gas thing.
Day9 did a bit about his thoughts about phoenix. The trick is to have enough of them, ~5-6+ continued production as you see fit. As a Z user, having half your army lifted away while a small P army cuts mine in half is not fun. Nor is losing overlords left and right. It's like tier 2 stasis + sc1scouts damage to air without the expensive cost issue.
Hydra's aren't free, they cost a lot of gas just like muta.
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How about warp prisms to transport some sentries around?
It would be nice if phoenixes could friendly lift and drag a single unit for some mobility.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
On March 15 2010 17:28 zomgzergrush wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 17:25 TossFloss wrote:
How to Phoenix not counter mutalisks?
Phoenix has 5 (x 2 attacks) + 5 bonus to light = 20 damage to mutalisks.
Zerg has the opening advantage because of their unit production mechanics. They can store up unit production (larvae) to quickly build a large number of tech units. This is not different than SC1 corsair vs mutalisk opening in which the corsairs lose in a straight fight only because of sheer number of mutalisks.
I'd suggest the following opening:
* 2 cannons defending the mineral line
* a few sentries for guardian shield
* 1 stargate pumping out phoenix
* research + 1 air attack upgrade
Once the +1 attack upgrade finishes, take the fight to zerg.
Unlike air-to-air corsairs, phoenix threaten ground units with their graviton beam. With some micro to lift the queen and pick off drones, that can turn into a very serious threat. My only gripe with this is the "large number of tech units" Yes, for the last time, Z get extra larvae, we know. But they won't be 50 mutalisks + hydralisks. Z users are limited by gas just like everyone else when it comes to tech units. I'd also recommend against +1 air attack upgrade. That's better spent in another phoenix IMO, specially that early in the game plus the whole 1 base gas thing.
Yeah, I think my choice of wording was poor. I'm just trying to point out that (ala SC1) zerg can do stuff like quickly build 9 mutalisks once their spire completes (3 hatch muta build). Of course they are limited by resources. But in a PvZ early corsair vs mutalisk, if you plot a graph of total-gas-spent / minute for each race (again, in the early game) the zerg graph would suddenly spike up then fall off whereas protoss would remain relatively constant. Eventually both graphs will converge. IMO this gives zerg an early game aggression advantage which stalls Protoss aggression until P catches up.
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On March 15 2010 17:50 TossFloss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 17:28 zomgzergrush wrote:On March 15 2010 17:25 TossFloss wrote:
How to Phoenix not counter mutalisks?
Phoenix has 5 (x 2 attacks) + 5 bonus to light = 20 damage to mutalisks.
Zerg has the opening advantage because of their unit production mechanics. They can store up unit production (larvae) to quickly build a large number of tech units. This is not different than SC1 corsair vs mutalisk opening in which the corsairs lose in a straight fight only because of sheer number of mutalisks.
I'd suggest the following opening:
* 2 cannons defending the mineral line
* a few sentries for guardian shield
* 1 stargate pumping out phoenix
* research + 1 air attack upgrade
Once the +1 attack upgrade finishes, take the fight to zerg.
Unlike air-to-air corsairs, phoenix threaten ground units with their graviton beam. With some micro to lift the queen and pick off drones, that can turn into a very serious threat. My only gripe with this is the "large number of tech units" Yes, for the last time, Z get extra larvae, we know. But they won't be 50 mutalisks + hydralisks. Z users are limited by gas just like everyone else when it comes to tech units. I'd also recommend against +1 air attack upgrade. That's better spent in another phoenix IMO, specially that early in the game plus the whole 1 base gas thing. Yeah, I think my choice of wording was poor. I'm just trying to point out that (ala SC1) zerg can do stuff like quickly build 9 mutalisks once their spire completes (3 hatch muta build). Of course they are limited by resources. But in a PvZ early corsair vs mutalisk, if you plot a graph of total-gas-spent / minute for each race (again, in the early game) the zerg graph would suddenly spike up then fall off whereas protoss would remain relatively constant. Eventually both graphs will converge. IMO this gives zerg an early game aggression advantage which stalls Protoss aggression until P catches up.
I feel it's alot less 1-1 due to the heavy counters every unit has with each other. Ex: immortal push vs expoing Z, 1 base roach push vs non-immortalling P
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On March 15 2010 17:23 zomgzergrush wrote:
<removed in the interest of brevity>
Hmm. Your experience is pretty different than mine, I guess is the takeaway here. I usually run over P that go straight to mutas before they get there on all but the largest maps when I ZI push. I might not kill them, but I usually at least get the queen, some drones, and often the lair as well, at which point the muta-ing player shows up at my base with a handful of mutas, sees 3 cannons, and leaves. The point of knowing the robo is delayed (due to a stalker or whatever) is that it *guarantees* you'll have time to get mutas out. Or hydras, which also do just fine against ZI. Or, most problematically, hydras and an expansion, which is where things get sticky.
So maybe I've just been playing against bad zergs who are slow on their muta tech. I can't discount that possibility. Or maybe the P you're playing are slow at ZI pushes. Also a possibility. But I think part of the issue we're having is that our experience of how certain openings line up don't 100% match up, so we're going to have a hard time agreeing on what counters what.
As an aside: I certainly agree that P tends to have a fairly appreciable advantage at scouting Zs bases in the mid and late game. The scouting issue definitely does equalize and even swing back the other way at times. And you'll note, I have no real complaints about PvZ once we're out of the first 10 minutes and I actually do have some idea what you're doing. But until that point, I feel like P has more ways to lose and less information about which one is coming, which I'm not a big fan of. If you disagree, so be it - I'm inclined to leave it there.
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On March 15 2010 18:01 Steve496 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2010 17:23 zomgzergrush wrote:
<removed in the interest of brevity>
Hmm. Your experience is pretty different than mine, I guess is the takeaway here. I usually run over P that go straight to mutas before they get there on all but the largest maps when I ZI push. I might not kill them, but I usually at least get the queen, some drones, and often the lair as well, at which point the muta-ing player shows up at my base with a handful of mutas, sees 3 cannons, and leaves. The point of knowing the robo is delayed (due to a stalker or whatever) is that it *guarantees* you'll have time to get mutas out. Or hydras, which also do just fine against ZI. Or, most problematically, hydras and an expansion, which is where things get sticky. So maybe I've just been playing against bad zergs who are slow on their muta tech. I can't discount that possibility. Or maybe the P you're playing are slow at ZI pushes. Also a possibility. But I think part of the issue we're having is that our experience of how certain openings line up don't 100% match up, so we're going to have a hard time agreeing on what counters what. As an aside: I certainly agree that P tends to have a fairly appreciable advantage at scouting Zs bases in the mid and late game. The scouting issue definitely does equalize and even swing back the other way at times. And you'll note, I have no real complaints about PvZ once we're out of the first 10 minutes and I actually do have some idea what you're doing. But until that point, I feel like P has more ways to lose and less information about which one is coming, which I'm not a big fan of. If you disagree, so be it - I'm inclined to leave it there.
I don't have complaints in pvz or zvp on any level, just trying to help those who are having PvZ issues in said departments. Jumping between ZvP and PvZ threads, the complaints (i.e. scouting and not knowing what to make) are hilariously similar on both sides. Many Z players actually feel that they cannot properly scout P before overseers.
As far as the Z's going muta, my own build was tailored specifically vs any 1 or 2 gate ZI. It is a 2 base build and relies on getting muta out exactly in the right timing and in a large enough number. You are correct in that any slower of a muta build will likely die to ZI easily.
After watching different replays I pinpointed the exact timings ZI can hit and tailored a build to give me muta at the right time as well as continuing to outproduce P AA. I don't think theres any other way for it to be executed where you end up in a better scenario if you decide to muta vs ZI. Any slight delay in my build (i.e. making two roaches or something from a misread) could easily cost me the game vs a ZI push of any measure. The earliest ZI can strike with 1 immortal without obs scouting hits me during the point where muta eggs of my build that are about 50% finished depending on distance. Kills my nat at best but the ZI army dies and P suffers serious/fatal damage at home thereafter.
Probably won't be seeing it widely used anytime soon though...hopefully something similar will though so we can all get over this whole ZI shindig and move on to the next innovation.
A far as different experiences I think that is a big problem. 90% of P I play on plat ALL do the ZI push and that is it. Nothing else. I don't know what the zvp trend is with other Z's as I think many of em are crowding the P imba thread right now.
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EPT
