EPTCracklings were as imba as fuck as harass units with defiler support especially ZvP where they are underused(I am talking about canon heavy defences for P, no reavers/hts and CC raids vT). I dont mind this at all. The cooldown in SC1 goes from 8 to 6 with crack upgrade.
Adrenal Glands is a joke - Page 2
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samachking
Bahrain4949 Posts
Cracklings were as imba as fuck as harass units with defiler support especially ZvP where they are underused(I am talking about canon heavy defences for P, no reavers/hts and CC raids vT). I dont mind this at all. The cooldown in SC1 goes from 8 to 6 with crack upgrade. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 02 2010 20:03 samachking wrote: Hey did you do know that a single crackling that costs 25 minerals does more damage per minute than a battlecruiser in BW? Cracklings were as imba as fuck as harass units with defiler support especially ZvP where they are underused(I am talking about canon heavy defences for P, no reavers/hts and CC raids vT). I dont mind this at all. The cooldown in SC1 goes from 8 to 6 with crack upgrade. Look at the numbers listed in the 4th post, the relative damage of Zerglings has already dropped significantly. This isn't an issue of Zerglings' power in the game. It's an issue of 1) stylistically the upgrade should feel like it makes a difference and 2) an upgrade that costs 200/200 should be able to compete with attack upgrades for utility (as every attack upgrade costs less or equal), and right now, adrenal glands doesn't do that. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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Pergamon
Sweden100 Posts
On March 02 2010 20:00 TheYango wrote: Definitely not double attack rate. Look at the cooldown numbers listed by Mystlord--they go from cooldown 8 to cooldown 6, which is a 33% increase. As compared to SC2 where it instead gets you a 18.5% increase. So basically it's only half as good. Using even more math, you can compare this to the melee weapons upgrade. The first upgrade grants you 20% more damage, then 17%, and lastly 14%. This means that it's better to have a zergling that's 1-0 with the adrenal upgrade, than to have a zergling that's 2-0 without it (although it's extremely marginal, in 100 hits the crackling does 1020 damage vs 1001). I feel like statistically the adrenal gland upgrade is comparable to the weapon upgrades. I imagine the feel would be the same, in SC1 you can't tell right away that one army has an upgrade advantage of the other until the battle is over, when you see how many remaining forces are left. And i don't have the beta, these are just my 2 cents. edit: i meant in 100 seconds, not hits btw | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 02 2010 20:23 Pergamon wrote: As compared to SC2 where it instead gets you a 18.5% increase. So basically it's only half as good. Using even more math, you can compare this to the melee weapons upgrade. The first upgrade grants you 20% more damage, then 17%, and lastly 14%. This means that it's better to have a zergling that's 1-0 with the adrenal upgrade, than to have a zergling that's 2-0 without it (although it's extremely marginal, in 100 hits the crackling does 1020 damage vs 1001). I feel like statistically the adrenal gland upgrade is comparable to the weapon upgrades. I imagine the feel would be the same, in SC1 you can't tell right away that one army has an upgrade advantage of the other until the battle is over, when you see how many remaining forces are left. And i don't have the beta, these are just my 2 cents. There are two considerations, though: 1) All attack upgrades except +3 cost less than adrenal glands (100/100, 150/150, and 200/200). This means that even looking at just zerglings, attack +1 far outstrips adrenal glands in cost-effectiveness, attack +2 beats is by a bit, and attack +3 is less cost-effective. 2) Attack upgrades affect all melee units while adrenal glands affects only zerglings. By the time you have attack +3, you will have ultralisks, and given how their attacks now cleave, they will dish out a sizeable portion of your damage. Combining these 2, it's hard to make an argument for adrenal glands being worth the comparative cost to attack upgrades at ANY stage of the game. | ||
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mfukar
Greece41 Posts
On March 02 2010 20:03 samachking wrote: How is this at all relevant? Zerglings are a mere 35 hitpoint critter, non-flying, faster than my neighbour's cat on uppers. Battlecruisers are...(spoiler alert) none of the above. All the related questions are probably not fit to judging whether Adrenal Glands are a good upgrade for Zerglings:Hey did you do know that a single crackling that costs 25 minerals does more damage per minute than a battlecruiser in BW? Does a single crackling output more damage per minute than a battlecruiser in SC2? Irrelevant. Can a single crackling kill a battlecruiser fast enough? Irrelevant. Can a single battlecruiser kill its cost's worth in zerglings fast enough? Irrelevant. Because the game is more than the sum of plain rock-paper-scissors dilemmas. On topic, I think the AG upgrade is a bit weak, at the moment. I'm also confident Blizzard will see this and adjust accordingly. If it's needed, that is. | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
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Pergamon
Sweden100 Posts
On March 02 2010 20:34 TheYango wrote: There are two considerations, though: 1) All attack upgrades except +3 cost less than adrenal glands (100/100, 150/150, and 200/200). This means that even looking at just zerglings, attack +1 far outstrips adrenal glands in cost-effectiveness, attack +2 beats is by a bit, and attack +3 is less cost-effective. 2) Attack upgrades affect all melee units while adrenal glands affects only zerglings. By the time you have attack +3, you will have ultralisks, and given how their attacks now cleave, they will dish out a sizeable portion of your damage. Combining these 2, it's hard to make an argument for adrenal glands being worth the comparative cost to attack upgrades at ANY stage of the game. I see your point. I feel it's just hard to accept the fact that you'd rather build AN ultralisk more instead giving half your army a slight boost... What would be the necessary change to make adrenal glands more viable? Would it be enough just to move the upgrade to tier 1 and acts as an early +2, or does the cooldown simply have to get decreased? I'd like to see some tests done army vs army, like, how many zealots survive x number zerglings with and without the adrenal upgrade. Will there be any difference if you instead threw AN ultralisk more into the mix? | ||
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zee
201 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
On March 02 2010 19:06 caution.slip wrote: Taken from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114249 third page relative parts bolded so SC1 was a 25% increased attack speed. SC2 is ~16%? doesn't the adrenal tooltip say 20% maybe attack cooldown != attack speed... It's 33.(3)% attack speed increase in SC1(25% cooldown, but the number of attacks in the same time period increase by 33.(3)%) and just 18.57% in SC2(if the values given are correct). | ||
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NeoLearner
Belgium1847 Posts
On March 02 2010 21:00 lololol wrote: It's 33.(3)% attack speed increase in SC1(25% cooldown, but the number of attacks in the same time period increase by 33.(3)%) and just 18.57% in SC2(if the values given are correct). Math to the rescue! Almost 50% slower compared to SC1. I can imagine you can feel the impact of that one. | ||
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zee
201 Posts
On March 02 2010 20:58 Zelniq wrote: sadly it doesnt seem like posting on official blizz forums, at least for NA SC2 beta forums, would be anything close to 'making sure Blizz sees it' How can you know that? Im pretty sure they will at least read. Better than nothing. | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1013 Posts
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shoop
United Kingdom228 Posts
(a) depending on circumstances, be more worthwhile to get than an attack upgrade, and (b) make zerglings look as if they're on crack. Currently it doesn't do either. Here is an overview of damage per second multiplier compared to an unupgraded zergling; columns show # attack upgrades (0 - 3), second row shows the effect of the adrenal gland upgrade. zergling vs unarmored opponents 1.00 1.17 1.33 1.50 1.19 1.38 1.58 1.78 The adrenal upgrade is slightly more helpful than the third attack upgrade. However, not only does the attack upgrade apply to more units as mentioned before. It is even worse: vs armored units, the attack upgrades are relatively more effective. For example, against a unit with 2 armor, the effect of the third attack upgrade is 20%, the same as the effect of the first attack upgrade against a unit with 0 armor. I give the above table again for attacking units with one and two armor, respectively: zergling vs opponents with armor 1 1.00 1.25 1.50 1.75 1.19 1.48 1.78 2.07 You see that in this case the second attack upgrade is not only cheaper than the adrenal glands, but it is also slightly more effective. zergling vs opponents with armor 2 1.00 1.33 1.67 2.00 1.19 1.58 1.98 2.37 And in this case, even the last attack upgrade is slightly more efficient than the adrenal glands, even without considering the ultralisks. So if you think that you might be attacking armored units or buildings, and/or that you might be getting ultras, you're probably better off getting attack 3 than the adrenal glands. It may still be worthwhile getting the adrenal glands if (a) you are making lots of zerglings, (b) your evo chamber is already upgrading or you already have all attack upgrades and (c) you have resources to spare. But it's a sucky upgrade. | ||
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MidKnight
Lithuania884 Posts
You know.. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Anyway, longs are definitely not the primary damage dealers of an army anymore. They're essentially cannon fodder now considering how fast they fall compared to SC. They need something to make more than that I feel. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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