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United States7166 Posts
Wrote a detailed, long post and just as I was putting some final touches my computer crashed
For now I'll just say that despite having the same requirements/cost/name/long research length as SC1, it's NOTHING like SC1 Adrenal.
This would be much easier if I knew how to record a side-by-side comparison in a video, it would be instantly clear to everyone.
In fact in my first ladder game where I tried it, I couldn't even tell I had upgraded it, as my 'cracklings' beat on a building slowly I had to go check and make sure it was upgraded.
tested in a custom game, turns out that even when watching closely, you can barely notice the difference in attack speed increase.
Did a simple test:
Turns out that when 1 drone fights 1 zergling, in SC1, when the drone dies the zergling survives with 16 hp WITHOUT Adrenal, but with upgrade, he has 26 hp. But in SC2 the zergling will survive with 16 hp both without and with Adrenal upgrade. lol wtf? 
As of right now, it's clearly not even worth upgrading, even if you have a great economy and Hive. It's that bad.
In SC1, 'cracklings' was one of the defining aspects of zerg and was probably the most loved feature of the zerg. It's so sad to see it in this terrible state, it would be really awesome if they could return most/all of the speed increase while finding a way to balance it, with say perhaps returning Archons to their former Splash glory, just as one example.
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But hey, I should look at the bright side.
At least Savior can play SC2 and never worry about forgetting Adrenal ever again.
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I noticed this also and never went back to teching that, even with hive/great economy. I hope it eventually comes back, one of the few things I truly miss from BW.
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Interesting. I'd like to see this test done bigger though, like, how long it takes for 12 lings to kill nexus with and without the upgrade. How marginal is the difference?
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Taken from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114249 third page
relative parts bolded
On March 02 2010 09:12 Mystlord wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 08:32 Yurebis wrote:
Is there any hard data that zerglings and zealots do in fact have the same dps in sc2 compared to sc1?
It seems to me zerglings attack a lot slower in sc2 even with adrenal upgrade, like 3.5 attacks per second when in sc1 it was like 5. Look at my previous post. Absolute DPS doesn't matter in this case, what matters is relative DPS, of which it's now 2:1 instead of 3:1. And since you brought up the Adrenal upgrade: SC1: Normal Zergling Cooldown - 8Normal Zealot Cooldown - 22 Adrenal Zergling Cooldown - 6Ratio w/o Adrenal - 2.75:1 Ratio w/ Adrenal - 3.6667 SC2: Normal Zergling Cooldown - .696Normal Zealot Cooldown - 1.2 Adrenal Zergling Cooldown - .587Ratio w/o Adrenal - 1.724:1 Ratio w/ Adrenal - 2.044 So yes, Zerglings suck relative balls against Zealots now. Your primary damage dealers should come from other sources. If you want hard DPS numbers, take the damage values for Zerglings and Zealot, divide them by the cooldowns I just gave you, and tada~. I reiterate that ling DPS decreases dramatically compared to Zealots since losing 1 ling is pretty big.
so SC1 was a 25% increased attack speed. SC2 is ~16%? doesn't the adrenal tooltip say 20%
maybe attack cooldown != attack speed...
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To not make as much of a difference to effect the amount of hp a drone survives with 1v1 does sound pretty ridiculous, definitely post on blizz forums it needs to be upped.
Completely agree with pretty much everything you said if your testing was right, it should be a defining aspect and should make zerglings much stronger. One of the coolest things about starcraft was how every single early game unit was still pivotal in late game (marines tvz, zerglings in all, zealots in all) and half of that was the upgrades they received (marines benefit hugely from attack upgrades, bassically increasing there original attack x1.5, same with zerglings and cracklings>>>>zerglings no comparison, zealot legs).
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United States47024 Posts
Nice find.
Not sure what Blizz did here. What's the point of preserving the HP/shield/damage numbers on Zealots/Zerglings if you're going to skew the upgrades and cooldowns differently?
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It's certainly better than nothing if you are gonna make zlings anyways.
I aint in beta so I kinda shouldn't talk about it but logic tells me that.
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Yeah this was starting to bug me. I wasn't sure if I was just too blind to notice but hosnestlyafter the upgrade I could not tell I had even upgraded.
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United States7166 Posts
On March 02 2010 19:13 Iplaythings wrote:
It's certainly better than nothing if you are gonna make zlings anyways.
I aint in beta so I kinda shouldn't talk about it but logic tells me that.
yeah if you saw it you would probably rather spend money on ANYTHING else
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You just can't judge from only a drone/zergling experiment. You should try on a nexus as mentioned before. I will do that when i will return home
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United States7166 Posts
yes but you can easily judge just from watching a zergling attack a building while the upgrade finishes.
if you saw you'd easily know no tests are necessary, im tempted to learn how to record videos just to show it
but yeah if nobody has by tomorrow i'll go do the better test
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Interesting. As a terran, lings seem to be pretty strong when they're used against me, but still, that doesn't mean the upgrade should be borderline useless. I'd really like to hear of more tests on other units/buildings.
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i noticed this too. one of the many current failures going on. hopefully someone is reading this at their HQ
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another retard wich bealive if its not the same as in sc 1 is not good....
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On March 02 2010 19:17 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2010 19:13 Iplaythings wrote:
It's certainly better than nothing if you are gonna make zlings anyways.
I aint in beta so I kinda shouldn't talk about it but logic tells me that. yeah if you saw it you would probably rather spend money on ANYTHING else
Well when I see the stats posted. Zerglings still seems useful for dropping in his main and killing a nexus / production facillities / tech building.
8/16 zerglings usually did just fine at that in BW.
I know I am defending it but I just really want it to have an use.
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I just did a test where I told a normal Zergling to kill a Hatchery and told an Adrenal Zergling to kill a Hatchery then compared the time to kill the Hatcheries for both Zerglings. The Adrenal Zergling killed the Hatchery almost 20% faster.
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I gotta agree that it's hard to notice the difference.
In sc1 it's soo easy to see whether lings have the upgrade or not just after seeing the ling attack something for 1 second.
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United States7166 Posts
yeah the tooltip says 20% increase. idont know the increase sc 1 zerglings did but it seems about 100% ish, i'll test it later
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I've only played a couple of games on a friend's computer, but this was actually something I noticed right away. The Adrenal Glands upgrade was at least less noticeable. I haven't done simple experiments or anything, but I remember feeling that the buildings should be destroyed faster. If you got a total crackling-surround on any building in Starcraft, it would die so fast, but in SC2, I felt like it was just a little faster than it would without adrenal glands. Maybe it's the zergling that's gotten slower, and in turn it makes the adrenal glands upgrade worse as well.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 02 2010 19:34 Scourge wrote:
another retard wich bealive if its not the same as in sc 1 is not good....
It's not even that. It's the fact that an upgrade that costs on the order of an attack upgrade should be at least as good as an attack upgrade, or it's never going to get used. Melee attack upgrades give you +20% damage on zerglings and affect all other melee units as well. This gives less than +20% damage on zerglings alone.
On March 02 2010 19:48 Zelniq wrote:
yeah the tooltip says 20% increase. idont know the increase sc 1 zerglings did but it seems about 100% ish, i'll test it later
Definitely not double attack rate. Look at the cooldown numbers listed by Mystlord--they go from cooldown 8 to cooldown 6, which is a 33% increase.
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EPT
