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On December 18 2009 13:12 Kazius wrote:First time I can bluntly disagree with Day[9] - + Show Spoiler +Flash was in no position to win throughout the game - despite many blunders by Hyun. This game is the chess equivalent of losing a queen and a rook for nothing early on and playing perfectly onwards - no matter how good you are, you'll still lose and the timing is dependent only on the opponent.
I agree, but you can count of people making mistakes. The better player will make less mistakes theoretically.
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On December 18 2009 13:12 Kazius wrote:First time I can bluntly disagree with Day[9] - + Show Spoiler +Flash was in no position to win throughout the game - despite many blunders by Hyun. This game is the chess equivalent of losing a queen and a rook for nothing early on and playing perfectly onwards - no matter how good you are, you'll still lose and the timing is dependent only on the opponent.
hmm! + Show Spoiler + Well I never said that flash was in a position to win. I said constantly that it was a tense situation for zerg and I was blown away at how well of a position flash could force himself into despite being so far behind. Moreover, Hyun didn't really make many blunders. He played damn well start to finish.
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Requesting Jaedong VS FlaSh..
I know its premature but how could it not be epic?
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On December 18 2009 17:34 vRoOk wrote: Requesting Jaedong VS FlaSh..
I know its premature but how could it not be epic?
wouldn't surprise me if we saw 9pool vs 14cc 8]
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Anti-requesting Jaedong vs Flash. Requesting Calm vs Pure instead. An interesting (albeit short) game that provides a good example of when being aggressive and cute can come back to bite you in the ass. Also an example of how to keep your cool when your opponent is being cute and super aggressive.
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Calm vs Pure / and the Stork game.... both would be nice - first one is short anyway :D
plz Day[9].
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On December 18 2009 17:22 Day[9] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 13:12 Kazius wrote:First time I can bluntly disagree with Day[9] - + Show Spoiler +Flash was in no position to win throughout the game - despite many blunders by Hyun. This game is the chess equivalent of losing a queen and a rook for nothing early on and playing perfectly onwards - no matter how good you are, you'll still lose and the timing is dependent only on the opponent. hmm! + Show Spoiler + Well I never said that flash was in a position to win. I said constantly that it was a tense situation for zerg and I was blown away at how well of a position flash could force himself into despite being so far behind. Moreover, Hyun didn't really make many blunders. He played damn well start to finish. + Show Spoiler +Hyun's micro and macro were spot on, but his positioning was mediocre, hence the efficiency of Flash's guerrilla tactics at the staging areas, and unit movement towards combat was also plain wrong at times (the massive failed lurker attack at the start being the best example). His lack of a clear strategy nearly allowed Flash back in. It was an "I've done all my game plan, now what?" moment.
The bottom line though: I don't think Jaedong would have to wait until Flash was starved out if it was an uncontested 5 bases to 2. I don't think Yarnc or Calm or EffOrt would. Not that they'd ever reach that position without an exploit Flash was unprepared for, but then again, neither would Hyun.
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On December 18 2009 07:09 RoieTRS wrote:No, this game was seriously the stupidest game I have ever seen. It was indeed stupid. Might not have been the most high level game, most of what went right or wrong was pretty obvious so it's not like we need day9 to analyze the game for that reason. I think the builds both players used and the position they were in after half the game was kind of interesting though. I guess it might not be so suited for a 1 hour analysis. I guess you are right. Was damn enjoyable to watch at least
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On December 18 2009 17:39 Day[9] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 17:34 vRoOk wrote: Requesting Jaedong VS FlaSh..
I know its premature but how could it not be epic? wouldn't surprise me if we saw 9pool vs 14cc 8]
Heh, + Show Spoiler +poor Jaedong. I'd cry as well after that.
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On December 19 2009 02:10 Kazius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2009 17:22 Day[9] wrote:On December 18 2009 13:12 Kazius wrote:First time I can bluntly disagree with Day[9] - + Show Spoiler +Flash was in no position to win throughout the game - despite many blunders by Hyun. This game is the chess equivalent of losing a queen and a rook for nothing early on and playing perfectly onwards - no matter how good you are, you'll still lose and the timing is dependent only on the opponent. hmm! + Show Spoiler + Well I never said that flash was in a position to win. I said constantly that it was a tense situation for zerg and I was blown away at how well of a position flash could force himself into despite being so far behind. Moreover, Hyun didn't really make many blunders. He played damn well start to finish. + Show Spoiler +Hyun's micro and macro were spot on, but his positioning was mediocre, hence the efficiency of Flash's guerrilla tactics at the staging areas, and unit movement towards combat was also plain wrong at times (the massive failed lurker attack at the start being the best example). His lack of a clear strategy nearly allowed Flash back in. It was an "I've done all my game plan, now what?" moment.
The bottom line though: I don't think Jaedong would have to wait until Flash was starved out if it was an uncontested 5 bases to 2. I don't think Yarnc or Calm or EffOrt would. Not that they'd ever reach that position without an exploit Flash was unprepared for, but then again, neither would Hyun.
+ Show Spoiler +I have not watched the Day9 cast of this game but I will soon. I just wanted to give what I thought about this game as I was watching it (as I thoroughly enjoyed it despite being a Flash fan). I didn't think that Hyun's play was bad, I actually quite like his approach to the game. I do understand your point about positioning, when I watch the game again I will see about that but I'm sure you're right.
As for Hyun slowly bleeding Flash I thought that it was a very solid play. Hyun took a large advantage early because of Flash's mistake, akin to your chess analogy, Flash lost a piece of importance early. Hyun then decided to force Flash's hand, to fight him and to make them both take losses. Hyun started trading pieces with Flash so that when it came down to it, the piece that Flash lost early made a big difference.
Now this is not to say that this is not a dangerous thing to do with an opponent such as Flash. Whenever anybody except Jaedong, Bisu, or Stork decide to trade armies with Flash they inevitably lose a small amount of advantage. Flash is so good that unless you are S class you are guaranteed to weaken your position. The important questions then become: How big is your advantage? How quickly do you lose advantage? How long will the game last?
So it immediately comes down to this question, will my advantage hold out until the end of the game? Consider Flash v Hiya on 10/28 (a short TvT). Hiya took an advantage however it was not large enough to last to the end of the game and Flash won. Now look at the Hyun game, Hyun took a large lead and his followup play was to take Flash's fourth. This did 2 things, it capitalized on Hyun's advantage and it imposed a time limit on Flash. If Flash could not erase Hyun's advantage on three bases then he would lose. Flash played almost perfect Starcraft after his mistake and he slowly eroded Hyun's advantage however he could not do it before he exhausted his 3 bases of minerals. I know for a fact that if Flash had secured a 4th that he would have won the game. Hyun traded troops often enough to prevent Flash from taking his 4th and he won the game.
I think that had Hyun been more aggressive, had he had a plan on how to end the game before Flash ran out of minerals that it would have been even more dangerous for Hyun. Trying to force the end of the game and failing would have given Flash a better chance I think.
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On December 19 2009 02:50 revy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 02:10 Kazius wrote:On December 18 2009 17:22 Day[9] wrote:On December 18 2009 13:12 Kazius wrote:First time I can bluntly disagree with Day[9] - + Show Spoiler +Flash was in no position to win throughout the game - despite many blunders by Hyun. This game is the chess equivalent of losing a queen and a rook for nothing early on and playing perfectly onwards - no matter how good you are, you'll still lose and the timing is dependent only on the opponent. hmm! + Show Spoiler + Well I never said that flash was in a position to win. I said constantly that it was a tense situation for zerg and I was blown away at how well of a position flash could force himself into despite being so far behind. Moreover, Hyun didn't really make many blunders. He played damn well start to finish. + Show Spoiler +Hyun's micro and macro were spot on, but his positioning was mediocre, hence the efficiency of Flash's guerrilla tactics at the staging areas, and unit movement towards combat was also plain wrong at times (the massive failed lurker attack at the start being the best example). His lack of a clear strategy nearly allowed Flash back in. It was an "I've done all my game plan, now what?" moment.
The bottom line though: I don't think Jaedong would have to wait until Flash was starved out if it was an uncontested 5 bases to 2. I don't think Yarnc or Calm or EffOrt would. Not that they'd ever reach that position without an exploit Flash was unprepared for, but then again, neither would Hyun. + Show Spoiler +I have not watched the Day9 cast of this game but I will soon. I just wanted to give what I thought about this game as I was watching it (as I thoroughly enjoyed it despite being a Flash fan). I didn't think that Hyun's play was bad, I actually quite like his approach to the game. I do understand your point about positioning, when I watch the game again I will see about that but I'm sure you're right.
As for Hyun slowly bleeding Flash I thought that it was a very solid play. Hyun took a large advantage early because of Flash's mistake, akin to your chess analogy, Flash lost a piece of importance early. Hyun then decided to force Flash's hand, to fight him and to make them both take losses. Hyun started trading pieces with Flash so that when it came down to it, the piece that Flash lost early made a big difference.
Now this is not to say that this is not a dangerous thing to do with an opponent such as Flash. Whenever anybody except Jaedong, Bisu, or Stork decide to trade armies with Flash they inevitably lose a small amount of advantage. Flash is so good that unless you are S class you are guaranteed to weaken your position. The important questions then become: How big is your advantage? How quickly do you lose advantage? How long will the game last?
So it immediately comes down to this question, will my advantage hold out until the end of the game? Consider Flash v Hiya on 10/28 (a short TvT). Hiya took an advantage however it was not large enough to last to the end of the game and Flash won. Now look at the Hyun game, Hyun took a large lead and his followup play was to take Flash's fourth. This did 2 things, it capitalized on Hyun's advantage and it imposed a time limit on Flash. If Flash could not erase Hyun's advantage on three bases then he would lose. Flash played almost perfect Starcraft after his mistake and he slowly eroded Hyun's advantage however he could not do it before he exhausted his 3 bases of minerals. I know for a fact that if Flash had secured a 4th that he would have won the game. Hyun traded troops often enough to prevent Flash from taking his 4th and he won the game.
I think that had Hyun been more aggressive, had he had a plan on how to end the game before Flash ran out of minerals that it would have been even more dangerous for Hyun. Trying to force the end of the game and failing would have given Flash a better chance I think. + Show Spoiler +All he needed to do was shut down the mineral only. Not to try and Sauron-Zerg (even though that would have been cool and very well might have worked). I think that would have been safer (considering Flash's amazing play) - it doesn't pay to allow your opponent to pick up a knife when you have a shotgun. You just blast his head off.
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i dont know if it is just me, but i cant find the casts from 17/12 and 18/12 on demand. cant see them live because it goes at 4 am here... the last on demand video i find on http://www.livestream.com/striderdoom/folder is from 16/12 when our friendly neighbourhood Day[9] forgot to turn on the sound :D
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You don't. I wish someone made a TvZ is imba thread like the protoss have ZvP imba, so i could complain mindlessly and use it whenever a terran wins to make them feel bad. Oh wait, nope.
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On December 19 2009 18:02 Camlito wrote:You don't. I wish someone made a TvZ is imba thread like the protoss have ZvP imba, so i could complain mindlessly and use it whenever a terran wins to make them feel bad. Oh wait, nope. OMFG TvZ soooo sososo imba, i make marines and like 40 turrets yet the mutas will still run in into the place where the turret line is ONLY 3 thick and will kill all my scvs, after ive recovered from that and finally get enough shit to move out then 100 lurkers and swarm come and rape my nat, so unfair  <3 cam
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there hasn't been anything new on demand in ages!!!!! (3days). I've been curled up in the fetal position for the last 2 days waiting for updates. AD9 next, Anonymous Day9ers.
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United States4126 Posts
On December 19 2009 20:20 cYaN wrote: there hasn't been anything new on demand in ages!!!!! (3days). I've been curled up in the fetal position for the last 2 days waiting for updates. AD9 next, Anonymous Day9ers. The casts from 12/16 onwards seem to be missing T_T
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On December 19 2009 18:06 Scaramanga wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2009 18:02 Camlito wrote:You don't. I wish someone made a TvZ is imba thread like the protoss have ZvP imba, so i could complain mindlessly and use it whenever a terran wins to make them feel bad. Oh wait, nope. OMFG TvZ soooo sososo imba, i make marines and like 40 turrets yet the mutas will still run in into the place where the turret line is ONLY 3 thick and will kill all my scvs, after ive recovered from that and finally get enough shit to move out then 100 lurkers and swarm come and rape my nat, so unfair  <3 cam
I mean when good terrans play TvZ (c- or above)
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