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On July 14 2010 00:40 MorroW wrote:
blindly choosing or building just means abusing medigame or using general mindgame. so thats more like what day 9 really meant, hes making decisions without actually responding to something he scouted, aka assume or abuse
Did you mean "meta game" instead of "medigame"? If you did, then I disagree. Meta gaming is going into a game saying something to yourself like "Most zergs these days are going mass muta, so I will thor rush and build a bunch of marines." Or in other words, meta gaming is when you assume your opponent will play a certain way because of generalized trends within the greater SC2 community.
I believe Day9's definition of forcing is completely accurate. By thor rushing and building a ton of marines without scouting, you are completely safe from a mutaing player. Or in other words you are forcing the other player not to go mass muta because if they do go mass muta they will lose.
The difference is in why you are choosing to thor rush and go mass marine. If the purpose of it is to not have to worry about a mass muta player, you are forcing. If you are doing it because you are expecting mass muta without scouting it, you are meta gaming.
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On July 14 2010 00:40 MorroW wrote:
everything else in the eposide is pretty damn spot on as day9 always is in his analysis
except that these matches against socke weren't played by you, but some weird hybrid creature of you and Mardow called Marrow
Day[9] Daily #153 - Socke vs Marrow: Counters Are Not Real
He even says "Mardow" at about 00:20 
But ofc it's no big deal, cool matches and great, great commentary like in every daily. Thanks Day9!
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Glad to have you back Day9! I missed being able to watch your show last week
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Anyone know in what episode Day9 named himself The Thoughthammer? I thought I had watched most of them..
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On July 14 2010 01:24 SnakeChomp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:40 MorroW wrote:
blindly choosing or building just means abusing medigame or using general mindgame. so thats more like what day 9 really meant, hes making decisions without actually responding to something he scouted, aka assume or abuse Did you mean "meta game" instead of "medigame"? If you did, then I disagree. Meta gaming is going into a game saying something to yourself like "Most zergs these days are going mass muta, so I will thor rush and build a bunch of marines." Or in other words, meta gaming is when you assume your opponent will play a certain way because of generalized trends within the greater SC2 community. I believe Day9's definition of forcing is completely accurate. By thor rushing and building a ton of marines without scouting, you are completely safe from a mutaing player. Or in other words you are forcing the other player not to go mass muta because if they do go mass muta they will lose. The difference is in why you are choosing to thor rush and go mass marine. If the purpose of it is to not have to worry about a mass muta player, you are forcing. If you are doing it because you are expecting mass muta without scouting it, you are meta gaming.
Fuckin words. What do we really accomplish by defining such vague things? 
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On July 14 2010 02:45 Ullis wrote:
Anyone know in what episode Day9 named himself The Thoughthammer? I thought I had watched most of them..
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=130010
The Boy and His Game was a story Day wrote and performed for when the beta went down. It's pretty awesome, and Day9 is referred to as The Thought Hammer.
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Oh yea that one, I listened to it like 5-6 times already, just thought he had come up with it before..
I love that story :D
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the proble is that i can't watch cos it's too late 'o_0'
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On July 14 2010 03:48 thespitfire wrote:
the proble is that i can't watch cos it's too late 'o_0'
Thank god for VOD
Or oh no, thank Day9!
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Hey Day9!
153 was amazing! Glad you'r back!
Loved the concept of 'forcing-responding' to explain the real time element of SCII. When you were talking about it, it immediately reminded me the concept of "Initiative" in military strategy (I'm currently reading 'The Art of War" ><*). Basically Forcing = Having the initiative = forcing the opponent to Responde, him not having the initiative (sure responding but exposed to extinction in the meantime). The effectiveness of both being directly correlated to scouting/map control.
Now in common military paradigm, having the initiative is one of the biggest advantages you can have over an opponent. Would you say that in SCII being in a "forcing position" is ultimately better than being in a "response-situation"?
Moreover are those concepts very dynamic within a game round (switching from forcing to response back and forth), or is there a "player component", some players being more aggressive/passive...
So many questions ^^ Ustream chat has not enough space
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Himali, I'm no Day9 but I did my military duty and if you have too then you know that initiaive is only good as long as you maintain it. When the enemy regroup and you over-extend yourself you get extra laps around the yard for getting your squad killed ^^
Basically, being aggressive allows you to control your enemies response which means that you're "one step ahead" which is the better situation but only as long as you use it.
I.e. if we assume rock/paper/scissor and you smash his scissors with rocks its all fine and dandy untill he gets paper and you're still using rocks.
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where are the episodes :[[[[[[[[[[
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You know, Day9 might be right kinda when he says there are no Hard Counters in SC2.. If anything, Hard counters was MUCH more apparent in SC1..
Think about this... I am watching LZgamers stream right now (cause us server is down, no key on eu/kor and im also eating..) and I just saw him run about 30 stimmed marines straight into ~15 stalkers, and own them.. Would you EVER run 30 marines into 15 dragoons in SC1?? Hell no, You'd be owned in seconds. Stalkers are suppose to be the counter to Marines, and they somewhat are if you have space to run/micro around.. but straight up Marines can kill stalkers in seconds if they cant run.
Marauders take out immortals and collosus, and can sustain lots of storm damage (needs 2-3 storms to kill one if they move slightly out of the way).. And even roaches, if you outnumber the immortals at least 3 to 1, will win.
So really.. When looking at SC1, when things like vultures dominate zealots, and dragoons dominate vultures, and tanks dominate dragoons.. and zealots dominate tanks.. Those are hard counters. In SC2, everything has a big chance of winning vs everything..
I dont know exactly how I feel about this concept, while it does promote micro somewhat, it also makes certain strategies less viable, such as was shown in Day's latest, rushing collosus was virtually useless off 1 base, which in BW if you get a fast reaver vs a fast expo terran, that should do some damage, not die in seconds. hmm
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On July 14 2010 05:33 Skyze wrote:
You know, Day9 might be right kinda when he says there are no Hard Counters in SC2.. If anything, Hard counters was MUCH more apparent in SC1..
Think about this... I am watching LZgamers stream right now (cause us server is down, no key on eu/kor and im also eating..) and I just saw him run about 30 stimmed marines straight into ~15 stalkers, and own them.. Would you EVER run 30 marines into 15 dragoons in SC1?? Hell no, You'd be owned in seconds. Stalkers are suppose to be the counter to Marines, and they somewhat are if you have space to run/micro around.. but straight up Marines can kill stalkers in seconds if they cant run.
Marauders take out immortals and collosus, and can sustain lots of storm damage (needs 2-3 storms to kill one if they move slightly out of the way).. And even roaches, if you outnumber the immortals at least 3 to 1, will win.
So really.. When looking at SC1, when things like vultures dominate zealots, and dragoons dominate vultures, and tanks dominate dragoons.. and zealots dominate tanks.. Those are hard counters. In SC2, everything has a big chance of winning vs everything..
I dont know exactly how I feel about this concept, while it does promote micro somewhat, it also makes certain strategies less viable, such as was shown in Day's latest, rushing collosus was virtually useless off 1 base, which in BW if you get a fast reaver vs a fast expo terran, that should do some damage, not die in seconds. hmm
Ever rushed 10 Zealots (even with Charge) into 2 Hellions? 
I think there are hard counters, but you don't have to wrap your whole strategy around them. And many people talk about tier 1/1,5 units and stuff like that, I dont think that exists in SC2 as it does in Warcraft 3. For example Carriers do not automatically win against Marines because they are a higher tier.
But for someone who did not play SC1 very actively (watched progames sometimes though) the TvP matchup in Starcraft 2 looks pretty damn similar to the one in the original Starcraft if the Terran opens with the 1/1/1 build and goes for tanks / hellions / raven / ghosts. Of course most Terrans seem to prefer Bio atm (Do they? I'm a terran player, so not familiar with PvT from toss point of view), but I think some sort of 1/1/1 will get used more soon. What I want to say is that its the same thing as you described there, hellions own zealots, zealots own tanks, stalkers own hellions, tanks own stalkers (kinda, depends). And the one who got a better positioning and uses his HTs or Ghosts/Ravens better will win the big clash. Though it seems to be much, much easier for the terran at the moment and it's still very different from the original Starcraft of course.
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Day[9]. if you're looking for a great workout, try my SC2 workout.
The first 2 losses, do 25 pushups.
After that, start a rotation of 25 crunches, 25 squats, 25 pushups.
It works wonders. I've lost 5 pounds already
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Is it just me or does it seem like Day9 is starting to become more and more attracted to protoss? It feels like every daily nowadays includes a protoss and the focus is usually on the protoss too. Terran is in the middle and zerg rarely gets any love.
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Is it just me or does Day9 lagging look like a character in Tom Goes To The Mayor?
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Day[9] talked about some MLG games he hosted early today, does anybody know where I can find these?
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Anyone have any idea what some of the music Day plays before and after his stream?
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EPT
