EPTI mean, Terran shouldn't have to turtle, but they should at least still be the slow, steady push rather than the durable a-move army.
New Battle Report (10/19/2009) - Page 19
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
I mean, Terran shouldn't have to turtle, but they should at least still be the slow, steady push rather than the durable a-move army. | ||
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
The terrans need something to slow them down and create a more static playstyle. What if they got some form of mines back? The need for mines always just made sense as a terran innovation, but now the zerg have mines when they dont really need them Zerg should be aggressive, not sitting around waiting for some lone terran infantry to wander into a trap. | ||
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Von
United States363 Posts
 Both of the game, and of the pro-sports scene. I am more of a spectator than a player. But pretty hardcore. I am throughly addicted. I love this game probably as much as most of you. And I love the way its turning out. FYI I was also part of a dedicated user community that had a close relationship with Parallax and Volition in developing later versions of Descent. I founded DescentBB.net (one of the first dedicated web based gamer forums back in 97) and fostered a relationship with the lead designers). We did the same thing with them and argued finer points of balance ad nauseum. At one point I was among the top 20 or so players in the world. So I totally get the mentality of the elite hardcore gamer - the elite mentality - and the ravenous way peeps are defending thier positions. Yes I do get how important these things are Hellion: I think this is a great unit. I like the concept: it has the speed of the Vulture for Terran harrass, and has the flamethrower to replace the Firebat and also fullfill a niche close-to-mid ranged unit role. I also understand why they removed the mines (more on that below). Movement - I even like the way it moves. It skitters around the map and its both cute and threatening all at once. I dont see anything wrong with the movement, any more or less than I saw anything wrong with Vulture movement. Art - And I like the way it looks. Its a badass little Terran buggy. And I'm probably not the only relatively new fan / player that thinks the Vulture is one of the geekier / stranger looking units in SC. Honestly the V it is/was kind of odd looking. I think ya'll are just emotionally attached to it. Really .. you're just used to the way it looks and its comforting. But the buggy is a cooler looking unit. Thor: Here I am more in agreement with the board. The unit is: A) Visually so out of scale with the rest of the units, that it looks strange .. and .. B) Does not seem to have found it's niche in terms of usefullness and strategy. Visually - the scale on both this and the Ultralisk could easily be reduced by 25% or more. Its just ridiculously large. This is (obviously, by watching its movements on screen) causing problems with pathing, and obscuring the battles when things get heated. Reduce the size and this (and the U-lisk) will integrate better into the armies, will path better, and will not obscure the action. Niche - Yes I totally agree that there doesnt seem to be a clear definition - other than replacing the Goliath (which is covered by the Viking) - providing long range assault (which is covered by the Tank) - and being a meatshield (which, is not a good enough purpose by itself). Is it a ground based Battlecruiser than? So why do you need it at all, the BC is already the late game FU unit. Mobility I totally see the point about the lack of mines and other positioning elements changing the nature of the gameplay. Mines are one of the elements that gave the Terrans identity; it allowed them to focus on slowly gaining positional advantage and moving out in that way. I just watched a wicked Flash vs Firebat hero match and I totally enjoyed it. It was about 50 minutes long. However ... Not everyone likes this kind of match. I've seen plenty of posts about this very thing. There are plenty of peeps who dont like TvT for this reason, or even TvP I'm sure. So I think Blizz has opted to make SC2 more about mobility and less about positional advantage. They are weighting the game play more towards a lot of action taking place at multiple points on the screen, made viable by all three races having increased mobility. Hence the removal of the mines. Some are going to like this, some are not ... but this may tend to make games a bit more dynamic to both play and watch, and may make games (as a whole) quicker to finish. Its a game design philosophy and this is one they have probably given a lot of thought to. I wouldn't count on it being changed. Personally I think its going to work out fine with some tweaking. I totally agree that the pathing of the units in battles has to be majorly tweaked as time goes by in order for it to work out the way they are hoping it will ... | ||
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ForTheSwarm
United States556 Posts
Good to see more battle reports though. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
You make some very good points, but there are a few things I think a lot of people may disagree with. I'm in no way trying to speak for everyone else, but here's some things that are probably on the forefront of most people's minds. First the Vulture. I have to agree that a lot of the hate towards the hellion is probably to do with nostalgia and connection to the vulture. However, the main issue is the fact that it doesn't seem to be able to micro the same way the vulture did, ie attacking and moving smoothly. That's the main issue most people have with the hellion. Second: mobility. I agree that SC2 is intended to be more mobile and faster paced than SC. However, the Terran's entire niche is about the slow, steady push (when going mech anyways). By giving them the amount of mobility they have now, they're starting to feel like the Protoss, except with stronger hitting units. Terran in SC was literally all about positioning; I'd argue more so than the other two races. Yes, perhaps positioning should have its importance diminished in SC2, but its importance to the Terran is practically non-existent in the BRs. That's basically a revamp of the Terran identity. Terran should be more mobile in SC2, but positioning should still be very, very core to the Terran army. I agree with the removal of the mines, but from the recent battle reports it seems as if all the Terran army has to do is a-move. The tanks are redundant and rather pointless when you have that Marine, Marauder, Thor combo that just punches through everything. In SC, Terran's position and timing was extremely important. Getting caught out of position was like getting caught with your pants down if you were Terran, a little less so for the other races. Now, it's like positioning doesn't even matter for the Terran. | ||
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Spawkuring
United States755 Posts
The reason why the Terran identity has been weakened is because Blizzard has focused too much on highly durable units while still maintaining all of the Terran's signature firepower: Mauraders with as much HP as a Protoss unit, Thors that exceed even the most powerful Protoss units in durability and strength, and Mauraders that can demolish both light and heavy units alike due to their slowing grenades and bonus damage against armor. In all honesty I don't blame David Kim for avoiding making too many siege tanks. Why bother when you can just mass Mauraders that are cheaper, easier to build, have almost as much HP, and can probably kill units just as well as the siege tank due to their stimpacks, slowing effect, and healing from Medevacs. In order to fix this problem, Blizzard needs to step back and re-evaluate where they're going with all these units. I don't necessarily dislike the Maurader in concept, but it's way too powerful in its current form. A Terran infantry unit should NEVER be as strong as a Protoss unit, yet in the current stage of the game that's exactly what we have. And of course the Thor I just dislike entirely in its current state. If it's going to be a huge "OMG" unit, then it should be kept rare and hard to get. Right now it seems like it wants to be a part of the regular Terran arsenal, and I just think that's stepping on the Protoss' toes too much. So to summarize, Terrans need to stop pretending that they're Protoss. Terrans should be moderately fragile with most of their strength being their long-range firepower and map control. A little extra mobility is fine, but a Terran that doesn't rely on positional gameplay is a Terran that's not living up to Starcraft's legacy. P.S: As a more quirky suggestion, I actually think they should try making Reapers as the Vulture's spiritual successor instead of the Hellion. Make Reaper mines like spider mines and only give them one mine each. Perhaps give the Hellion a chance to gain a more diverse role since it seems very plain at the moment. Right now the Hellion seems to be in the game for no reason other than to show off the fire physics. | ||
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Count of Hell
Hungary7 Posts
The two Stalkers fired the transport ship ( 7:00-7:30 ) like hell but no damage. They could kill that easily but the transport run away with Hellions. I have stopped watching this video around 8:00. This was for me enough. | ||
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whyohwhy
60 Posts
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On October 22 2009 22:19 whyohwhy wrote: The vulture is a good unit because when micro'd properly it can do damage while almost not stopping moving at all, hence a very good harassment unit. The hellion is nowhere close, as evidenced by this new BR. On the other hand the flamethrower probably works like the firebat's and has AoE damage. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
That said.. I honestly don't think the Terran should have a large size unit on the field. Zerg have a large melee unit, Protoss have a large ranged unit. Terran should have neither. Or a large flying unit. Oh wait.... they do... Get that fu..ing Thor out of the game already! | ||
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aeroH
United States1034 Posts
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On October 22 2009 21:51 Count of Hell wrote: This video is bulls**t ! The two Stalkers fired the transport ship ( 7:00-7:30 ) like hell but no damage. They could kill that easily but the transport run away with Hellions. I have stopped watching this video around 8:00. This was for me enough. You are being absolutely ridiculous. Why do you care so much about balance in the alpha state. Shit is going to change so much in beta. Just fucking enjoy it for what it is. An enjoyable game with pretty psi storms and nukes. | ||
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PobTheCad
Australia893 Posts
nuke seems a little OP but otherwise the game looks good. | ||
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
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immacolate
Serbia199 Posts
- why are all the resources now shown on the mini-map like in WC 3. are the kids that are going to buy this game so stupid that they cannot scout for themselves, or perceive the concept of symmetrical positions on the map? - why is even a map like LT with huge wide open space in the middle tweaked so that it looks like any random WC3 map, with some stupid corridors and narrow passages all over the place? there was even a forest on the fucking hill above 12 o'clock base. - the sound in this game is terrible. i swear to god this sounded like Dune 2000 or C&C 2, with a bunch of cheap futuristic effects deprived of any identity. even siege tank fire sounded like children's toy. - while we are at the siege tank, was that wide red circle around it actually its firing range that is now visible?. will this work only in spectator mode, or you can see range of every unit while playing? - zealots look like some comedic combination between a waiter and a jedi with that flaming psi blade in right hand and unnatural position of their left hands. oh, and the sound of their attacks is just laughable. - there are too many pointless animations or light effects. for example, there is some shit spinning around the pylon, and some stupid blue light below every protoss probe. this game will NEVER be an esport that spectators would enjoy with all this useless crap moving and shining all over the place. - i hate how health bar looks. it was hard for me to determine how many hit points are left on any unit at any point in time. oh, and that terran dropship really refused to die, after being hit a shitload of times by those lousy excuses for dragoons. - how to fuck did the terran have so many nukes? this looked like 3 or 4 silos in action. are the nukes now produced in 10 seconds? no, I did not bother to read unit and tech trees, they will change those at least 57 times before a full version of the game comes out anyway. - the commentators are morons. they were acting like that little tank and dropship micro was the most skillful move in the universe. evar. - as we all know, david kim is truly a bonjwa, but that protoss player sucked. he could not even block his ramp against 2 vulture wannabes, and he saw them coming 20 seconds ago. - i see no point to concept of xel naga watch towers. with so many fast units that teleport and jump all over the place, why would you really need this feature in the game? - i am not sure about units on low ground not being able to return fire to the high ground without a help from observers.yes, it is nice to jump and blink up and down with the units, but still, you are now basically forcing the players to make "jumping" units so that they could defend from high ground harassment and shit. i mean, siege tank from low ground cannot hit a templar on the hill? hello?? it seems to me like everyone already has their firm opinion about SC 2 (I hate it, thank you), and nothing that is written on this forum will change their mind one way or the other, but I am really disappointed with how this looks like. I am not surprised that beta is being delayed over and over again, because to be honest, this joke cannot be the sequel to the best RTS game of all times, can it? | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5456 Posts
On October 23 2009 11:34 immacolate wrote: - zealots look like some comedic combination between a waiter and a jedi You know, I always Zealots looked weird too, but couldn't quite find a proper description. This is perfect! | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 23 2009 11:34 immacolate wrote: I would really, REALLY love to be excited about SC 2, but month after month, BR after BR this game looks more and more like the worst pile of crap ever. - why are all the resources now shown on the mini-map like in WC 3. are the kids that are going to buy this game so stupid that they cannot scout for themselves, or perceive the concept of symmetrical positions on the map? - why is even a map like LT with huge wide open space in the middle tweaked so that it looks like any random WC3 map, with some stupid corridors and narrow passages all over the place? there was even a forest on the fucking hill above 12 o'clock base. - the sound in this game is terrible. i swear to god this sounded like Dune 2000 or C&C 2, with a bunch of cheap futuristic effects deprived of any identity. even siege tank fire sounded like children's toy. - while we are at the siege tank, was that wide red circle around it actually its firing range that is now visible?. will this work only in spectator mode, or you can see range of every unit while playing? - zealots look like some comedic combination between a waiter and a jedi with that flaming psi blade in right hand and unnatural position of their left hands. oh, and the sound of their attacks is just laughable. - there are too many pointless animations or light effects. for example, there is some shit spinning around the pylon, and some stupid blue light below every protoss probe. this game will NEVER be an esport that spectators would enjoy with all this useless crap moving and shining all over the place. - i hate how health bar looks. it was hard for me to determine how many hit points are left on any unit at any point in time. oh, and that terran dropship really refused to die, after being hit a shitload of times by those lousy excuses for dragoons. - how to fuck did the terran have so many nukes? this looked like 3 or 4 silos in action. are the nukes now produced in 10 seconds? no, I did not bother to read unit and tech trees, they will change those at least 57 times before a full version of the game comes out anyway. - the commentators are morons. they were acting like that little tank and dropship micro was the most skillful move in the universe. evar. - as we all know, david kim is truly a bonjwa, but that protoss player sucked. he could not even block his ramp against 2 vulture wannabes, and he saw them coming 20 seconds ago. - i see no point to concept of xel naga watch towers. with so many fast units that teleport and jump all over the place, why would you really need this feature in the game? - i am not sure about units on low ground not being able to return fire to the high ground without a help from observers.yes, it is nice to jump and blink up and down with the units, but still, you are now basically forcing the players to make "jumping" units so that they could defend from high ground harassment and shit. i mean, siege tank from low ground cannot hit a templar on the hill? hello?? it seems to me like everyone already has their firm opinion about SC 2 (I hate it, thank you), and nothing that is written on this forum will change their mind one way or the other, but I am really disappointed with how this looks like. I am not surprised that beta is being delayed over and over again, because to be honest, this joke cannot be the sequel to the best RTS game of all times, can it? Firstly, you could see mineral patches on the mini-map in SC1 too -.- So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with your first point. Perhaps you dislike the fact that the entire map is revealed at the start of the game except it's just under fog of war? Most people that I've heard from really don't have a problem with that feature so, iunno. Second, what exactly is wrong with having some aesthetic aspects to the game? Yes, there's a forest. So? Does it impact the game play in any way? I think not. In addition, the pylon animation is simply an extension of the pylon animation in SC1. In SC1 the pylons already had the rings, they just made them spin a little in SC2. Probes are also supposed to float so I'm guessing that's where the blue light came from. Zealots, well, either you like the design or not. It's your choice. Also, I thought the health bar was perfectly fine...it's the first time I've heard anyone complain about it at least. Third, the tank's range is only viewable by the controlling player and observers I believe... I'm not exactly happy with that mechanism either as now it requires less skill to utilize tanks and other long-range units. The sound effects currently in place are hopefully just placeholders because, yes, a lot of them sound stupid and wimpy. Stalker damage as with nukes are subject to balance and I think they'll be worked out during beta with mass testing. I believe there was another thread discussing the effects of the new high ground mechanics. The purpose of the new mechanic is to remove the randomness of "missing" from the game, which no RTS should have. Also, in both SC1 and SC2 you can't see up cliffs and in the BR the Terran player never bothered to scan the high ground for the templar and thus never saw them. As a result, his tanks couldn't shoot them. In addition, I believe tanks needed a spotter or a comsat scan in order to shoot units on high ground in SC1 so I'm not sure where all your grief about that is from. | ||
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Jayde
Marshall Islands104 Posts
 Anyway, I am really excited to see it as I have enjoyed all the other battle reports immensely! | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
Replay overlays allow you to see all current player control groups when you have that player selected. ![[image loading]](http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6158/income.jpg) | ||
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