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On October 21 2009 09:51 DeCoup wrote:
- A small patch of the flammable liquid which the hellions use for their weapons (dropped directly benieth the hellion). It would be visible, last maybe 10-15 seconds and do nothing unless lit on fire by the hellion weapon. It could not be targeted so an enemy (or your own unit) must be in or on the other side of the patch to be attacked to start the fire. You would need to be careful casting it in combat as your hellions may auto-attack an enemy while excreeting it, setting it on fire under your own vehicle causing damage to you. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=92694
Something like that?
Also lurkers are probably going to need to be back at tier 2 if we're aiming for these map control improvements.
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On October 21 2009 08:17 Captain Peabody wrote:
Eh...I'm not sure this is going to be that big of a problem.
Siege Tanks are still in the game, and will still play a big role for T. Even with Thors added to the mix, the Terran army will still be a lot about positioning, with the Thors in front absorbing damage and "pushing" forward to give your Siege Tanks room. And honestly, even if the Thors at some point start to actually replace the Siege Tanks in terms of damage (despite not having Splash), they can always have their damage nerfed. Besides that, the Thor works great, and its large size and role as "meatshield" actually creates possibilities and necessities for positioning, and even more when combined with Siege Tanks.
Biggest potential problem in this regard, I think, is just the Marauder, which seems to be just a little too all-around powerful and massable, while also not being that interesting position-based unit in terms of micro--but if they really do just start replacing everything else on the battlefield, they can be nerfed too. And frankly, I think a nerf has been long overdue for these guys: they should be Marine support units and fair counters against armored units--not the meat-shield, unit-slowing destroyers of anything that moves that they are now. I fully expect this to get corrected very early on in Beta, though.
Basically, what I'm saying now is that the mix of units we have right now is fine regarding "positioning" micro, and that the problem is more to do with balance of the units than anything else. It'll work out as long as the designers are on the ball--and Dustin has mentioned several times that they've noticed that players don't really try to "hold ground" in SC2 as they do in SC1, and that they aren't sure whether or not they like it or not. So they're definitely aware of the potential issues. Again, though, Beta is going to totally break and then remake this game. It's gonna be awesome to watch.
You are completely missing the point. I don't know how I can make this more clear. Anyways, oh well.
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Osaka27148 Posts
I just wish they would say "workers" rather than "harvesters".
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You are completely missing the point. I don't know how I can make this more clear. Anyways, oh well.
I understand what you are saying; you have said it several times. I get it.
I said that the siege tank and its "mobile static defense" is still in the game, and will still play a big role, and that the Thor (due to its large size) also will require some pre-battle positioning in order to maximize, especially in conjunction with static siege tanks. I also said that the Marauder was the biggest problem in the equation, as it is a unit that won't really require any pre-battle positioning or position-based micro. I then said in conclusion the mix of units we had is fine regarding "static mobile defense," position-based micro and pre-battle positioning, and the like, but the problems are currently mostly balance-based.
So yes, I understand what you're saying. But thanks anyway...
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What happened to all the fuss about the proton charge, seemed like it did not really do much in terms of the over powered game killer we all thought we would see. Or did he just fail to David Kim's epic-ness?
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On October 21 2009 12:52 Pancia wrote:
What happened to all the fuss about the proton charge, seemed like it did not really do much in terms of the over powered game killer we all thought we would see. Or did he just fail to David Kim's epic-ness? I don't ever remember seeing much fuss about PC being overpowered. I've seen discussions of its potential redundancy, but not much about imbalance. The only thing I can think of that discussed PC balance recently was that terrible, 8000-word essay that showed up on SCLegacy and got dismantled in a day.
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Awesome BR!!
Love the fast pace, some utilization of micro, nukes and psi-storm are fantastic.
Obviously that's not the final High Templar unit animation, so no need to panic.
I know a lot of people are saying blink is a lot more useful then the jetpacks, but keep in mind that blink needs to be researched, those jetpacks are ready the moment you can build reapers, which is fairly early.
I know a lot of ppl are pointing out fault, but I'm just satisfied to see some real progression from BR #3 to BR #4. It's truly looking like starcraft now.
But this post can't be completely full of rainbows and lolly-pops, because:
"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking."
The Thor looked a little bit awkward, but by the constant replenishment David Kim was implementing to the Thors, with the fact that the only air units Toss had was Observers and the occasional Warp Prism, then they must of been doing a lot of the damage in those encounters.
I like the Hellion as a unit, it's just the movements is out of place. It's almost jittery, like the driver is seriously indecisive, or just has serious spasms lol...
But if all the main faults of a battle report, are visual ones, then my god, balancing is on its way. 
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Give Reapers an energy pool and the option to lay their current D8 charge, and the option to lay a permanent mine!
Give Helions an energy pool and the option to lay a fire trail, or give a short speed boost!
Give Thors the ability to carry infantry!
Maybe, at least. Just throwing ideas out there ...
I know some people don't want more abilities, but those are pretty clear visually, so I don't think they'd be hard to follow.
Or maybe I just want to make Terran overpowered ... But I do know that a lot of the units fill very similar niches instead of having synergy with each other. Units like the Marine, Marauder, and Thor are too similar for me. Can anyone who's played SC2 say whether or it's worth it to make all three in the late game?
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the high ground thing mixed with the nuke is just not right. feels almost like command and conquer where u build a superweapon, then point and shoot
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I actually like the thor's ability to carry infantry, but don't know how that would fit into gameplay balance.
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The thor needs to be either smaller, or clumsier/rarer. The way they turn around so fast doesnt look right, especially when theres so many of them together...
Its arms go inside the ruins sometimes when walking close to them too.
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the thor is a BIG area where blizzard can improve on. its current role as heavy AA doesn't seem to be very useful. it's just a big piece of meat-shielding junk right now.
i was actually very excited when the thor was first announced as it brought back nostalgia for the old mechwarrior series. they should make the thor stronger, but more expensive and slower (like BC slow). its design seems to point it towards a walking weapons battery, but really, i'm not sure how its role is gonna work out. they can't overlap its role with that of the tank, but having it as purely for its AA role seems a bit of a waste, as does making it just a large meatshield...
the thor can be so much i mean, read the lore release by blizzard about it:
+ Show Spoiler +Within a few hours Agent Trey was free and clear, carrying vital information about the Dominion's most significant military development since the Brood War: Project Thor. The micro-spy images showed a huge bipedal war machine armed with two giant particle beams and a dorsal artillery battery that wouldn't be out of place on a battleship.
i really hope the beta will be able to really fine-tune a place for the thor.
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Hellion just needs to stop being a 4 wheeled buggy or a completely redo its animation. It is were a hover unit, people will whine much less even if it doesn't get mines.
Thor need a completely new model that looks less stupid and moves in a sensible way.
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Mobile Static Defense: try TvZ
With the mega mobility of protoss charge+blink+cliffwalk plus hardshields, static defenses don't work too well. On the other hand marauders are like hydras against the protoss.....
TvZ have far greater potential for mobile static defenses, with Zerg creep drop + spine crawler push or just plain creep drop traps, and seige tank will be needed to deal with the ultras that the terran otherwise have no counter. Surface area control is also more important with Zerg than with protoss.
With Zerg automatically getting automatic air superiority via corrupter (no tech needed, dedicated unit straight out of lair) + overlord scouting air routes at higher multitasking skill, I'd think that bio-mech/mech would work best. I'd be laughing if pure bio + air gets owned by spine crawler pushes to death... (aka range 7 ultralisk at lair tech lol) Tanks counters all Zerg ground units after all..., unlike protoss with hard shields/chargezeals.
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The Thor turns SO much faster than when it was first introduced. Looks like they had a lot of balancing problems with that initially..
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Can someone clarify for me what the consequences would be of making the hellion a hover unit might be? I don't understand why this would affect the unit's role.
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The hellion looks bad and moves bad, but the unit role is just fine. (oh, faster firebat)
A buggy that make 180 degree turns on its axis in a split second? Absurdity.
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Thor: cool concept, flawed gameplay.
Hellion: boring / bad concept, nice gameplay.
Medivac: why cant it just heal units inside? It would make it more believeable and make it better gameplay imo.
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The Hellion needs to become a hover vehicle, and it's movement and attack animation needs fixing; it looks ridiculously glitchy.
As far as the Thor goes, why does it exist in the game? Does it still have the castable AOE attack where it bombards a location with huge amounts of splash damage? That would be pretty cool, it could be used to cover retreats, or manipulate the enemy army into moving into certain areas of the map when avoiding. You could also set traps with it.
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The Battle report was nice, but to me it clearly showed that the Hellion and the Thor don't add anithing to the game (with the Thor even taking sth away). My suggestions:
Make the Hellion slower, more sturdy-looking (Space-Buggies, I mean seriously?) and mount the Flamethrower on top of the vehicle. Instead of spinning the vehicle, turn the Flamethrower towards moving targets and allow it to shoot while moving! I know that this will make worker raids a bit more difficult with the Hellion ... but more satisfying when pulled off (plus Terran has the Reaper for that). In the Zerg release bring back Vultures to fill the niche and problem solved.
The Thor instead is useless imo. I liked the idea in the beginning, but seeing it now, I am completely sure it needs to be scrapped. All it's abilities either overlap or take away some of the fun! Its building-damage-ability overlaps with Nukes/ Siege Tanks/ Banshees, it's ground damage makes unsieged tanks / Hellions somewhat superfluous, while it's air damage makes the Viking /offensive towering useless. Just from it's mere set of abilities it's more of a "jack-of-all-trades", which is plain boring. The only role I could see for him, would be a mothership-esque endgame super-unit, which is fun in single-player and not used (thereby not in the way) in multiplayer.
P.S: Protoss looks fine, only the Nullifyer model seems completely out of place ...
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On October 21 2009 14:28 onewingedmoogle wrote:
the high ground thing mixed with the nuke is just not right. feels almost like command and conquer where u build a superweapon, then point and shoot
I don't get it? How does the high ground change effect nukes at all? Seems like it would be the same to me.
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EPT
