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1st:
I've suggested this a few times over the last couple of years in various threads but since recently seeing the new B.net 2.0 screenshots I have to get more input since my idea wasn't implemented.
Since nobody likes to play random (because you need to learn 9 matchups) it seems underused. So in order to create a more fun, diverse game to play, I am basically suggesting to have more than one random option.
The other options will be like this: (click images to expand)
These are good for the players who want to play a random choice but perhaps suck at the 3rd race. ex; I like zerg and toss but dislike terran. So just on that 33% chance that I'll get terran I won't pick random. Furthermore, some players may do it anyways and just leave if they get the 'bad' race. I'm sure we've all started a game and the player left the game asap. This is not only annoying and angering for both players but it wastes time and server bandwidth.
This is not only better for the player choosing what races he wants, but for the player playing against a random.
Another big reason why no one picks random is because frankly everyone on b.net/iccup are scared to lose and don't want to play versus a random opponent because they rely so heavily on their perfect copy-cat build orders. (this is just the way I've see it, no offense if this is not why you don't like to play randoms). This promotes adaptable players higher into the ladder. (slightly more skilled to defeat randoms)
So this also makes it easier on the race picker who needs to quickly decide on a safe build order. Instead of a build that needs to be safe from any race, it only needs to be safe from the two. ex; Zerg plays vs a R-TP he can safely FE without worrying about getting 5 or 9 pooled.
And yet another element of game play is created as well, If a player who normally chooses R-ZP and the other player also normally chooses R-TZ Then you could have a number of different matchups and pregame deception and tactics going on.
You could get ZvZ, ZvT, PvZ, PvT which is still a little easier to practice.
In closing, I think it just adds one more element to competitive gameplay and opens up previously underused abilities in the game. It'll be more fun, it'll be more deceptive, it'll be easier to play with/against randoms.
Extra tidbits- Assuming the match making will be AMM there won't really be a 'boot the random players' anyways but still it is better to have more racial options.
During the load screen it will say Random: Zerg/Terran or whatever the choice was.
Since we start with more workers, scouting will be much faster and will be able to adjust before committing to a specific build usually.
Poll: Add two race randoms?
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Yes, but..
(Vote): No, but..
(Vote): Other
PS-
Another point brought up on IRC a while back when I was discussing this, is that all random should reveal what race the person randoms to. This is another discussion in itself (I think it is bad idea personally). But this could also be applied to the three new 2 race randoms as well as the standard 3 race random.
I am not suggesting this in this thread though, so don't count this in the poll.
2nd Suggestion:
I know we all love that replays now include text but it sure is a pain in the ass to read or type amongst it when watching a rep with a friend especially if you are discussing strategy both when you played the game and when you watch the rep.
So my suggestion is a simple one:
Just show the observer chat on the left side of the screen in it's own text box, and have the current live chat among the replayers on the right side.
Or even have the boxes to move around like this other game no one has ever heard of.
+ Show Spoiler +
So even observers could have their own chat box separate from the players in a live game, and then even in a replay we could have 3 separate boxes for replayers, previous observers, and the players.
Poll: Separate Chat boxes
(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Other
edit- It would also be nice to have some added options to mute players in game and replays. Often times some observer is spamming or being annoying.
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Yah it would be cool if you can select Protoss/Zerg for random and never worry about Terran (since I do dabble with Zerg on occassion), but I really don't think that people will be encouraged to play random since to be good you typically don't multi-race seriously. People are still not going to want to play against a random opponent either since the game would still be 'imbalanced.' Could you imagine if this random tactic was allowed in SC and your opponent was a random Zerg/Protoss and you're Toss (for example). FE won't work every time, and most standard PvZ relies on the FE build, but your opponent could be 2x gating.
(I'm really not trying to shit all over your thread, don't take it like that  )
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First impression was Yes to the 2 race pick but then the more I thought about it; your own reason for why people don't want to play random is still valid for a 50% race pick and therefor doesnt really add anything to the game. I think it's unnessesary to have this option, better to stick with the original choice forcing people to either just practice with one race or play for fun picking random. This 2 race choice adds nothing to the competitive gaming imo, people will still stick to just one race.
As for your other option I don't find it that annoying but yes, separate chat boxes is a good idea.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
Personally, I think as long as your race is revealed before the game when you random there is no problem.
Being able to truly random with 2 races is slightly imba because it is enough to make starting build orders 50/50 already.
But if races are revealed at the start, then there is no reason that shouldn't be an option to allow people who just want to mess around with more than 1 race without trying to eek out a cheap advantange.
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Ok well if not for competitive gaming then at least for casual and fun gamers, like I said.
Protoss doesn't have to open with FE you know, stop being such a wimp. Half the point of going random is to gain a pregame advantage via keeping intel off of you. The downside of this is that you have to be a better all around gamer to be fluent in more matchups.
I never understood why people are so pussy when it comes to random, I even play zerg and am willing to play any random players. (I just default to 9pool) which is fine for every matchup.
And besides, like you said it is not easy or common for pros to play random. This is because it's a lot harder to master all the extra matchups. Do you think if this was added to begin with that we might actually have had some 2race random pros?
I would have a ton more fun and respect watching pros who were playing random. Wouldn't you? Shit, if that guy was top ranked kespa he'd probably be my all time favorite player.
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btw, since there is a random option already (which is far worse for the random haters) and assuming this will be an AMM ladder you're going to be playing randoms whether you like it or not. You have no choice unless you wanna leave and lose points.
So what difference does it make if we add more random options, THEY ACTUALLY MAKE IT EASIER FOR YOU.
With 22 NO votes (versus 8 yes) I wanna see some valid arguments against this..
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If the loading screen reveals the other players race even if he picked random I would say it could work.
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I'm in favor of this, but with a different interface:
You pick either 1, 2 or 3 of the race buttons. Each one highlights when it's selected. The computer then randoms between the selected options (even when there is only one selected ofc).
What do you guys think about a race button for the opponent? In SC, I frequently encountered games that said '1on1 LT TvZ you Z' or something to that extent. Good for practicing one matchup...
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On September 14 2009 18:43 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:
Personally, I think as long as your race is revealed before the game when you random there is no problem.
Being able to truly random with 2 races is slightly imba because it is enough to make starting build orders 50/50 already.
But if races are revealed at the start, then there is no reason that shouldn't be an option to allow people who just want to mess around with more than 1 race without trying to eek out a cheap advantange.
I'm all for races being revealed during the 5 seconds of countdown and in the loading screen.
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You should also be able to set the chance! Like:
24% of getting zerg
15% of getting toss
10% of getting terran
12% of getting random terran or protoss
19% of getting random protoss or zerg
11% of getting random zerg or terran
and 8% of getting a random random!
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I personally don't like playing against random characters. In starcraft 2 there will only be one random factor in a game this time around, and that is your initial starting location/initial scouting direction. With random races, you've increased the likelihood that I will lose to a much worse player due to outright bad luck.
Also, and this is purely philosophical, I like that players have race "identities". Jaedong is a zerg. If randomness confers too many benefits, such as no bad third race, many people will start playing random as a strategy. That would make it harder to follow a league and its players. Is jaedong going to beat flash? Well it depends on what race he happens to spawn that game. If he gets zerg he'll win for sure, but if he gets terran he might lose. Oh jaedong lost the finals because he spawned terran 3 out of 4 matches. Bad luck.
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O like de 2 random races.
There is no reason to reveal the race, thats the point, dont know what race the guy is playing.
And if u r a good player, or even a medium one, u ll scout and find what race is or get scout and find what race is.
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On September 14 2009 21:18 aseq wrote:
I'm in favor of this, but with a different interface:
You pick either 1, 2 or 3 of the race buttons. Each one highlights when it's selected. The computer then randoms between the selected options (even when there is only one selected ofc).
.
I like this idea, and the race of ALL opponents should either be revealed or concealed regardless of whether they pick 1,2, or 3 races
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United States12237 Posts
This isn't gonna happen anyway. There was a big uproar over this before war3's beta dropped. A bunch of players asked why they couldn't just select two or three of the races to random between, and the response was "if you select random, you have an innate advantage in that they don't know your race, but that's counterbalanced by you possibly drawing your weaker race". Revealing the race beforehand would really kill the surprise factor of random, you should just pick your race in that situation anyway.
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I dont like the idea of adding more stats of this kind.
(Win/loss with: Z/P/T/Random/RandomZT/RandomZP/Random/PT)
The purpose of random is to be random, not "random but not this or that..."
If you want 2 races, just flip a coin :p
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I've often thought of the two race random thing, because I am absolutely horrendous at zerg. I want the advantage of them not knowing if I'm T or P, but still have it randomized ^^
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On September 15 2009 05:23 Icks wrote:
I dont like the idea of adding more stats of this kind.
(Win/loss with: Z/P/T/Random/RandomZT/RandomZP/Random/PT)
The purpose of random is to be random, not "random but not this or that..."
If you want 2 races, just flip a coin :p
You wouldn't need v. "Random" stats.... if You pick random and get Protoss and I pick Random and get Zerg, that is a PvZ game for you and a ZvP game for me.
especially if Random + "Picked" are either
Both concealed from the opponent (my opponent Picked Protoss, but I don't know it, just like he doesn't know I randomed Zerg)
OR
Both revealed to the opponent (my opponent Picked Protoss, and I know it, just like he knows I randomed Zerg)
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i'd say i'd want it, but i think it falls along the lines of cheating...heh heh. so i shouldn't want it and neither should they make it this way. i did vote yes, though, haha. but thinking back on it...it's not the same as random and you'd have another 3 races marked as you're playing...because random counts as a race when recording your wins or whatever in war3 bnet...if they don't record any random race wins at all instead just your race that you randomed, i suppose that's ok...but i don't expect them to do this so adding 3 more random race options would be a bad idea overall.
not saying i don't want the option, but i don't think it's right to have it.
chat box thing kinda sounds like a good idea. why not put saved chat from the replay on the right side of the screen or something like that? anyway draggable boxes are fine too, i suppose...
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Yeah I like both suggestions, as long as the random race thing is shown there shouldn't be any problem with it.
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No... random is supposed to be random, you either play it all and face the consequences or play your two good races alternating every now and then.
face it, random = coward.
unless the race you got appears in the loading screen, its not cool.
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