Nothing. Dustin already said it is entirely possible and yes this has been theorized to great length already. Tbh i dont think anyone will go back to BW (at least casual->moderates) once they get mbs and automine haha...
Browder said its possible in the game play panel. However, as for competitive play, sc2 melee will be for competitiion, and then someone can just recrreate python or something with the setting to create all the old units and what not.
I'm not gonna go back simply because I want something new. In fact, I wouldn't complain if the expansions made bigger changes to the game than what we have now (not so much in terms of how the game actually plays - ie I don't really want heroes - but slowly replacing old units with equally interesting new units, and maybe doing some funky stuff with maps etc..).
On August 28 2009 06:43 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm not gonna go back simply because I want something new. In fact, I wouldn't complain if the expansions made bigger changes to the game than what we have now (not so much in terms of how the game actually plays - ie I don't really want heroes - but slowly replacing old units with equally interesting new units, and maybe doing some funky stuff with maps etc..).
Oh and the lack of AMM would suck.
Blizzard said they were contemplating making AMM (Or at least some sort of match-filtering interface) for popular custom game modes.
Although someone will very likely recreate Brood War in SC2, chances are that not a lot of people will play it on a regular basis. The majority will most likely play SC2 melee, while BW "purists" will likely stick to the original Brood War.
However, I must admit, I would be very happy if someone recreated the StarCraft and Brood War campaigns in SC2.
Would be really nice to have this, i woudln't mind playing SC1 with 2's gfx engine for some time, at least till everything is perfectly balanced. Yeah it will take a lot of time, but whatever, i love SC
On August 28 2009 06:43 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm not gonna go back simply because I want something new. In fact, I wouldn't complain if the expansions made bigger changes to the game than what we have now (not so much in terms of how the game actually plays - ie I don't really want heroes - but slowly replacing old units with equally interesting new units, and maybe doing some funky stuff with maps etc..).
Oh and the lack of AMM would suck.
Blizzard said they were contemplating making AMM (Or at least some sort of match-filtering interface) for popular custom game modes.
Yes, I considered that, but I do not think a direct BW clone would be that likely to get that kind of treatment.. it's a bit close to the official game wouldn't you say?
Keep in mind they probably won't be able to recapture some of the gameplay 'glitches' are characteristic SC:BW, unless the Data editor is powerful enough to change the engine of the game itself. For example, it seems unlikely they'll be able to replicate mutalisk stacking.
Regardless of how much time was spent in the SC2 editor, it will be impossible to make it even remotely similar to SC1.
Unit AI, unit movement, precise timing / gamespeed, unit stacking, terrain interaction, building "simcity," etc. were all built on an old framework that can't be duplicated within the SC2 engine.
Well, I don't think the pathfinding routines from SC are possible to recreate in SC2 since modern pathfinding is likely to be GPU-bound and therefore, impossible to modify. SC2 pathfinding, unit clustering and easy surrounds are my #1 SC2 cons at the moment. Not that SC pathfinding is perfect, but it sure as hell is something we got used to and it allows room for large army micro we all love - not "blink that stalker, blink this stalker" which any newbie can learn in a matter of hours, but true micro control that only good players have a hang on - army positioning and flanking has more effect on battle outcome than anything else. SC2 feels (at least on video) a lot different mainly due to that, not automine or MBS.
Anyway, the point is that modifications to pathfinding are a no-no even with all the might on the new editor (unless they allow you to execute GPGPU instructions which I highly doubt) and with that in mind, SC in SC2 falls apart. Unit AI is another example (even though tightly linked with the former) - if many units didn't require manual targeting (take reaver) in SC, they would just rape everything in sight when massed. Even if you recreate the reaver in the new engine with exact stats, better unit AI will break the delicate balance to hell. I'm not talking about smartcasting, just target acquisition. Smartcasting seems pretty easy to disable, but the latter is not.
i think the point everyone is trying to make is there is no way to make an exact port because of the new engine features
they said in early blizzcasts that you gained minerals too fast when they had it set to 8 minerals per drone, and this was because of the ai pathing. to make a BW from SC2 would include balance chages such as lowering the minerals gathered to get the timing closer to BW
On August 28 2009 06:43 FrozenArbiter wrote: I'm not gonna go back simply because I want something new. In fact, I wouldn't complain if the expansions made bigger changes to the game than what we have now (not so much in terms of how the game actually plays - ie I don't really want heroes - but slowly replacing old units with equally interesting new units, and maybe doing some funky stuff with maps etc..).
Oh and the lack of AMM would suck.
Blizzard said they were contemplating making AMM (Or at least some sort of match-filtering interface) for popular custom game modes.
Yes, I considered that, but I do not think a direct BW clone would be that likely to get that kind of treatment.. it's a bit close to the official game wouldn't you say?
I think that aproach was to allow the creation of a matchmaking service for ANY map - it might require money though.
I don't understand the point of making bw again, when you have something better. I mean probably doing it for fun. But I doubt it will game much popularity.
On August 28 2009 07:28 BluzMan wrote: Well, I don't think the pathfinding routines from SC are possible to recreate in SC2 since modern pathfinding is likely to be GPU-bound and therefore, impossible to modify. SC2 pathfinding, unit clustering and easy surrounds are my #1 SC2 cons at the moment. Not that SC pathfinding is perfect, but it sure as hell is something we got used to and it allows room for large army micro we all love - not "blink that stalker, blink this stalker" which any newbie can learn in a matter of hours, but true micro control that only good players have a hang on - army positioning and flanking has more effect on battle outcome than anything else. SC2 feels (at least on video) a lot different mainly due to that, not automine or MBS.
Anyway, the point is that modifications to pathfinding are a no-no even with all the might on the new editor (unless they allow you to execute GPGPU instructions which I highly doubt) and with that in mind, SC in SC2 falls apart. Unit AI is another example (even though tightly linked with the former) - if many units didn't require manual targeting (take reaver) in SC, they would just rape everything in sight when massed. Even if you recreate the reaver in the new engine with exact stats, better unit AI will break the delicate balance to hell. I'm not talking about smartcasting, just target acquisition. Smartcasting seems pretty easy to disable, but the latter is not.
I don't disagree with the gist of your post, but what?
On August 28 2009 07:28 BluzMan wrote: if many units didn't require manual targeting (take reaver) in SC
I was pretty sure reaver's will just fire at an enemy if it comes in range. If you're saying they need manual targetting to effectively spread their scarabs, sure. Am I just misunderstanding you?
Anyway, BW in SC2 will probably be done by someone, and some people will play it. A lot of the bug based micro that won't really be doable in the new engine won't matter as much to more casual players. Of course, I don't know how many casual players will want to play BW in SC2 instead of SC2, but there could be some.
Would be nice if you could import the Project Revolution models. They really went out of their way to make them look right, while putting all that effort into a game where it would never work and making it so the models couldn't be used elsewhere (like in SC2). Oh well. I just don't understand the rationale behind spending all that time and not letting the fruits of your labors be put to use.
On August 28 2009 06:52 Jyvblamo wrote: Keep in mind they probably won't be able to recapture some of the gameplay 'glitches' are characteristic SC:BW, unless the Data editor is powerful enough to change the engine of the game itself. For example, it seems unlikely they'll be able to replicate mutalisk stacking.
Or buggy reaver scarabs, or bad dragoon/goliath pathing, or inconvenient casting of multiple psi storms / lockdown / D-Web, or drone drills, or observers over turrets bug, or high templar dance while they fail to archon warp, or dumber worker pathing which changes mining efficiency at different saturation levels...
It would be a fundamentally different game. Might be you'll even like it better. But if you want to play Brood Wars, you need to do so with the Brood Wars program- even the best SC2 custom map will have significant differences with the original game.
On August 28 2009 07:28 BluzMan wrote: if many units didn't require manual targeting (take reaver) in SC
I was pretty sure reaver's will just fire at an enemy if it comes in range. If you're saying they need manual targetting to effectively spread their scarabs, sure. Am I just misunderstanding you?
The point he is trying to make is that the Reaver was balanced around the fact that the poor AI pathfinding affected the Scarabs and caused them to dud if they hit an obstacle or the target ran away. With the SC2 engine, this would no longer be the case. With the improved pathfinding, scarabs would be able to fluently bypass any obstacle and hit the intended target, making Reavers much more powerful and making defence against them much more difficult.
Overall, the entire balance of the game would be change due to such factors. In fact, I would not be suprised if that was the reason why the Reaver was removed from SC2 way back in 2007.So as much as I love the Trilobyte, the concept would just not work properly within a modern engine.
pubbers can't tell the difference but it'll have a totally different feel to the pros. in which case just play SC2, and BW.
somebody will make it but it won't be played too extensively. somebody already tried it for wc3 and it was like a cheap imitation. all the assets look good but it just doesn't come together.
Well SC:2 won't have certain units from BW like dragoons right? Otherwise I guess one could make a 3D BW but I bet it'd be a lot of work doing all the modding.
I thought I remembered reading at some point that when they made the sc2 engine the first thing they did with it as a starting point was to remake brood war and it was completely horrible.
On August 28 2009 06:32 Kennigit wrote: Nothing. Dustin already said it is entirely possible and yes this has been theorized to great length already. Tbh i dont think anyone will go back to BW (at least casual->moderates) once they get mbs and automine haha...
You have the CS 1.6 and CS source differneces... yet 1.6 is more more competitive than source.
I remember from someones game play impression comment that in SC2, the angle of attack doesn't matter as much as it did in sc. IMBA!!!! If you thought Jaedong had killer muta micro before, wait till SC2. It'll also be much easier for everyone to increase their muta micro abilities.
On August 28 2009 11:09 Jonoman92 wrote: Well SC:2 won't have certain units from BW like dragoons right? Otherwise I guess one could make a 3D BW but I bet it'd be a lot of work doing all the modding.
It has been said a thousand times now that the original bw units will be in the editor.
I think it would be pretty fun to mess around with, but not really a good game. So much of Brood War's legendary balance comes from glitches like dud scarabs dodging sprite based projectiles by hopping in and out of transports and decisions made about unit animations that were not made with balance in mind, such as the Dragoon's long pre-firing delay. As an example, take away the Dragoon's pre-firing delay and goons become about twice as strong against early Terran plays such as FD pushes, and Dragoons would be able to just a-move through sparse fields of spider mines. Take away the projectile sprite as well and have the damage be instant, like the Marine or Hydralisk, and Dragoons could a-move through moderately dense spider mine fields. Another example is the way that some building configurations block all units, some block Zealots but not Marines, etc. Blizzard certainly did not set this up intentionally. If all buildings had the collision size of the Pylon, Terran wall-ins wouldn't be possible, and they would probably still be considered an inferior race.
Also, way back when, the Reaver used to work much better. Patch 1.4 screwed up the AI. I'm fairly certain this was unintentional on the part of Blizzard.
On August 28 2009 16:04 HuskyTheHusky wrote: You can make WC2 from WC3... no one ever did though.
Uh... no you can't. Duh, have you even played it?
You can't restrict units to a grid. You can't create the spells that aren't there, such as runes, death coil affecting two targets, polymorph killing flyers when over water, randomly wandering blizzard. You can't add the oil resource and its gathering. You can not emulate building of walls. There's probably a whole lot of other differences that you can't do anything about. It's just not possible to make the new game play identical to the old one.
But even disregarding all this, I still don't see your point. WC2 is not Starcraft, it never got that popular, and even if it were true that no one wanted to re-make it in the newer engine, this is not indicative of the current situation.
I don't really think a clone of BW will be all that good. Lets face it even if you can get it really close to the original it wouldn't be exactly the same. Muta stacking wouldn't work the same way, tons of other minor things wouldn't work the same way and balance would be completely screwed over with the new mass selection system. It just wouldn't work well.
On August 28 2009 16:04 HuskyTheHusky wrote: You can make WC2 from WC3... no one ever did though.
Uh... no you can't. Duh, have you even played it?
You can't restrict units to a grid. You can't create the spells that aren't there, such as runes, death coil affecting two targets, polymorph killing flyers when over water, randomly wandering blizzard. You can't add the oil resource and its gathering. You can not emulate building of walls.
If you've seen the creativity of WC3 map makers, you should know that you can definitely emulate explosive runes and death coil affecting two targets in WC3. Also, Blizzard didn't wander in WC2 (nor does it in WC3), and making a permanent polymorph like the one in WC2 shouldn't be a problem. Building walls would be quite easy, if you've seen how Tower Defense maps can make 1x1 buildings.
Not being able to restrict units to a grid is a real limiting factor, but even the oil resource might be emulated (WC3 editor does allow for a third resource type to be added (usually score when it's used), making the count go up when a certain sea unit does something wouldn't be too hard. And yes, there are enough sea units to emulate the ones in WC2).
IMO, no one emulated WC2 because WC3 is so much better.
it'd be really gimmicky and like others have said you wouldnt be able to recreate the engine glitches in SC1 that made the game so good like mutalisk stacking etc.
On August 28 2009 21:51 PobTheCad wrote: why go back to broodwar? it is a 12 year old game , most people have had their fill of it by now and want something newer! bring on sc2
why would they want to play it? cause its a game of epicness.
On August 28 2009 11:43 iMate wrote: lol they should have the vessel still with T.. could u imagine a 50 stacked muta group and a irridate going into it lol.. gl getting that muta out
Stacking in SC2 isn't the same, you have to constantly click in order to keep them stacked apparently otherwise they just spread out into a neat formation, so I guess all you'd have to do is stop the mutas and pick out the irradiated muta once they auto spread.
If someone actually made something like SC1 (as close as you can get anyway) I'd probably play it with some mates, not much, but from time to time we would probably break it out just for fun.
............. I'm sure that some enthusiast will make SC Broodwar with the new engine. Hell, someone even made it for Warcraft 3. But not many people will play SC2 for Broodwar. IF they want to play the normal game, then they'll just boot up their actual copies.
As many said, its 100% possible. Dont see a reason to talk about it tho, as for many topics conercing sc II, ill briefly tend to shut my mouth since the game aint released and we are just trying to imagine things. Wait until u wake up and play the game, then u can sit down and write.
I don't think any SC2:bw mod will be comparable to SC2 or even the original. I surely think people are ready for something new. SC2 games should be pretty fun to watch and play, I don't think anyone will want to use the same units they have been for the last 10 years unless for a one last nostalgia of bw.
On August 28 2009 06:49 Tom Phoenix wrote: Although someone will very likely recreate Brood War in SC2, chances are that not a lot of people will play it on a regular basis. The majority will most likely play SC2 melee, while BW "purists" will likely stick to the original Brood War.
However, I must admit, I would be very happy if someone recreated the StarCraft and Brood War campaigns in SC2.
Already planning on recreating the vanilla protoss one
On August 28 2009 06:49 Tom Phoenix wrote: Although someone will very likely recreate Brood War in SC2, chances are that not a lot of people will play it on a regular basis. The majority will most likely play SC2 melee, while BW "purists" will likely stick to the original Brood War.
However, I must admit, I would be very happy if someone recreated the StarCraft and Brood War campaigns in SC2.
Already planning on recreating the vanilla protoss one
YES!!!! Seeing Tassadar, Aldaris and Fenix in 3D would be beyond awesome.
I still don't think that a Brood War in SC2 would be more than skins + unit modifications. It's impossible to "re-create" Brood War in any real sense unless they used the same game engine.
Altho I agree with the majority of ppl saying that it can not be done, I suggest we just wait and see what will be and what won't be possible to do. Im so looking forward just to try out something new..but when nostalgia hits I would play this mod fo sho.
On August 28 2009 06:49 Itachii wrote: Would be really nice to have this, i woudln't mind playing SC1 with 2's gfx engine for some time, at least till everything is perfectly balanced. Yeah it will take a lot of time, but whatever, i love SC
I don't think a recreating of BW in SC2's engine will be nearly as balanced as BW itself. Units move much more intelligently, making funneling many units through a small spot much easier and faster. I think that could be a pretty big deal when talking about Zergling control and such.
Plus other things people have mentioned before me, of course.
I don't know if it would work with the Sc2 engine. There are a lot of things in SC:BW that would be hard to recreate in general, let alone using a different engine. If possible, it should take a ridiculous amount of work. Wouldn't be worth switching IMO.
On August 28 2009 06:49 Itachii wrote: Would be really nice to have this, i woudln't mind playing SC1 with 2's gfx engine for some time, at least till everything is perfectly balanced. Yeah it will take a lot of time, but whatever, i love SC
I don't think a recreating of BW in SC2's engine will be nearly as balanced as BW itself. Units move much more intelligently, making funneling many units through a small spot much easier and faster. I think that could be a pretty big deal when talking about Zergling control and such.
Plus other things people have mentioned before me, of course.
exactly being able to select more units as zerg is a buff for them likewise it makes the T m&m ball even more unstoppable since you can double click on a marine and have 50 selected , easy stim it wont be the same
EPT
