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On February 22 2013 07:11 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:33 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:So much for new units making their mark on the battlefield. Meanwhile Z gets to pretty much open 2 base unmolested for the first 7 min since EVERYONE's doing it thus affecting global racial win rate ratio every time any all-in BO by T becomes popular and abuses the fact that Zerg have NO DEFENSES by 7 min. Since Davie is so concerned with win ratios versus entertainment, T should abuse their win ratio balancing theory and go CC first every time, lose to the other races and then force Blizzard to nerf THEIR 7min pressure/push/all-in And then every SC2 E-Sports event is about casters talking for 15min waiting for 150 food pushes. How about proxy reaper builds? Reapers can start molesting Zerg well before the 7 minute mark. Also, this build order doesn't just win if Zerg has nothing but drones at 7:00, it wins if Zerg doesn't have a shit load of units, multiple spines and multiple queens at 7:00.
The worst feeling in the world is when 10 reapers show up from out of nowhere and start killing your queens.
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Urk, everyone just seems to forget this: SCOUT. If this build is nigh unscoutable and/or undefeatable despite scouting, then it's a balance issue.
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I gave this a go twice in unranked and then really took it to some zergs in ranked. Hilarious build
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On February 22 2013 08:13 plogamer wrote:
Urk, everyone just seems to forget this: SCOUT. If this build is nigh unscoutable and/or undefeatable despite scouting, then it's a balance issue.
You can't scout it. If you send a drone scout then you pretty much lose the game b/c you are so far behind as Zerg, and if you send an ovie in the base then the Terran kills it with a marine and you lose outright from being so behind. This build is unscoutable, it's ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed NOW.
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On February 22 2013 13:28 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:13 plogamer wrote:
Urk, everyone just seems to forget this: SCOUT. If this build is nigh unscoutable and/or undefeatable despite scouting, then it's a balance issue. You can't scout it. If you send a drone scout then you pretty much lose the game b/c you are so far behind as Zerg, and if you send an ovie in the base then the Terran kills it with a marine and you lose outright from being so behind. This build is unscoutable, it's ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed NOW.
What?
You mean manage a decent creep spread,
an early drone scout before 4min,
guess the opening, build either baneling nest/hydra den/roach warren to counter
an overlord scout by 6:30 to spot/confirm opening, build X number of Yunits to defend
while maintaining inject larve and drone production on 2-bases?
I don't know much about Zerg, but I thought that was STANDARD play for diamond level.
Or maybe I've been watching too many Husky casts of Stephano.
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On February 21 2013 23:53 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 23:45 reapsen wrote:
Can maybe early burrow help to deal with this?
i.e. burrow baneling landmines early on for a first "surprise" and later roach burrow micro? That would be an awesome defense. You'd need burrow a bit before the hellions get to your base if you want to go baneling land mines (so Terran doesn't see you burrow), and the all-in can get to your base ~6:40ish, so that means you have to start burrow in the 4:30-5:00 range, which is definitely doable. I'd love to see people start rushing to baneling land mines in ZvT.
Lol a little bit elaborate to stop a simple allin don't you think?
Just have roaches by a certain time if you havnt seen a CC from him yet. Most terrans nowadays will either let you see their CC at their nat or you will have an overlord available to see the CC float down. For the other 5% of the time you will have to guess.
In ZvT vs gas first I go quick roaches after 3 queens anyhow to take my 3rd base. It would just require you to see no CC on low ground at 6:00 (which is pretty late at a high level) then build a few extra roaches to defend the impending allin. Maybe after 1 tumor save energy on queen to transfuse your 1 precautionary spine.
Yes I think hellbat allins are super strong but some of these ideas to defend it are pretty hilarious 
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On February 21 2013 03:40 Umpteen wrote:
For the time-poor amongst us, I present the condensed version of the rest of this thread:
Hellbats imba!
No they're not!
Maybe a slight nerf...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they change this...
Techlab...
Powerful early aggression will increase variety in the game and restore viewer numbers, just look at 4-gate in PvP...
Broken...
Well if you're going to make nothing but drones until 70 supply what do you want to happen?
Zergs can attack at 7:00 too...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they don't change this...
This is what happens when you design something inelegantly...
You don't know jack about 20th century military ordnance.
TL should have a "like" button for posts.
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On February 22 2013 13:28 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:13 plogamer wrote:
Urk, everyone just seems to forget this: SCOUT. If this build is nigh unscoutable and/or undefeatable despite scouting, then it's a balance issue. You can't scout it. If you send a drone scout then you pretty much lose the game b/c you are so far behind as Zerg, and if you send an ovie in the base then the Terran kills it with a marine and you lose outright from being so behind. This build is unscoutable, it's ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed NOW.
One overlord at the natural will see no expansion. One overlord near the main can both see that they went gas and also scout a factory, potentially with a reactor showing that you'll need roach/hydra.
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I think you missed GorGor's sarcasm. Internet discussions...
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Re: just scout no expansion!
This is why I think the "macro" version of this build is probably the most powerful. If you expand onto the natural, they have no reason to expect this allin coming.
Oh well, doesn't matter anymore anyway with the nerf coming. Was fun while it lasted.
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On February 22 2013 06:33 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:So much for new units making their mark on the battlefield. Meanwhile Z gets to pretty much open 2 base unmolested for the first 7 min since EVERYONE's doing it thus affecting global racial win rate ratio every time any all-in BO by T becomes popular and abuses the fact that Zerg have NO DEFENSES by 7 min. Since Davie is so concerned with win ratios versus entertainment, T should abuse their win ratio balancing theory and go CC first every time, lose to the other races and then force Blizzard to nerf THEIR 7min pressure/push/all-in And then every SC2 E-Sports event is about casters talking for 15min waiting for 150 food pushes.
It's funny how many Terran players complain about how stale it is to play macro games all the time, yet never consider that just maybe Zerg players feel the same way, and don't do it out of choice...
Think for a moment, Mr Hanzo: what is it that's making you consider abandoning early aggression and going CC first all the time? Weakness of early aggression, right? So why the hell do you think Zergs only ever want to fast expand, and have done since the first few months of WoL?
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On February 22 2013 18:36 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:33 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:So much for new units making their mark on the battlefield. Meanwhile Z gets to pretty much open 2 base unmolested for the first 7 min since EVERYONE's doing it thus affecting global racial win rate ratio every time any all-in BO by T becomes popular and abuses the fact that Zerg have NO DEFENSES by 7 min. Since Davie is so concerned with win ratios versus entertainment, T should abuse their win ratio balancing theory and go CC first every time, lose to the other races and then force Blizzard to nerf THEIR 7min pressure/push/all-in And then every SC2 E-Sports event is about casters talking for 15min waiting for 150 food pushes. It's funny how many Terran players complain about how stale it is to play macro games all the time, yet never consider that just maybe Zerg players feel the same way, and don't do it out of choice... Think for a moment, Mr Hanzo: what is it that's making you consider abandoning early aggression and going CC first all the time? Weakness of early aggression, right? So why the hell do you think Zergs only ever want to fast expand, and have done since the first few months of WoL?
I would like to introduce you to this kid called Life. Although Leenock isn't a bad example either.
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On February 22 2013 18:57 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:36 Umpteen wrote:On February 22 2013 06:33 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:So much for new units making their mark on the battlefield. Meanwhile Z gets to pretty much open 2 base unmolested for the first 7 min since EVERYONE's doing it thus affecting global racial win rate ratio every time any all-in BO by T becomes popular and abuses the fact that Zerg have NO DEFENSES by 7 min. Since Davie is so concerned with win ratios versus entertainment, T should abuse their win ratio balancing theory and go CC first every time, lose to the other races and then force Blizzard to nerf THEIR 7min pressure/push/all-in And then every SC2 E-Sports event is about casters talking for 15min waiting for 150 food pushes. It's funny how many Terran players complain about how stale it is to play macro games all the time, yet never consider that just maybe Zerg players feel the same way, and don't do it out of choice... Think for a moment, Mr Hanzo: what is it that's making you consider abandoning early aggression and going CC first all the time? Weakness of early aggression, right? So why the hell do you think Zergs only ever want to fast expand, and have done since the first few months of WoL? I would like to introduce you to this kid called Life. Although Leenock isn't a bad example either.
I couldn't have said it better. I remember when Z's used to do 1 base pressure builds, until they realised they could just use superior numbers of drones to a-move surround any oncoming drop and win with minimal losses, casters found a way to define the failed attack as damaging the economy due to "lost mining time".
Given how Zerg have been given essentially a free pass to macro to 3 bases by whining on message boards and losing in pro-matches ZvX, I'm seeing how two can play that game and see how long it takes for David to nerf the game into oblivion each time a race's global Win:Loss ratio drops significantly.
"I lost so much because I had to build a bunker in the mineral line! Fu*kin' A, Protoss is imba, Blizzard needs to nerf Oracles NOW" - frustrated pro-gamer
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On February 22 2013 18:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
I think you missed GorGor's sarcasm. Internet discussions...
Bravo good sir. Although it is hard to detect because that is what a lot of zerg players actually think o.0
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EPT
