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[Edit: Did some testing with variations of this build and added the results. The initial 13 gas + 2nd gas variation was the least efficient in every way, no reason to ever do that. Added the versions that are worth doing to the "Build Variations" section. Horrifying: considered the potential for a "macro" version!]
Hullo. Masters WoL Terran here, rank 1 Diamond HotS but it refuses to promote me for whatever reason. Rude. Anyway, I've been playing around with this TvZ allin to great amusement. I'm sure I'm not the first person to think of it. Thought others might find it entertaining.
BASIC OUTLINE
Basically, you mine just enough gas to get double reactor factories and an armory on one base, then you pull out of gas and cut SCVs on minimum saturation (18), and just pump constant hellbats.
You arrive at their base with an initial wave of 8 hellbats and a few marines around the 7:00 mark.
It's hilarious.
BUILD VARIATIONS
Allin Variation - Gas First, No 2nd Gas
This version has basically zero follow through, but it packs the hardest punch at the earliest time. You arrive with 8 hellbats + 1 rine @ 6:40, or 12 hellbats + 1 rine @ 7:20. It's debatable whether it's better to go with the first 8 sooner or wait for the 12, but either way, in this version you're getting the most the soonest.
10 depot
12 gas
13 rax
16 fact, orbital, rine
17 reactor, depot
19 2nd fact, 2nd reactor
Cut SCVs @ 19 supply (18 total SCVs + 1 rine)
@ 100 gas -> armory + pull out of gas
Macro Variation - 13 Gas, No 2nd Gas, CC
This version is slightly less potent in its impact (you end up with 8 hellbats + 2 rines arriving @ 7:20, a full production round behind the Allin Variation), but you don't have to cut as many SCVs and you end up with an extra CC to aid in transition. With the potential to make double reactor widow mines to hold any counterattack, the follow through that makes the most sense to me would be taking a quick third CC (once the attack has clearly failed and you are no longer trading efficiently - continue pumping hellbats up until that point, of course).
10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
15 rine + orbital
16 depot
18 fact
19 reactor
20 CC
22 2nd fact, 2nd reactor
26 depot (after first set of helions)
@ 100 gas -> armory + pull out of gas + cut SCV production temporarily while pumping hellbats
EXECUTION
On two player maps, no need to scout. Four player maps, just scout with your first two helions.
Denying their scouting is obviously super important. Preferably place your rax/factories at difficult to spot locations - not at the edges of your base where OLs are likely to come (keep your rines at these edges until you move out), not at the front where lings can poke (depot walloff).
Send your first rine to the outer edge of your natural expansion, deny them vision of whether or not you have expanded if possible.
Obviously, if they scout no expansion, they're going to be expecting some shenanigans. But the possibility of this build is not really on their radar yet.
Move out with your rines at about the time you start your first full set of four helions so that they meet up with everything else at the proper time.
If they scout no expansion, they'll know you're teching or something, so you might as well clear watchtowers with your first helions. If they don't get to see whether or not you have expanded, better to keep your helions hidden until you're ready to move out, so they may simply assume an expand.
Key priority is doing economic damage. If you can get a few good crippling hits on their drones (which, incidentally, is not terribly difficult with the amount of hellbats in your possession), their production will no longer be able to keep up with yours.
POSSIBLE SCENARIOS
1) They have no roach warren completed upon your arrival.
Instant GG. There is literally, literally nothing they can do. Laugh maniacally, drop mules, collect free win.
2) They expect shenanigans and make some defensive roaches.
You should be able to overpower them as long as you micro well, you can even plough through multiple spines. Pull back and regroup when necessary.
3) They do the 10 roach pressure build.
This is the only time I have lost with this build. You can hold their attack with the amount of hellbats you have, but this lets them know exactly what's up and they can continue to produce roaches while you're stuck at home defending, and they should be able to hold it off in the end.
REPLAYS
[These replays are of the old 2 gas, super inefficient version of the build. Check above for proper versions. They still illustrate the general principle, however.]
http://drop.sc/305927
Vs [USAR]usNEUX on Howling Peak
This dude makes a lot of roaches. TOO BAD HELIONS BEAT THEM
(The key is getting a crippling hit on the economy - their production won't be able to keep up.)
http://drop.sc/305926
Vs [NEX]Healing on Korhal City
He scouts the factory (this is why you don't put it at front). He even sees my units move out because I don't even bother to clear the watch tower. He has a roach warren. He still loses.
http://drop.sc/305928
Vs SkyDreameROk on Daybreak
This is what happens when there is no roach warren. Dude thinks he can defend with a spine and some queens and I'm all like LOL #YOLO #HELLBATS
CONCLUSION
I'm going to go pass out from sleep deprivation now. Um, have fun.
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That write up is amazing xD I'm a Z player, but I HAVE to go unranked and try this out. Hahaha, sounds so fun xD
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Too bad 90% of the Time you have to play TvT on Ladder.
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This only works because hellbats are the counter to roaches.
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wouldnt put too much effort into hellbat guides lol
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Ya know, since this is an all in, you might as well go all the way with it. With mule income I think you can afford to pull 4 scvs for repair.
Although, this is pretty similar to the marauder-hellion-scv 7:30 all-in in wings. Basically, the first 4 marauders are being traded for the extra factory and double techlabs for a reactor (in terms of gas cost) and the 2nd rax for the second refinery. I wonder how they compare. Going to have to test it later.
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Seems incredibly easy to just beat it if the zerg knows how to micro and spread creep. Just ling surround spread banelings out and just charge in with like 2 queens behind and ez pz but seems the level of players u r facing aren't too great if thats a free win.
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On February 21 2013 03:01 Saumure wrote:
This only works because hellbats are the counter to roaches.
Yet he says roaches are the only counter to this... Hmm.
Microed roaches on creep should never lose to hellbats.
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This is some nasty shit for a zerg player to deal with, Atleast for me.
I am going to try this in unranked right now!
(fuck you btw  )
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For the time-poor amongst us, I present the condensed version of the rest of this thread:
Hellbats imba!
No they're not!
Maybe a slight nerf...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they change this...
Techlab...
Powerful early aggression will increase variety in the game and restore viewer numbers, just look at 4-gate in PvP...
Broken...
Well if you're going to make nothing but drones until 70 supply what do you want to happen?
Zergs can attack at 7:00 too...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they don't change this...
This is what happens when you design something inelegantly...
You don't know jack about 20th century military ordnance.
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Umpteen you forgot to add 'hitler' at the end, all internet roads of discussion always lead to one place.
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I think you can hold this easily with banelings but i'm not sure,i might have to test it.
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Tbh I expect zerg can hold this with most builds, unless it really hits unscouted and with no significant amounts of roaches/spines. But at least for now people dont know the strat so they lose horribly.
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On February 21 2013 03:59 DifuntO wrote:
I think you can hold this easily with banelings but i'm not sure,i might have to test it.
I don't think you can. Any zerg who tries to react to this build with a baneling nest will probably lose. There is no efficient way to trade gas for mineral only units, especially when there is no cost efficient way to clean up the remainder with zerglings either. And the problem is the terran can keep affording 4 hellbats at once, 4 hellbats will decimate any amount of zerglings, and how many banelings does it take to kill 4 hellbats?
I think this may be a huge issue in pro play and may turn into what reapers were in WoL beta or what marineking did in GSL open 2 where he 2 raxed every time and fucked over the zergs meta.
How badly would this effect TvP if hellbats didn't require an armory but an upgrade at tech lab? I'm interested to hear what TvP specialists have to say on this because a tech lab would severely limit the usefulness of this build.
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Thx for posting this. If it's as OP as it seems, spreading the build will make a patch come faster 
Good job !
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On February 21 2013 04:08 emc wrote:
How badly would this effect TvP if hellbats didn't require an armory but an upgrade at tech lab? I'm interested to hear what TvP specialists have to say on this because a tech lab would severely limit the usefulness of this build.
I think it would affect TvP quite a bit. A lot of what makes mines + hellbats viable as support for bio is the fact that you don't actually need any separate techs for them, you can just slap a reactor on that factory (that would be usually used for scouting) and start producing these cheap units. Once you start adding barriers such as tech lab + upgrade requirement, it becomes a lot less viable considering these hellbats will be completely unupgraded anyway. You are better off spending your resources on more bio units, and we are back to WOL TvP.
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Seems like a strong all-in, but I don't see how it should beat a player who makes a bunch of roaches and controls them well. On pretty much any map it should be possible to scout the lack of an expansion with an overlord, and just massing roaches should hold easily assuming you have a bit of creep spread and kite the hellbats with your roaches.
2) They expect shenanigans and make some defensive roaches.
You should be able to overpower them as long as you micro well, you can even plough through multiple spines. Pull back and regroup when necessary.
It feels more like you are dependent on a Zerg with roaches not microing well (roaches are 2.92 speed on creep compared to hellbat 2.25, roaches are 4 range compared to hellbat 2). How are you supposed to kill off a roaching player who kites your hellbats? How are you supposed to "pull back" if the roaches are faster and can get free hits off as you retreat?
I see this getting a lot of free wins against unprepared Zergs, but losing to solid Zerg players (especially those who have seen it once before).
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On February 21 2013 04:28 JDub wrote:Seems like a strong all-in, but I don't see how it should beat a player who makes a bunch of roaches and controls them well. On pretty much any map it should be possible to scout the lack of an expansion with an overlord, and just massing roaches should hold easily assuming you have a bit of creep spread and kite the hellbats with your roaches. Show nested quote +2) They expect shenanigans and make some defensive roaches.
You should be able to overpower them as long as you micro well, you can even plough through multiple spines. Pull back and regroup when necessary. It feels more like you are dependent on a Zerg with roaches not microing well (roaches are 2.92 speed on creep compared to hellbat 2.25, roaches are 4 range compared to hellbat 2). How are you supposed to kill off a roaching player who kites your hellbats? How are you supposed to "pull back" if the roaches are faster and can get free hits off as you retreat? I see this getting a lot of free wins against unprepared Zergs, but losing to solid Zerg players (especially those who have seen it once before).
and it's still guess work at this point because we haven't seen a pro ZvT where the Z scouts it perfectly and reacts appropriately. It could be another WoL beta reaper build where the zerg can see it coming, but is always on the back foot of terran transitions. We just don't know until we see it unfold in pro play. and frankly, this build scares me because as mentioned here:
On February 21 2013 04:26 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 04:08 emc wrote:
How badly would this effect TvP if hellbats didn't require an armory but an upgrade at tech lab? I'm interested to hear what TvP specialists have to say on this because a tech lab would severely limit the usefulness of this build. I think it would affect TvP quite a bit. A lot of what makes mines + hellbats viable as support for bio is the fact that you don't actually need any separate techs for them, you can just slap a reactor on that factory (that would be usually used for scouting) and start producing these cheap units. Once you start adding barriers such as tech lab + upgrade requirement, it becomes a lot less viable considering these hellbats will be completely unupgraded anyway. You are better off spending your resources on more bio units, and we are back to WOL TvP.
it seems like hellbats need to remain as is to keep mech viable in TvP.
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This is awesome! I theorycraft that 12 or so banelings w/ a ling follow-up will shut it down, and that the Zerg's 2 base economy will overpower eventually.
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On February 21 2013 04:33 emc wrote:
and it's still guess work at this point because we haven't seen a pro ZvT where the Z scouts it perfectly and reacts appropriately. It could be another WoL beta reaper build where the zerg can see it coming, but is always on the back foot of terran transitions. We just don't know until we see it unfold in pro play. and frankly, this build scares me because as mentioned here:
It won't be comparable to WOL reaper builds, as those were just fundamentally broken with no zerg early unit being able to match the range + mobility of the reaper. Worst case scenario is that this will force zergs to prebuild a roach warren + a couple of roaches if they do not scout a terran expanding early on.
It might be OP in the sense that terrans will always get an econ lead unless the zerg gambles in the early game. Will have to see what openers zerg players can come up with.
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I dunno wouldnt a zerg with actual skill just make 5 spines and win?
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On February 21 2013 05:00 Aquila- wrote:
I dunno wouldnt a zerg with actual skill just make 5 spines and win?
Make 5 spines, Terran is actually making a medivac with their hellbats, elevators them into your main, and you lose.
I think roaches, not spines, are the correct answer to a hellbat all-in.
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Make roaches instead of drones only?
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On February 21 2013 05:10 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Make roaches instead of drones only?
I think banelings would be the way to go. Bonus damage, and the splash would help kill repairing SCVs/other hellbats.
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Can you heal hellbats with medivacs and repair them with SCVs at the same time to make that a double heal?
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Someone tried this on me last night. I stopped it unscouted with my standard opening (burrow roach push).
Here is a rough guide of how I stopped it:
9 Overlord
15 hatch
15 pool
17 gas
17 overlord
(2 queens when hatch/pool pop)
19-21 warren (whenever you got 150 mins and not too late...)
23-25 gas w/ 2 drones
burrow w/ 100 gas
5-8 roaches + queens + burrow + 2 spines
The spines were clutch and necessary. I dropped them when I scouted the reactor hellion opening to protect what I hoped was mass droning... when I saw them push out I just queued roaches instead of drones.
Note: Burrow can really help you keep your queens/roaches alive, but you may want to cancel it if you are late on gas to pump more roaches.
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Banelings are hard counter to this imo, unless terran somehow makes a perfect split.
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Something I have done TvZ was a 2 fact all in similar to your build set up except I have gone for tanks, marines, hellbats. So I got my second gas a tad earlier and hit a bit later. Worked out pretty well if you get a tech on the first factory to increase the tank count, even if they build spines and roaches.
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On February 21 2013 05:28 ALPINA wrote:
Banelings are hard counter to this imo, unless terran somehow makes a perfect split.
it takes 4 banelings to kill a non upgraded hellbat and 5 banelings to kill a hellbat with armor upgrade, can banelings really counter hellbats (seriously asking)
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On February 21 2013 05:39 cmor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 05:28 ALPINA wrote:
Banelings are hard counter to this imo, unless terran somehow makes a perfect split. it takes 4 banelings to kill a non upgraded hellbat and 5 banelings to kill a hellbat with armor upgrade, can banelings really counter hellbats (seriously asking)
Of course, as long as their are clumped and on creep. Problem is that without scouting zerg usually does not get such an early baneling nest for no reason.
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On February 21 2013 05:54 ALPINA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 05:39 cmor wrote:On February 21 2013 05:28 ALPINA wrote:
Banelings are hard counter to this imo, unless terran somehow makes a perfect split. it takes 4 banelings to kill a non upgraded hellbat and 5 banelings to kill a hellbat with armor upgrade, can banelings really counter hellbats (seriously asking) Of course, as long as their are clumped and on creep. Problem is that without scouting zerg usually does not get such an early baneling nest for no reason.
Just a little bit of splitting makes banelings pretty cost inefficient against hellbats in my opinion. If you are trading 4 banelings for 2-3 hellbats, that's 200/100 for 200-300 minerals from the Terran. And if you are spending your gas on banelings, that means you are probably going to rely on lings to clean up the rest, but even with a full surround lings get absolutely trashed by hellbats.
I still think roaches are a superior response, since they can kite hellbats, rather than blow themselves up trying to destroy them.
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On February 21 2013 03:40 Umpteen wrote:
For the time-poor amongst us, I present the condensed version of the rest of this thread:
Hellbats imba!
No they're not!
Maybe a slight nerf...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they change this...
Techlab...
Powerful early aggression will increase variety in the game and restore viewer numbers, just look at 4-gate in PvP...
Broken...
Well if you're going to make nothing but drones until 70 supply what do you want to happen?
Zergs can attack at 7:00 too...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they don't change this...
This is what happens when you design something inelegantly...
You don't know jack about 20th century military ordnance.
Hahaha, I like you <3
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Sick feedback doods.
I did some testing vs comp and discovered the most bullshitty ways to execute this bullshit, added my results to the OP.
Have to agree that I definitely do not think that banes are the answer to this. Super cost inefficient, and making that many banes blindly that early in the game will put you SO far behind if the T happens to be doing anything other than this one obscure build. Just makes no sense.
One thing I haven't tested vs live opponents yet is the "macro" version that I have added to OP. Will do tomorrow. I think it has a lot of potential...
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What is the actual range on the hellbat? Liquipedia says 2, but I kept hearing Khaldor say 3 in the recent GSTL HotS tourney.
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I've been getting overlord speed with my first 100 gas every game vs Terran just to see if they are going some kind of early hellbats. I'm so scared of hellbats... they are such an OP unit vs Zerg.
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On February 21 2013 06:18 TheSambassador wrote:
What is the actual range on the hellbat? Liquipedia says 2, but I kept hearing Khaldor say 3 in the recent GSTL HotS tourney.
its 2
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On February 21 2013 06:15 Lakona wrote:
Sick feedback doods.
I did some testing vs comp and discovered the most bullshitty ways to execute this bullshit, added my results to the OP.
Have to agree that I definitely do not think that banes are the answer to this. Super cost inefficient, and making that many banes blindly that early in the game will put you SO far behind if the T happens to be doing anything other than this one obscure build. Just makes no sense.
One thing I haven't tested vs live opponents yet is the "macro" version that I have added to OP. Will do tomorrow. I think it has a lot of potential...
You wouldn't be getting banelings blind, if by 6 min a player doesn't see/scout an expo, he should be preparing for an all-in. It is cost-inefficient, but Zerg is on 2 base and is able to be cost-inefficient.
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On February 21 2013 06:38 Harbinger631 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 06:15 Lakona wrote:
Sick feedback doods.
I did some testing vs comp and discovered the most bullshitty ways to execute this bullshit, added my results to the OP.
Have to agree that I definitely do not think that banes are the answer to this. Super cost inefficient, and making that many banes blindly that early in the game will put you SO far behind if the T happens to be doing anything other than this one obscure build. Just makes no sense.
One thing I haven't tested vs live opponents yet is the "macro" version that I have added to OP. Will do tomorrow. I think it has a lot of potential... You wouldn't be getting banelings blind, if by 6 min a player doesn't see/scout an expo, he should be preparing for an all-in. It is cost-inefficient, but Zerg is on 2 base and is able to be cost-inefficient.
But what do banelings do for you that roaches do not? Remember the push could come in hellion form as well, in which case your banes are going to have a whole lot of trouble even connecting with the hellions.
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Looks like a lot of fun. :D
Gonna try it out as soon as i get back home.
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On February 21 2013 03:07 Tsubbi wrote:
wouldnt put too much effort into hellbat guides lol
This absolutely. A unit that deals 30 splash to light in a cone with speed 2 which is still more than decent against everything else including static defenses is.. you know. The evil word.
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I lost with it wtf? he had a wallof and roaches... wtf?
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The only real benefit banelings have to roaches I can think is that banelings don't eat up supply like roaches do, allowing a stronger economy before you decide to prepare for an all-in. And the fact you don't have to use roaches.
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On February 21 2013 07:06 Dirkinity wrote:
I lost with it wtf? he had a wallof and roaches... wtf?
How many roaches did he have? Why didn't you just kill the roaches and move in? Or skill the spine?
Post a replay.
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its better to get 2 refineries as you can get reactor on both factories then (reactor thru barracks). Put 2 scvs in each gas once you have 2 gas (build second at like 15 sply). You can get more hellbats that way.
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I'm hoping this becomes more popular, as my opener is really strong against it :p
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On February 21 2013 07:51 Snusmumriken wrote:
its better to get 2 refineries as you can get reactor on both factories then (reactor thru barracks). Put 2 scvs in each gas once you have 2 gas (build second at like 15 sply). You can get more hellbats that way.
You still get two reactors off the gas first build with no 2nd gas (clarified this in the OP, didn't notice I'd left it out). Getting a 2nd gas after going gas first cuts into helion production and you ultimately end up with less of them for the fastest possible timing.
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As a Zerg player I'm really happy when stuff like this surfaces. Shine a light on the imba
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On February 21 2013 08:22 koOma wrote:As a Zerg player I'm really happy when stuff like this surfaces. Shine a light on the imba
I think this is more a case of Zerg players not knowing how to respond to this attack rather than any imbalance. Competent Zerg players should be able to hold it with more experience against it.
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On February 21 2013 04:12 Ambre wrote:Thx for posting this. If it's as OP as it seems, spreading the build will make a patch come faster Good job !
Some one should post this on the battle.net forum and add link to this thread.
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And even if Hellbats are imba, you know what is imba too? The fact that Zerg can mass Infestor every single game in WoL and have a 85% winrate just by doing that and then a moving Broodlords. They still have not fixed that in WoL after months and months of Zerg domination. And you guys cry because of a little Hellbat lol...
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On February 21 2013 03:40 Umpteen wrote:
For the time-poor amongst us, I present the condensed version of the rest of this thread:
Hellbats imba!
No they're not!
Maybe a slight nerf...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they change this...
Techlab...
Powerful early aggression will increase variety in the game and restore viewer numbers, just look at 4-gate in PvP...
Broken...
Well if you're going to make nothing but drones until 70 supply what do you want to happen?
Zergs can attack at 7:00 too...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they don't change this...
This is what happens when you design something inelegantly...
lol man. R U PSYCHIC!??
But seriously, this:
You don't know jack about 20th century military ordnance.
A clear thread winner.
Game. Set. Match
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On February 21 2013 10:00 Von wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 03:40 Umpteen wrote:
For the time-poor amongst us, I present the condensed version of the rest of this thread:
Hellbats imba!
No they're not!
Maybe a slight nerf...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they change this...
Techlab...
Powerful early aggression will increase variety in the game and restore viewer numbers, just look at 4-gate in PvP...
Broken...
Well if you're going to make nothing but drones until 70 supply what do you want to happen?
Zergs can attack at 7:00 too...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they don't change this...
This is what happens when you design something inelegantly...
lol man. R U PSYCHIC!?? But seriously, this: A clear thread winner. Game. Set. Match
I completely agree w/ this sentiment 
On the OP: Quick, Efficient, HIGHLY abusive since it looks like it SHOULD hit @ 7mins on the spot. I like it. Will help me w/ dat portrait farming... oh wait. It's xp now instead of wins. FUUUUUU
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oh god. fuck. well good thing I've been doing roach pressure builds. this sounds horrible to deal with. watching the vod actually made me laugh pretty hard. nice thread summary by Umpteen as well.
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What time does 2 base muta hit? Is that an alternative?
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This is what happens when you have a unit which is cheaper, does more DPS, and has about the same HP as what should be its counter unit.
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I keep reading people saying "go banelings, go banelings"
No. As a terran I can tell you straight up this will not work. All I'd have to do is put the hellbats (all or some) back into hellion mode and I'll kite banelings all day.
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It's called overlord speed buff. Can't get drone into main to scout? Send in an OV. It might die, but its worth just knowing the gas timing/opener. Actually, I have zergs risk saccing a drone to get on my ramp and see the factory next to my rax (since i want them close to eachother for reactor swap). 2 marines don't usually take out a drone fast enough to deny this scout.
Also, roach warden is pretty standard anyway when you scout early factory tech, unless zerg is playing super greedy and trying to hold it off with just lings and queens (which often works in WoL).
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On February 21 2013 12:12 Rowrin wrote:
I keep reading people saying "go banelings, go banelings"
No. As a terran I can tell you straight up this will not work. All I'd have to do is put the hellbats (all or some) back into hellion mode and I'll kite banelings all day.
Good luck doing economic damage while tanking lings/queens in hellion mode. Remember, this is a stupid all-in that needs to do damage to economy or else zerg will race ahead in tech.
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This is even more hilarious than 5 rax reaper lol
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On February 21 2013 12:12 Rowrin wrote:
I keep reading people saying "go banelings, go banelings"
No. As a terran I can tell you straight up this will not work. All I'd have to do is put the hellbats (all or some) back into hellion mode and I'll kite banelings all day.
Lol, the second you decide to spend 10 hours morphing from hellbats to hellions, you'll be blown to pieces by the banelings, or given the zerg enough time to prepare more defense off a superior economy.
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This is an excelent build now, however it is true what people are saying, once zergs learn how to kite with roaches (especially on creep) then hellbat builds like this will fade into obscurity in TvZ, I figure any builds such as will only continue to work while zergs are still not able to micro their units while trying to build their economy up in the early game. Eventually zergs will get better at playing the game and will be able to hold this with relatively simple micro and be light years ahead in economy.
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On February 21 2013 07:08 Harbinger631 wrote:
The only real benefit banelings have to roaches I can think is that banelings don't eat up supply like roaches do, allowing a stronger economy before you decide to prepare for an all-in. And the fact you don't have to use roaches.
If that's the only benefit you see out of banelings then you don't know much about them.
Main benefit is that they blow up stuff in 1 sec (so queens, spine and lings can clean rest) compared to non existant dps of roaches who will be taking huge damage the whole time.
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I faced the allin yesterday on ladder for the first time and tried to hold it using only lings + spines + queens. It pretty much destroyed me. My defense was probably pretty bad since I saw it for the first time, but I think you can't survive without roaches or at least a wall + a lot of spines (like 4+).
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On February 21 2013 11:29 GPThunder wrote:
What time does 2 base muta hit? Is that an alternative?
Fastest possible is probably 8-9 min in a passive game till that point.
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Next Patch:
Roach's +6 Damage To Biological
Marines and Marauders Tag changed to Psionic
Zealots Biological Tag changed to Psionic
Archon bonus damage changed to vs Psionic.
Ghost's Snipe now targets Non-massive psionic units and mechanical.
Broodlords and Ultralisk given mechanical tag.
All existing Terran mechanical units have their mechanical tags removed.
We hope this helps Zerg deal with early Hellbat all ins from Terran.
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Can maybe early burrow help to deal with this?
i.e. burrow baneling landmines early on for a first "surprise" and later roach burrow micro?
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On February 21 2013 23:45 reapsen wrote:
Can maybe early burrow help to deal with this?
i.e. burrow baneling landmines early on for a first "surprise" and later roach burrow micro?
That would be an awesome defense.
You'd need burrow a bit before the hellions get to your base if you want to go baneling land mines (so Terran doesn't see you burrow), and the all-in can get to your base ~6:40ish, so that means you have to start burrow in the 4:30-5:00 range, which is definitely doable. I'd love to see people start rushing to baneling land mines in ZvT.
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I havent lost with this once. I use reactor on both factories via 2 gas (3 scvs in first, then build 2nd at 15 food and then put 2 in each).
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On February 21 2013 23:23 HappyMen wrote:
Next Patch:
Roach's +6 Damage To Biological
Marines and Marauders Tag changed to Psionic
Zealots Biological Tag changed to Psionic
Archon bonus damage changed to vs Psionic.
Ghost's Snipe now targets Non-massive psionic units and mechanical.
Broodlords and Ultralisk given mechanical tag.
All existing Terran mechanical units have their mechanical tags removed.
We hope this helps Zerg deal with early Hellbat all ins from Terran.
This is the best post in the thread I see what you did here man
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On February 21 2013 23:12 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 11:29 GPThunder wrote:
What time does 2 base muta hit? Is that an alternative? Fastest possible is probably 8-9 min in a passive game till that point.
It's important to note that rushing for 8-9 min mutas leaves you with very little defense. This allin kills it badly.
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On February 22 2013 01:08 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 23:12 Novacute wrote:On February 21 2013 11:29 GPThunder wrote:
What time does 2 base muta hit? Is that an alternative? Fastest possible is probably 8-9 min in a passive game till that point. It's important to note that rushing for 8-9 min mutas leaves you with very little defense. This allin kills it badly.
And that's why the answer is ONE BASE MUTA!!
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This strategy is so good that there really isn't any point in a Terran doing anything else vs Z... not if you want wins anyways.
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Not certain this is even the best build, you can Reactor swap the first Factory and then just build 2 more Factories in order to have a transition into Siege Tanks, Thors or Mass Widow Mines fairly easily. I also think the whole opening is significantly better off of CC 1st with an SCV pull if you want to all in and/or not all in and play standard, If you continue to produce SCVs and mine gas then you can also transition into Widow Mines behind the Hellbats in the event the push fails or tech into a Starport.
Im a huge fan of the double reactor/factory opening regardless tho' in TvZ, Hellbats and Widow Mines are just broken as shit in TvZ.
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On February 22 2013 00:56 djtopa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 23:23 HappyMen wrote:
Next Patch:
Roach's +6 Damage To Biological
Marines and Marauders Tag changed to Psionic
Zealots Biological Tag changed to Psionic
Archon bonus damage changed to vs Psionic.
Ghost's Snipe now targets Non-massive psionic units and mechanical.
Broodlords and Ultralisk given mechanical tag.
All existing Terran mechanical units have their mechanical tags removed.
We hope this helps Zerg deal with early Hellbat all ins from Terran. This is the best post in the thread I see what you did here man
I wouldn't be surprised if such a patch did come out. Blizzard's gone bonkers anyway.
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hydra counters it with a few spines (or roach as alternative). Hydra pretty much counter most T and P all-in.
but if you build them when they're not all-in and they got a tank or colossus out, you'll have a bad time
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So much for new units making their mark on the battlefield.
Meanwhile Z gets to pretty much open 2 base unmolested for the first 7 min since EVERYONE's doing it thus affecting global racial win rate ratio every time any all-in BO by T becomes popular and abuses the fact that Zerg have NO DEFENSES by 7 min.
Since Davie is so concerned with win ratios versus entertainment, T should abuse their win ratio balancing theory and go CC first every time, lose to the other races and then force Blizzard to nerf THEIR 7min pressure/push/all-in
And then every SC2 E-Sports event is about casters talking for 15min waiting for 150 food pushes.
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On February 22 2013 06:33 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:So much for new units making their mark on the battlefield. Meanwhile Z gets to pretty much open 2 base unmolested for the first 7 min since EVERYONE's doing it thus affecting global racial win rate ratio every time any all-in BO by T becomes popular and abuses the fact that Zerg have NO DEFENSES by 7 min. Since Davie is so concerned with win ratios versus entertainment, T should abuse their win ratio balancing theory and go CC first every time, lose to the other races and then force Blizzard to nerf THEIR 7min pressure/push/all-in And then every SC2 E-Sports event is about casters talking for 15min waiting for 150 food pushes.
How about proxy reaper builds? Reapers can start molesting Zerg well before the 7 minute mark.
Also, this build order doesn't just win if Zerg has nothing but drones at 7:00, it wins if Zerg doesn't have a shit load of units, multiple spines and multiple queens at 7:00.
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On February 22 2013 07:11 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:33 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:So much for new units making their mark on the battlefield. Meanwhile Z gets to pretty much open 2 base unmolested for the first 7 min since EVERYONE's doing it thus affecting global racial win rate ratio every time any all-in BO by T becomes popular and abuses the fact that Zerg have NO DEFENSES by 7 min. Since Davie is so concerned with win ratios versus entertainment, T should abuse their win ratio balancing theory and go CC first every time, lose to the other races and then force Blizzard to nerf THEIR 7min pressure/push/all-in And then every SC2 E-Sports event is about casters talking for 15min waiting for 150 food pushes. How about proxy reaper builds? Reapers can start molesting Zerg well before the 7 minute mark. Also, this build order doesn't just win if Zerg has nothing but drones at 7:00, it wins if Zerg doesn't have a shit load of units, multiple spines and multiple queens at 7:00.
The worst feeling in the world is when 10 reapers show up from out of nowhere and start killing your queens.
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Urk, everyone just seems to forget this: SCOUT. If this build is nigh unscoutable and/or undefeatable despite scouting, then it's a balance issue.
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I gave this a go twice in unranked and then really took it to some zergs in ranked. Hilarious build
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On February 22 2013 08:13 plogamer wrote:
Urk, everyone just seems to forget this: SCOUT. If this build is nigh unscoutable and/or undefeatable despite scouting, then it's a balance issue.
You can't scout it. If you send a drone scout then you pretty much lose the game b/c you are so far behind as Zerg, and if you send an ovie in the base then the Terran kills it with a marine and you lose outright from being so behind. This build is unscoutable, it's ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed NOW.
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On February 22 2013 13:28 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:13 plogamer wrote:
Urk, everyone just seems to forget this: SCOUT. If this build is nigh unscoutable and/or undefeatable despite scouting, then it's a balance issue. You can't scout it. If you send a drone scout then you pretty much lose the game b/c you are so far behind as Zerg, and if you send an ovie in the base then the Terran kills it with a marine and you lose outright from being so behind. This build is unscoutable, it's ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed NOW.
What?
You mean manage a decent creep spread,
an early drone scout before 4min,
guess the opening, build either baneling nest/hydra den/roach warren to counter
an overlord scout by 6:30 to spot/confirm opening, build X number of Yunits to defend
while maintaining inject larve and drone production on 2-bases?
I don't know much about Zerg, but I thought that was STANDARD play for diamond level.
Or maybe I've been watching too many Husky casts of Stephano.
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On February 21 2013 23:53 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 23:45 reapsen wrote:
Can maybe early burrow help to deal with this?
i.e. burrow baneling landmines early on for a first "surprise" and later roach burrow micro? That would be an awesome defense. You'd need burrow a bit before the hellions get to your base if you want to go baneling land mines (so Terran doesn't see you burrow), and the all-in can get to your base ~6:40ish, so that means you have to start burrow in the 4:30-5:00 range, which is definitely doable. I'd love to see people start rushing to baneling land mines in ZvT.
Lol a little bit elaborate to stop a simple allin don't you think?
Just have roaches by a certain time if you havnt seen a CC from him yet. Most terrans nowadays will either let you see their CC at their nat or you will have an overlord available to see the CC float down. For the other 5% of the time you will have to guess.
In ZvT vs gas first I go quick roaches after 3 queens anyhow to take my 3rd base. It would just require you to see no CC on low ground at 6:00 (which is pretty late at a high level) then build a few extra roaches to defend the impending allin. Maybe after 1 tumor save energy on queen to transfuse your 1 precautionary spine.
Yes I think hellbat allins are super strong but some of these ideas to defend it are pretty hilarious
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On February 21 2013 03:40 Umpteen wrote:
For the time-poor amongst us, I present the condensed version of the rest of this thread:
Hellbats imba!
No they're not!
Maybe a slight nerf...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they change this...
Techlab...
Powerful early aggression will increase variety in the game and restore viewer numbers, just look at 4-gate in PvP...
Broken...
Well if you're going to make nothing but drones until 70 supply what do you want to happen?
Zergs can attack at 7:00 too...
Blizzard are fucking morons if they don't change this...
This is what happens when you design something inelegantly...
You don't know jack about 20th century military ordnance.
TL should have a "like" button for posts.
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On February 22 2013 13:28 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 08:13 plogamer wrote:
Urk, everyone just seems to forget this: SCOUT. If this build is nigh unscoutable and/or undefeatable despite scouting, then it's a balance issue. You can't scout it. If you send a drone scout then you pretty much lose the game b/c you are so far behind as Zerg, and if you send an ovie in the base then the Terran kills it with a marine and you lose outright from being so behind. This build is unscoutable, it's ridiculous. Terran needs to be nerfed NOW.
One overlord at the natural will see no expansion. One overlord near the main can both see that they went gas and also scout a factory, potentially with a reactor showing that you'll need roach/hydra.
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I think you missed GorGor's sarcasm. Internet discussions...
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Re: just scout no expansion!
This is why I think the "macro" version of this build is probably the most powerful. If you expand onto the natural, they have no reason to expect this allin coming.
Oh well, doesn't matter anymore anyway with the nerf coming. Was fun while it lasted.
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On February 22 2013 06:33 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:So much for new units making their mark on the battlefield. Meanwhile Z gets to pretty much open 2 base unmolested for the first 7 min since EVERYONE's doing it thus affecting global racial win rate ratio every time any all-in BO by T becomes popular and abuses the fact that Zerg have NO DEFENSES by 7 min. Since Davie is so concerned with win ratios versus entertainment, T should abuse their win ratio balancing theory and go CC first every time, lose to the other races and then force Blizzard to nerf THEIR 7min pressure/push/all-in And then every SC2 E-Sports event is about casters talking for 15min waiting for 150 food pushes.
It's funny how many Terran players complain about how stale it is to play macro games all the time, yet never consider that just maybe Zerg players feel the same way, and don't do it out of choice...
Think for a moment, Mr Hanzo: what is it that's making you consider abandoning early aggression and going CC first all the time? Weakness of early aggression, right? So why the hell do you think Zergs only ever want to fast expand, and have done since the first few months of WoL?
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On February 22 2013 18:36 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 06:33 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:So much for new units making their mark on the battlefield. Meanwhile Z gets to pretty much open 2 base unmolested for the first 7 min since EVERYONE's doing it thus affecting global racial win rate ratio every time any all-in BO by T becomes popular and abuses the fact that Zerg have NO DEFENSES by 7 min. Since Davie is so concerned with win ratios versus entertainment, T should abuse their win ratio balancing theory and go CC first every time, lose to the other races and then force Blizzard to nerf THEIR 7min pressure/push/all-in And then every SC2 E-Sports event is about casters talking for 15min waiting for 150 food pushes. It's funny how many Terran players complain about how stale it is to play macro games all the time, yet never consider that just maybe Zerg players feel the same way, and don't do it out of choice... Think for a moment, Mr Hanzo: what is it that's making you consider abandoning early aggression and going CC first all the time? Weakness of early aggression, right? So why the hell do you think Zergs only ever want to fast expand, and have done since the first few months of WoL?
I would like to introduce you to this kid called Life. Although Leenock isn't a bad example either.
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On February 22 2013 18:57 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 18:36 Umpteen wrote:On February 22 2013 06:33 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:So much for new units making their mark on the battlefield. Meanwhile Z gets to pretty much open 2 base unmolested for the first 7 min since EVERYONE's doing it thus affecting global racial win rate ratio every time any all-in BO by T becomes popular and abuses the fact that Zerg have NO DEFENSES by 7 min. Since Davie is so concerned with win ratios versus entertainment, T should abuse their win ratio balancing theory and go CC first every time, lose to the other races and then force Blizzard to nerf THEIR 7min pressure/push/all-in And then every SC2 E-Sports event is about casters talking for 15min waiting for 150 food pushes. It's funny how many Terran players complain about how stale it is to play macro games all the time, yet never consider that just maybe Zerg players feel the same way, and don't do it out of choice... Think for a moment, Mr Hanzo: what is it that's making you consider abandoning early aggression and going CC first all the time? Weakness of early aggression, right? So why the hell do you think Zergs only ever want to fast expand, and have done since the first few months of WoL? I would like to introduce you to this kid called Life. Although Leenock isn't a bad example either.
I couldn't have said it better. I remember when Z's used to do 1 base pressure builds, until they realised they could just use superior numbers of drones to a-move surround any oncoming drop and win with minimal losses, casters found a way to define the failed attack as damaging the economy due to "lost mining time".
Given how Zerg have been given essentially a free pass to macro to 3 bases by whining on message boards and losing in pro-matches ZvX, I'm seeing how two can play that game and see how long it takes for David to nerf the game into oblivion each time a race's global Win:Loss ratio drops significantly.
"I lost so much because I had to build a bunker in the mineral line! Fu*kin' A, Protoss is imba, Blizzard needs to nerf Oracles NOW" - frustrated pro-gamer
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On February 22 2013 18:11 Ghanburighan wrote:
I think you missed GorGor's sarcasm. Internet discussions...
Bravo good sir. Although it is hard to detect because that is what a lot of zerg players actually think o.0
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EPT
