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On February 12 2013 11:30 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +Also want to add if you're doing a fast expand build... it's okay to lose some workers. You really shouldn't lose all of them. Think of the hellbats as a reaver drop. A 'reaver' drop that only costs 400 minerals. It's a mineral dump that requires positioning, planning, reflexes, micromanagement and the right build to defend against. On the attacking player's side it requires absolutely nothing. Every terran player should keep doing Hellbat drops throughout every macro game to enemy 2nd, 3rd and 4th mineral lines while the real combat is fought elsewhere. This will guarantee a victory. The Hellbat drops do much more damage than any bio drop used to, with much less room for error. The only reason this is being defended against on occasion is because not only are many Terran players still new to the builds themselves or just outright bad. If the patch goes live HotS in its current form the only thing we'll see is the first ladder season ruined and possibly the first Code A and Code S seasons dominated by professional terrans abusing ultra fast reaper harasses, Widow Mine rushes and Hellbats in all their uses. This will ultimately result in most of everything Terran has being nerfed, but atleast they'll have one hurrah during season 1.
medivacs cost only minerals now?
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I would actually argue that the later in the game the less effective the hellbat drop actually is, mainly because the issues people have are lack of awareness (minimap/scout/alert), underpreparedness(scouting/effective composition), and unit prioritization (medivac 1st, then hellbats). I wont argue that its strong, it clearly is, otherwise no one would do it. However, I think it has some very clear weaknesses that have been described thoroughly and will eventually list them in the OP:
Protoss: Planetary Nexus, Stalkers in position (or with blink), kiting (stalker, immortal, etc)
Terran: Missile turret, unit kiting (almost every, if not every, Terran unit can kite a hellbat), widow mine placement (2 recommended.)
Zerg: one spore per min line, extra queens (can anyone quantify this?), roaches (NOT clumped, spread the damage over the available surface area, kite)
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medivacs cost only minerals now?
You don't lose the Medivac unless you're really, really bad, and you're building Medivacs no matter if you're dropping or not so it's essentially free to do the job unless it's fighting elsewhere already. The 400 minerals total Hellbats are the 'sacrificial lambs' that always kill more than their money's worth.
Even if Hellbats were never nerfed in any way, just sit to think about that price for a minute. How can the unit cost 100 minerals each for what it can do? Is it as good as 1 zealot or 2 Marines or 1 Hellion or 4 Zerglings? No, it's twice as good as any of those, or better. It groups up to a 400 mineral dump drop that has a potential to take out an entire mineral line in a couple seconds.
Insult to injury, they still have a chance to escape with the Medivac too if the attacking player so wishes so it's not like we're talking about Banelings here that trade gas for kills. For comparison, a single slow-like-a-turtle Void Ray costs 250 minerals and 150 gas and gets one shot by a Widow Mine and outgunned by a single Viking with 1 scv repairing, 2 stalkers, 1 Nexus Cannon, or a couple Marines on stim, before it can kill anything at all. An Oracle, the 'imba' Protoss mineral line sweeper, costs 150 minerals 150 gas which is again a higher price to come by than 400 minerals. Oracle dies to a single WM Shot, gets hard countered by a single turret, or a bunker in the mineral line with 2 Marines. It has no role in the game at all except in proxy stargate cheeses or when using as a backup detector against Terran cheeses. It's never built after early game at all.
Hellbats. 100 minerals each. Healable. Transportable. Transformable. Multi-purpose. ~3x stronger than any unit in the game for its price. Trades exceptionally well. Brings build order wins occasionally. Works great and is in fact required in macro games both in the main army and as a droppers. Hard-counters many enemy units or even builds. Doesn't get hard countered by anything because it always has a role in the game that no other unit in the game can perform better.
Great design. Hilarious they thought the Warhound was a failed concept but think that this abomination is allright.
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Make Hellbats unable to load into Medivacs without transforming into Hellions.
This makes Hellbat drops still scary and viable, but will only damage players who don't pay attention.
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Ive written this before, but here are the list of problems for hellbats at their current status.
-Far too effective early game due to the flat 18 AOE damage/large HP.
-Hellbat drops are too hard to deal with due to the above
-Only armory is required to gain access to hellbats.
-Armory is preferred over BF upgrade (or the fact that theres a lack of incentive to get BF early with hellions nowadays)
-Medivacs speed boost further complicates the problem by eliminating the immobility of the hellbat somehwat.
On a side note..
-Hellbat drops are quite effective like MMM drops compared to hellion drops as they can snipe buildings too.
So for me, i tend to think that by giving the BF upgrade +5 to light in hellion mode and +5 to base damage in hellbat mode while nerfing its base damage down to 13 + (6 to light?) i.e. not 2 shot-ing workers would be the ideal choice. It gives a chance for players to flee their workers as hellbat drops are like the old BF drops which 2 shot workers. Also zealots and lings dont completely die to hellbats either due to the nerf in the bonus light damage..
Essentially this adds alot of incentive to get the BF upgrade (makes hellbats good vs non light foes instead of being good straight off the bat), effectively lowers the hellbat drops effectiveness like the old BF hellion drops, lowers its effectiveness vs light units but maintains their relationship with non light units .. while maintaing that option of hellbat drops still available and still effective somewhat.
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Perhaps make it so that medivacs can't unload units while they're under the effects of their speed boost? Hell, it would even be easy to explain lorewise 'too dangerous unloading units at this speed' or something. Means if they want to boost and drop, they have to time it well. Or just use the boost to get away more quickly/use it while travelling.
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Blizzard stated the reason for the medivac speed boost is for them to be effective in the late games...if this is the case, it makes more sense for the speedboost to be an upgrade in late game timings. Medivac with speedboost in early games is way too effective.
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I feel that a lot of hellbat's problems will be eliminated by shifting the light bonus (let's say 10 or so), to the blue flame upgrade so it actually requires more than 2 hellbats worth of focus fire to kill workers, and also creates incentive to obtain BFH outside hellion harass.
Also from what i've seen from pro replays and vods, a lot of players are usually unprepared or aren't utilising micro at all to take advantage of hellbats 2 range, and instead, opt to get slaughtered in a head on fight. In a 1 on 1 fight, zealots murded roaches without micro, which is a similar comparison. I guess DK is right in waiting.
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The obvious, most simple solution is to remove the +light damage and only add it again after blue flame was researched.
There is no real downside to this, it would delay the drop or at least make it viable to defend with marine/zergling/zealot.
The other very obvious Solution, which has been proposed countless times, is a slight balancing of the medivac boost by adding an energy cost.
Again - why not? the enery cost may be adjusted until it reaches a good amount. I'd guess that something between 10 -25 energy would make sense. Even just 10 energy would make a huge difference.
I really don't understand how blizzard just randomly adds stuff without giving it a drawback. Medivac drop were already devastating before, they just took more skill but they require less skill than defending at 3 places at once.
Now the boost needs to be a tactical option, not a free ability with no research required and no drawback.
Also I personally would love to see a buff to the transformation speed of hellbats and vikings - that would make for much more interesting micro options.
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The only difficult part is killing them with a small amount of units. The dmg they do is similar to any other drop. Though 3 widow mines will kill all 4, and a lot of other units can kite. Run your workers away and its not tooooo bad. Its like any other harass
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I like the ideas of the thread maker. I also like the idea that hellbats should cost some gas.
What I don't understand is why is hellion and hellbat basically the same unit? I mean... the hellbat is like 4 times stronger than the hellion. It doesn't fit to the concept. If hellion banshee opening was so good at WoL, how good can hellbat opening be with the same cost and 4 times stronger unit? 
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On February 14 2013 04:52 SpeedyBozar wrote:I like the ideas of the thread maker. I also like the idea that hellbats should cost some gas. What I don't understand is why is hellion and hellbat basically the same unit? I mean... the hellbat is like 4 times stronger than the hellion. It doesn't fit to the concept. If hellion banshee opening was so good at WoL, how good can hellbat opening be with the same cost and 4 times stronger unit?
Because Armory investment that's why.
Same as infestation pit or Templar Archive.
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This One Reactor Hellbat Drop build hits almost just as fast as before, and with an extra Medivac.
Build Reactor on Rax while building Factory
Switch Reactor onto Factory to build 4 Hellions while building Starport
Switch Reactor onto Starport to build 2 Medivacs while building Armory
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A bit interesting, comparing the Firebat to the hellbat:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Firebat
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Hellbat
Firebat vs Hellbat
Cost 50/25 vs 100/0
Build time 24 vs 30
HP 50 vs 135
Supply 1 vs 2
Damage 16 vs 18(+12 vs light)
Attack speed (22/11stim) vs 2 (not comparable numbers, I believe 22 is about the same as 1.2 seconds in SC2)
Both are healable
The firebat wasn't used too much in BW as I remember it (might be wrong), so probably a bit on the weak side.
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On February 14 2013 11:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 04:52 SpeedyBozar wrote:I like the ideas of the thread maker. I also like the idea that hellbats should cost some gas. What I don't understand is why is hellion and hellbat basically the same unit? I mean... the hellbat is like 4 times stronger than the hellion. It doesn't fit to the concept. If hellion banshee opening was so good at WoL, how good can hellbat opening be with the same cost and 4 times stronger unit? Because Armory investment that's why. Same as infestation pit or Templar Archive.
Ye right. Like any cheap building that can even be made while hellions are being built is gonna make a HUUGE difference. Come on...
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On February 14 2013 21:50 SpeedyBozar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 11:24 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 14 2013 04:52 SpeedyBozar wrote:I like the ideas of the thread maker. I also like the idea that hellbats should cost some gas. What I don't understand is why is hellion and hellbat basically the same unit? I mean... the hellbat is like 4 times stronger than the hellion. It doesn't fit to the concept. If hellion banshee opening was so good at WoL, how good can hellbat opening be with the same cost and 4 times stronger unit? Because Armory investment that's why. Same as infestation pit or Templar Archive. Ye right. Like any cheap building that can even be made while hellions are being built is gonna make a HUUGE difference. Come on...
The same can be said for Anyone not leaving units to patrol for possible drops.
They are cheap units, Zerg can make 4x for the price of 100 minerals.
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EPT
