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On February 10 2013 18:36 Tailss wrote:
I feel like the big problem is that they are getting healed, making them next to impossible to kill during a drop. In TvZ particularly, some zergs pull their drones immediately, but then the hellbats just kills the roaches due to being healed anyway which eventually leaves the drones exposed.
I agree, the problem with Battle Hellions is a combination of the Medivac thrusters, Bio tag and unit cost to damage efficiency. I think if Blizzard made the Medivac thrusters an upgrade and removed the Bio tag then the Battle Hellions wouldn't be able to chase down the drone line as they run and they wouldn't be able to hold their ground vs Queens and Roaches by microing the Medivac so easily as opposed to loading up and flying off. Furthermore, removing the Bio tag is a buff for Battle Hellions vs Protoss because they can deny Archons their damage bonus vs Bio in a match up where Factory units are still failing to gain traction.
The other balance issue for Terrans right now is the Armory, because it gives Terrans access to a free unit upgrade, another unit produced at the Factory, Vehicle upgrades and +2/2 Infantry upgrades in a single tech structure while Infernal Pre-Igniter is no longer a relevant upgrade because the Armory automatically gives all of your existing Hellions an even better DPS upgrade by turning them into Battle Hellions. And if the Battle Hellion form is not going to be compatible with the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade (and I'm not saying it should be as things are) then why should we have the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade at all if Battle Hellions are clearly better than Blue Flame Hellions and don't require a Tech Lab and upgrade compared to naturally advancing your tech towards upgrades and Thors and increasing your production with a Reactor?
I think if they want to leave the Hellbat as the cost efficient, melee DPS unit that it is, then they need to eliminate its synergy with the Medivac by delaying the thrusters and removing the Bio tag and then replace the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade with a Battle Hellion transformation upgrade and return the Siege Tank transformation upgrade to the tech lab so that Terrans have to actually make thoughtful decisions regarding how they want to advance their tech, i.e. do I upgrade my Hellions, my Siege Tanks or my Widow Mines instead of just building a Factory for a free Hellion upgrade, Vehicle upgrades, +2/2, access to Thors and then getting to shut down almost all of Zerg's early timing attacks with either the new Widow Mines or free Siege tech on top of it.
I mean right now as a Terran player, the only upgrade I get at my Factory tech lab is Drilling Claws late into the mid-game, and there is something extremely wrong with that from a basic design perspective because the Drilling Claws are hardly even necessary to make Widow Mines function.
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On February 10 2013 09:44 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 09:43 TokO wrote:
What really confused me was why the hellbat wasn't armored. Immortals spent ages killing a hellbat healed by medivacs, something that doesn't really make sense to me. The reasons why hellbat isn't armored is because it's supposed to the unit that can actually help with immortals and zealots without insta dying like everything else in the mech arsenal if you don't get perfect EMPs :p
I can understand the fact that it's supposed to help against zealots, which is fair enough (being armored wouldn't change anything in the case of zealots). But being good against immortals basically mean that protoss don't have a cost-effective answer to hellbats until archons and colossus. Why do they have to be strong against immortals when Immortals are already being countered by almost all other terran units, except siege tanks and thors?
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On February 10 2013 06:20 FreeTossCZComentary wrote:
I have different way to solve it - way Hellbat is, as units, its way too flexible.
I've been arguing this since the moment the idea of the Hellbat was released. The Hellion is already a very strong harass unit, giving it big utility in battles was the wrong idea, especially since it is a mineral only unit. It can do everything the Zealot or 4 Zerglings can do, it just does it so much better.
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I just realized that this is the intention of Blizzard to use hellbats for harass.
Why?
A) marine drop timings are too well known
B) widow mine drops take forever to burrow and frustrating to diamond and below
C) reapers are too easy to shut down (4 queens/ling surround)
Which leaves the hellbat drop. A unit that benefits from being surrounded AND can be healed
Why else would they remove the research requirement in armory?
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On February 11 2013 00:59 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 09:44 Qikz wrote:On February 10 2013 09:43 TokO wrote:
What really confused me was why the hellbat wasn't armored. Immortals spent ages killing a hellbat healed by medivacs, something that doesn't really make sense to me. The reasons why hellbat isn't armored is because it's supposed to the unit that can actually help with immortals and zealots without insta dying like everything else in the mech arsenal if you don't get perfect EMPs :p I can understand the fact that it's supposed to help against zealots, which is fair enough (being armored wouldn't change anything in the case of zealots). But being good against immortals basically mean that protoss don't have a cost-effective answer to hellbats until archons and colossus. Why do they have to be strong against immortals when Immortals are already being countered by almost all other terran units, except siege tanks and thors?
Immortals are soft countered by marines and marauders, now hellbats. They hard counter tanks, thors, and bunkers. When not in a vacuum situation (ie with sentries, zealots, and stalkers), they're still useful against bio (especially marauders). Even with Terran support, they still wreck thors, bunkers, and tanks.
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On February 10 2013 11:21 Evangelist wrote:
They don't need a nerf. What needs to happen is people need to learn how to defend them.
It's not hard. They have a range of 2.
Agreed man. I'd be mad for a day if they did.
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On February 11 2013 04:37 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 00:59 TokO wrote:On February 10 2013 09:44 Qikz wrote:On February 10 2013 09:43 TokO wrote:
What really confused me was why the hellbat wasn't armored. Immortals spent ages killing a hellbat healed by medivacs, something that doesn't really make sense to me. The reasons why hellbat isn't armored is because it's supposed to the unit that can actually help with immortals and zealots without insta dying like everything else in the mech arsenal if you don't get perfect EMPs :p I can understand the fact that it's supposed to help against zealots, which is fair enough (being armored wouldn't change anything in the case of zealots). But being good against immortals basically mean that protoss don't have a cost-effective answer to hellbats until archons and colossus. Why do they have to be strong against immortals when Immortals are already being countered by almost all other terran units, except siege tanks and thors? Immortals are soft countered by marines and marauders, now hellbats. They hard counter tanks, thors, and bunkers. When not in a vacuum situation (ie with sentries, zealots, and stalkers), they're still useful against bio (especially marauders). Even with Terran support, they still wreck thors, bunkers, and tanks.
I agree with everything except the bolded. Yes, they are not horrible against bio, but they're also not cost-efficient in terms of opportunity cost. Which explains why modern PvT has moved away from building immortals, and rather going straight to additional gateways\observers\tech. Immortals fills a gap where you need the extra dps to be safe against all-ins, but don't have the production facilities to provide this (which is why you are willing to sacrifice the resources), Planetary Nexus should be an adequate replacement for this. And yes, they wreck tanks, thors and bunkers, but that's really irrelevant in terms of bio-hellbat timing attacks before tier 3.
I'm not arguing that immortals are shit, they aren't. However, it doesn't make sense that a 100 mineral unit (with medivac support) is outperforming a 250/100 unit so severely, especially when the other units in the bio arsenal is already very potent against the immortal.
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On February 11 2013 05:51 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 04:37 aksfjh wrote:On February 11 2013 00:59 TokO wrote:On February 10 2013 09:44 Qikz wrote:On February 10 2013 09:43 TokO wrote:
What really confused me was why the hellbat wasn't armored. Immortals spent ages killing a hellbat healed by medivacs, something that doesn't really make sense to me. The reasons why hellbat isn't armored is because it's supposed to the unit that can actually help with immortals and zealots without insta dying like everything else in the mech arsenal if you don't get perfect EMPs :p I can understand the fact that it's supposed to help against zealots, which is fair enough (being armored wouldn't change anything in the case of zealots). But being good against immortals basically mean that protoss don't have a cost-effective answer to hellbats until archons and colossus. Why do they have to be strong against immortals when Immortals are already being countered by almost all other terran units, except siege tanks and thors? Immortals are soft countered by marines and marauders, now hellbats. They hard counter tanks, thors, and bunkers. When not in a vacuum situation (ie with sentries, zealots, and stalkers), they're still useful against bio (especially marauders). Even with Terran support, they still wreck thors, bunkers, and tanks. I agree with everything except the bolded. Yes, they are not horrible against bio, but they're also not cost-efficient in terms of opportunity cost. Which explains why modern PvT has moved away from building immortals, and rather going straight to additional gateways\observers\tech. Immortals fills a gap where you need the extra dps to be safe against all-ins, but don't have the production facilities to provide this (which is why you are willing to sacrifice the resources), Planetary Nexus should be an adequate replacement for this. And yes, they wreck tanks, thors and bunkers, but that's really irrelevant in terms of bio-hellbat timing attacks before tier 3. I'm not arguing that immortals are shit, they aren't. However, it doesn't make sense that a 100 mineral unit (with medivac support) is outperforming a 250/100 unit so severely, especially when the other units in the bio arsenal is already very potent against the immortal.
This 100 mineral unit with medivac is actually 2 units. The medivac costs 100/100 and both units take 2 supply, so thats 200/100 4 supply, 2 units working in synergy.
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On February 11 2013 05:51 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 04:37 aksfjh wrote:On February 11 2013 00:59 TokO wrote:On February 10 2013 09:44 Qikz wrote:On February 10 2013 09:43 TokO wrote:
What really confused me was why the hellbat wasn't armored. Immortals spent ages killing a hellbat healed by medivacs, something that doesn't really make sense to me. The reasons why hellbat isn't armored is because it's supposed to the unit that can actually help with immortals and zealots without insta dying like everything else in the mech arsenal if you don't get perfect EMPs :p I can understand the fact that it's supposed to help against zealots, which is fair enough (being armored wouldn't change anything in the case of zealots). But being good against immortals basically mean that protoss don't have a cost-effective answer to hellbats until archons and colossus. Why do they have to be strong against immortals when Immortals are already being countered by almost all other terran units, except siege tanks and thors? Immortals are soft countered by marines and marauders, now hellbats. They hard counter tanks, thors, and bunkers. When not in a vacuum situation (ie with sentries, zealots, and stalkers), they're still useful against bio (especially marauders). Even with Terran support, they still wreck thors, bunkers, and tanks. I agree with everything except the bolded. Yes, they are not horrible against bio, but they're also not cost-efficient in terms of opportunity cost. Which explains why modern PvT has moved away from building immortals, and rather going straight to additional gateways\observers\tech. Immortals fills a gap where you need the extra dps to be safe against all-ins, but don't have the production facilities to provide this (which is why you are willing to sacrifice the resources), Planetary Nexus should be an adequate replacement for this. And yes, they wreck tanks, thors and bunkers, but that's really irrelevant in terms of bio-hellbat timing attacks before tier 3. I'm not arguing that immortals are shit, they aren't. However, it doesn't make sense that a 100 mineral unit (with medivac support) is outperforming a 250/100 unit so severely, especially when the other units in the bio arsenal is already very potent against the immortal.
Armored hellbats would make banelings obsolete. Zerg would have a ridiculously tough time dealing with bio/hellbat armies.
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The balance is done, no major changes will happen before may 12th. Hellbats are fine, l2p!
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I think they just plainly need to nerf Hellbat dps and remove the medivac speed boost. Right now 1 medivac and 4 hellbats has way too much harrass potential imo.
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Its not worse than the oracle harras. You need to have defence for it. Is that so bad?
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United States7483 Posts
On February 11 2013 08:04 OyvN wrote:
Its not worse than the oracle harras. You need to have defence for it. Is that so bad?
Oracle harass is trivial to defend in comparison, and is substantially less catastrophic.
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On February 11 2013 06:31 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 05:51 TokO wrote:On February 11 2013 04:37 aksfjh wrote:On February 11 2013 00:59 TokO wrote:On February 10 2013 09:44 Qikz wrote:On February 10 2013 09:43 TokO wrote:
What really confused me was why the hellbat wasn't armored. Immortals spent ages killing a hellbat healed by medivacs, something that doesn't really make sense to me. The reasons why hellbat isn't armored is because it's supposed to the unit that can actually help with immortals and zealots without insta dying like everything else in the mech arsenal if you don't get perfect EMPs :p I can understand the fact that it's supposed to help against zealots, which is fair enough (being armored wouldn't change anything in the case of zealots). But being good against immortals basically mean that protoss don't have a cost-effective answer to hellbats until archons and colossus. Why do they have to be strong against immortals when Immortals are already being countered by almost all other terran units, except siege tanks and thors? Immortals are soft countered by marines and marauders, now hellbats. They hard counter tanks, thors, and bunkers. When not in a vacuum situation (ie with sentries, zealots, and stalkers), they're still useful against bio (especially marauders). Even with Terran support, they still wreck thors, bunkers, and tanks. I agree with everything except the bolded. Yes, they are not horrible against bio, but they're also not cost-efficient in terms of opportunity cost. Which explains why modern PvT has moved away from building immortals, and rather going straight to additional gateways\observers\tech. Immortals fills a gap where you need the extra dps to be safe against all-ins, but don't have the production facilities to provide this (which is why you are willing to sacrifice the resources), Planetary Nexus should be an adequate replacement for this. And yes, they wreck tanks, thors and bunkers, but that's really irrelevant in terms of bio-hellbat timing attacks before tier 3. I'm not arguing that immortals are shit, they aren't. However, it doesn't make sense that a 100 mineral unit (with medivac support) is outperforming a 250/100 unit so severely, especially when the other units in the bio arsenal is already very potent against the immortal. Armored hellbats would make banelings obsolete. Zerg would have a ridiculously tough time dealing with bio/hellbat armies.
Do you really use banelings against hellbats regardless? Wouldn't mind having them be Light-Armored though xD
@The comment about Medivacs: Yes, it's 2 units working in synergy, which costs the same as an immortal, but immortals themselves can't really fly into a mineral-line and splash all over workers xD
I don't mind hellbats being a very strong unit too much, but the way that the game is moving, robo is becoming more and more obsolete as the staple defensive build of protoss.
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On February 11 2013 08:04 OyvN wrote:
Its not worse than the oracle harras. You need to have defence for it. Is that so bad?
Except oracles are easily killed. And cannot be healed in combat. One missile turret counters an oracle. One missile turret does not counter a hellbat drop. Hell even a planetary doesn't counter it. You'll still lose your entire mineral line because of medivac speed boost.
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On February 11 2013 05:51 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 04:37 aksfjh wrote:On February 11 2013 00:59 TokO wrote:On February 10 2013 09:44 Qikz wrote:On February 10 2013 09:43 TokO wrote:
What really confused me was why the hellbat wasn't armored. Immortals spent ages killing a hellbat healed by medivacs, something that doesn't really make sense to me. The reasons why hellbat isn't armored is because it's supposed to the unit that can actually help with immortals and zealots without insta dying like everything else in the mech arsenal if you don't get perfect EMPs :p I can understand the fact that it's supposed to help against zealots, which is fair enough (being armored wouldn't change anything in the case of zealots). But being good against immortals basically mean that protoss don't have a cost-effective answer to hellbats until archons and colossus. Why do they have to be strong against immortals when Immortals are already being countered by almost all other terran units, except siege tanks and thors? Immortals are soft countered by marines and marauders, now hellbats. They hard counter tanks, thors, and bunkers. When not in a vacuum situation (ie with sentries, zealots, and stalkers), they're still useful against bio (especially marauders). Even with Terran support, they still wreck thors, bunkers, and tanks. I agree with everything except the bolded. Yes, they are not horrible against bio, but they're also not cost-efficient in terms of opportunity cost. Which explains why modern PvT has moved away from building immortals, and rather going straight to additional gateways\observers\tech. Immortals fills a gap where you need the extra dps to be safe against all-ins, but don't have the production facilities to provide this (which is why you are willing to sacrifice the resources), Planetary Nexus should be an adequate replacement for this. And yes, they wreck tanks, thors and bunkers, but that's really irrelevant in terms of bio-hellbat timing attacks before tier 3. I'm not arguing that immortals are shit, they aren't. However, it doesn't make sense that a 100 mineral unit (with medivac support) is outperforming a 250/100 unit so severely, especially when the other units in the bio arsenal is already very potent against the immortal.
That's what I meant by "soft counter." You shouldn't be pumping out immortals to counter bio, but you're not going to feel like an idiot if you have some in your army against bio.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
I understand what people are saying about the immortal should be good against the hellbat, but the hellbat is pretty much the only thing keeping mech from dying to just mass immortal.
I played mech in WoL and other than hoping you could get air out in time you would literally just die to immortal zealot, even with EMPs (it was always hard to get enough). Hellions couldn't tank well against immortals as the splash damage from the zealots being shot at left them dead and your tanks just got rolled the hell over by immortals.
Now with the hellbat I feel I finally have a decent buffer infront of immortals so the immortals have to engage them while being shot by tanks, even if there's no zealots. I think the hellbat personally is the one thing that's made mech in TvP so much more viable and on ladder I've been doing Tank/Hellbat/Thor into viking raven if they do an air switch and it's been great since I finally feel like I can actually leave my base and do any form of push since I can get an advantage even while in an aggressive position without needing building walls everywhere.
The immortal as a unit completely decemates all things mech minus the hellbat. If the hellbat loses it's power, then mech is just going to go back to dying to mass robo again like back in WoL I feel.
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On February 11 2013 08:13 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 08:04 OyvN wrote:
Its not worse than the oracle harras. You need to have defence for it. Is that so bad? Except oracles are easily killed. And cannot be healed in combat. One missile turret counters an oracle. One missile turret does not counter a hellbat drop. Hell even a planetary doesn't counter it. You'll still lose your entire mineral line because of medivac speed boost.
You scout it. So you place units near mineral lines and you can lay a mine or place a turret in or near the line. When the drop comes you run the workers away, focus the medivac so he cant pick up and chase workers. You should have a viking by now.
edit: now you kite the shit out for the hellbats with normal hellions
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On February 11 2013 08:34 Qikz wrote:
I understand what people are saying about the immortal should be good against the hellbat, but the hellbat is pretty much the only thing keeping mech from dying to just mass immortal.
I played mech in WoL and other than hoping you could get air out in time you would literally just die to immortal zealot, even with EMPs (it was always hard to get enough). Hellions couldn't tank well against immortals as the splash damage from the zealots being shot at left them dead and your tanks just got rolled the hell over by immortals.
Now with the hellbat I feel I finally have a decent buffer infront of immortals so the immortals have to engage them while being shot by tanks, even if there's no zealots. I think the hellbat personally is the one thing that's made mech in TvP so much more viable and on ladder I've been doing Tank/Hellbat/Thor into viking raven if they do an air switch and it's been great since I finally feel like I can actually leave my base and do any form of push since I can get an advantage even while in an aggressive position without needing building walls everywhere.
The immortal as a unit completely decemates all things mech minus the hellbat. If the hellbat loses it's power, then mech is just going to go back to dying to mass robo again like back in WoL I feel.
You're absolutely right, and that's the whole issue. I just don't see why marines couldn't fill that role. The reason for Terran tank-based pushes or 1-1-1's vs. Protoss being so potent, was the fact that there was a huge(decent) marine ball tanking the tanks for any zealots or immortals.
I think that mech has always been quite powerful in a lot of scenarios where the build was actually thought out and tested. Bio didn't really enter this state that it is in before a group of players laid out the timings in which you could play in.
The problem I have is that currently mech is really viable when just "winging" a build, including a few hellbats, tanks and thors. Think of the potential when people start churning out some really abusive timings.
@aksfjh: 1. You're not going to feel like an idiot, if having a few immortals saved you from dying to an all-in. 2. You're missing my point. In most other cases, I would feel like an idiot, because if I spent those 250/100 on other things, I most likely would have been better off against anything bio.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On February 11 2013 09:11 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 08:34 Qikz wrote:
I understand what people are saying about the immortal should be good against the hellbat, but the hellbat is pretty much the only thing keeping mech from dying to just mass immortal.
I played mech in WoL and other than hoping you could get air out in time you would literally just die to immortal zealot, even with EMPs (it was always hard to get enough). Hellions couldn't tank well against immortals as the splash damage from the zealots being shot at left them dead and your tanks just got rolled the hell over by immortals.
Now with the hellbat I feel I finally have a decent buffer infront of immortals so the immortals have to engage them while being shot by tanks, even if there's no zealots. I think the hellbat personally is the one thing that's made mech in TvP so much more viable and on ladder I've been doing Tank/Hellbat/Thor into viking raven if they do an air switch and it's been great since I finally feel like I can actually leave my base and do any form of push since I can get an advantage even while in an aggressive position without needing building walls everywhere.
The immortal as a unit completely decemates all things mech minus the hellbat. If the hellbat loses it's power, then mech is just going to go back to dying to mass robo again like back in WoL I feel. You're absolutely right, and that's the whole issue. I just don't see why marines couldn't fill that role. The reason for Terran tank-based pushes or 1-1-1's vs. Protoss being so potent, was the fact that there was a huge(decent) marine ball tanking the tanks for any zealots or immortals. I think that mech has always been quite powerful in a lot of scenarios where the build was actually thought out and tested. Bio didn't really enter this state that it is in before a group of players laid out the timings in which you could play in. The problem I have is that currently mech is really viable when just "winging" a build, including a few hellbats, tanks and thors. Think of the potential when people start churning out some really abusive timings.
That's pretty much the same with any build at any level in the game minus say pro level, grandmasters and high masters. Anyone can build units and go kill the enemy, if anything bio is the worst for that. Mech is still really hard to pull off and I've been finding myself that you can do a 6 fact timing from 2 base to punish a fast double expanding toss pretty nicely if he doesn't go stargate, although if he does you need to add a starport instead of the 2 extra facts and get vikings/turrets for your push.
I've been having success with it, but outside specific timings I've found for myself at my own level, I pretty much die late game to anything stargate (although everyones suffering that currently).
I'd much rather have mech possible at any level like bio if you just wing it, because at the pro level that's never going to happen. If mech even gets picked up by pros vs toss (Kespa terrans I'm looking at you please, I need inspiration) then those timings will start to come to foot, but if they're timings to be abused, that's a good thing otherwise it means the game is stale and nobody can ever attack each other (see WoL PvZ).
EDIT: Also with your point about getting some tanks, thors and hellbats. Where's the issue there? That's a pretty diverse composition much like zealot/stalker/sentry for example.
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EPT
