EPT[D]Hellbat/Battle Hellion timing alternative ideas - Page 4
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TheSwagger
United States92 Posts
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llIH
Norway2143 Posts
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TheSwagger
United States92 Posts
On February 10 2013 23:13 MoonCricket wrote: I agree, the problem with Battle Hellions is a combination of the Medivac thrusters, Bio tag and unit cost to damage efficiency. I think if Blizzard made the Medivac thrusters an upgrade and removed the Bio tag then the Battle Hellions wouldn't be able to chase down the drone line as they run and they wouldn't be able to hold their ground vs Queens and Roaches by microing the Medivac so easily as opposed to loading up and flying off. Furthermore, removing the Bio tag is a buff for Battle Hellions vs Protoss because they can deny Archons their damage bonus vs Bio in a match up where Factory units are still failing to gain traction. The other balance issue for Terrans right now is the Armory, because it gives Terrans access to a free unit upgrade, another unit produced at the Factory, Vehicle upgrades and +2/2 Infantry upgrades in a single tech structure while Infernal Pre-Igniter is no longer a relevant upgrade because the Armory automatically gives all of your existing Hellions an even better DPS upgrade by turning them into Battle Hellions. And if the Battle Hellion form is not going to be compatible with the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade (and I'm not saying it should be as things are) then why should we have the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade at all if Battle Hellions are clearly better than Blue Flame Hellions and don't require a Tech Lab and upgrade compared to naturally advancing your tech towards upgrades and Thors and increasing your production with a Reactor? I think if they want to leave the Hellbat as the cost efficient, melee DPS unit that it is, then they need to eliminate its synergy with the Medivac by delaying the thrusters and removing the Bio tag and then replace the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade with a Battle Hellion transformation upgrade and return the Siege Tank transformation upgrade to the tech lab so that Terrans have to actually make thoughtful decisions regarding how they want to advance their tech, i.e. do I upgrade my Hellions, my Siege Tanks or my Widow Mines instead of just building a Factory for a free Hellion upgrade, Vehicle upgrades, +2/2, access to Thors and then getting to shut down almost all of Zerg's early timing attacks with either the new Widow Mines or free Siege tech on top of it. I mean right now as a Terran player, the only upgrade I get at my Factory tech lab is Drilling Claws late into the mid-game, and there is something extremely wrong with that from a basic design perspective because the Drilling Claws are hardly even necessary to make Widow Mines function. Blue Flame Hellions are still completely worth using, they have a very static role in the gameplay (hence the new transformation, completely different from its predecessor) The BFH does a great job of being mobile and inflicting damage fast. Some people might argue that the medivac makes the hellbat more mobile, I will argue back - no shit - it makes every unit more mobile. That is its point. If we get down the the nitty gritty, BFH into hellbat mode, in my opinion, were WAY stronger last patch with the wide-arc AOE, who the hell needed a heal? Mech was disgustingly strong. I like the synergy now, it makes it the battle hellion more versatile, sacrificing some damage surface area. I feel like the hellbat is an interesting unit because if you go full mech you dont need the medivacs becaause the tanks have great coverage, but if you go bio they would be a nuisance and you would have to CONSTANTLY rebuild them because theyre in the front and will take all the big hits/major damage. But the fact remains that bio pushes with the hellbat make later-game engagements with bio more viable for Terran players. I think that is the fundamental purpose of it being a bio unit. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
I don't think mech is hard to pull off if you account for and expect the weaknesses of mech. Mech is definately strategically more demanding than bio, because of the amplitude of the weaknesses and advantages are much greater than with bio. Bio is a very versatile force, and therefore might seem stronger due to the less severe implications on various situations. You might feel that it is hard to pull off because you're lacking knowledge in what's the optimal allocation of resources, while a protoss who is more familiar with the dynamics of his units from WoL can much more comfortably make a well balanced response in terms of where he puts his resources. This will definately change as people become more accustomed to mech. Mech has already been temporarily picked up by some pros in WoL and will definately be explored in HotS. For the last point. The issue with dishing together a couple of tanks, thors and hellbats being very effective is that the composition does not have any glaring hard-counters. Less mobility means more power to the composition, because of the smaller potential for micro. So you have a really strong army without any strong counter. Bio in contrast had hard counters in storm and colossus, which could be countered while getting your own counters away from bio. Mech isn't really that weak against colossus. Well, it's pretty darn weak, but usually only in conjunction with immortals and chargelots, and in later timings. Anyway, the dynamics might work out, but tbh, I was arguing about the early-midgame potential of the hellbats and the lack of counters from protoss in that time period, not the overall unit and its dynamic in mech. Stargate seems pretty strong, but the infrastructural investment and time spent to get to that critical point is very large, and I 'm pretty sure that if you do a 3-base all-in'ish kind of thing against protoss, similar to what Protoss did against zerg pre-broodlord timings, I think you should be pretty alright. There are a few parallels that can be drawn. Hellbats smooth out the transition to lategame mech a lot, in the same way, the empowered void rays and nexus cannon smooth out the transition to lategame skytoss. If you're uncomfortable with how accessible Skytoss is atm, you should feel my concern about hellbats ^^ EDIT: To defend this as toss, given that you suspect a hellbat or widowmine opening: 1. Probe pull as soon as you see it coming. 2. Photon Overcharge on Nexus. 3. Stalker based opening, zealots are useless against anything mech based, and stalkers do alright against marines anyway. 4. With a stargate opening, I usually go Oracle -> Phoenix, to be safe incase of a widowmine drop, but I think you might be able to go Phoenix -> Oracle and have them both finish by the time the drop hits. Not sure if I would risk it though as a widow mine drop should hit before a hellbat drop? Anyway, you can have your air units scout around for the hellions, medivacs or mines etc. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On February 11 2013 09:37 llIH wrote: Widow mine one shots the medivac. If you place it correctly you can shut down the drop completely. No it doesn't... | ||
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
On February 11 2013 09:41 TheSwagger wrote: Blue Flame Hellions are still completely worth using, they have a very static role in the gameplay (hence the new transformation, completely different from its predecessor) The BFH does a great job of being mobile and inflicting damage fast. Some people might argue that the medivac makes the hellbat more mobile, I will argue back - no shit - it makes every unit more mobile. That is its point. If we get down the the nitty gritty, BFH into hellbat mode, in my opinion, were WAY stronger last patch with the wide-arc AOE, who the hell needed a heal? Mech was disgustingly strong. I like the synergy now, it makes it the battle hellion more versatile, sacrificing some damage surface area. I feel like the hellbat is an interesting unit because if you go full mech you dont need the medivacs becaause the tanks have great coverage, but if you go bio they would be a nuisance and you would have to CONSTANTLY rebuild them because theyre in the front and will take all the big hits/major damage. But the fact remains that bio pushes with the hellbat make later-game engagements with bio more viable for Terran players. I think that is the fundamental purpose of it being a bio unit. I'm not saying Hellions and Infernal Pre-Igniter are worthless, but honestly ask yourself when was the last time you skipped your Reactor, Armory and Battle Hellions in exchange for a Tech Lab, Infernal Pre-Igniter and Blue Flame Hellions within the first ten minutes of the game? The point is the Armory has become the premier tech structure for Terran, because why build a Tech Lab and research Infernal Pre-Igniters when you could build an Armory, start 2/2 infantry upgrades, start 1/0 vehicle upgrades, transform your Hellions, build Thors and get Siege tech as icing on top of the cake? The Armory is the most cost effective tech structure in SC2 and Battle Hellions significantly reduce the utility of Infernal Pre-Igniter to the point where I think it's better to remove the Battle Hellions from the Armory and replace Infernal Pre-Igniter with Transformation Servos at the Tech Lab for like 100/100 80sec just so Terrans have to make meaningful decisions between a Reactor or a Tech Lab or Transformation Servos or Siege Tech instead of just building a Reactor on the Barracks, exchanging the Reactor with the Factory, building a Starport, building a Medivac, building an Armory and then having access to the most powerful drop in the game at like 7 minutes and then being able to go straight into upgrades, Siege Tanks and Thors without missing a beat all while having mass Widow Mines to pretty much hold off any early Zerg push. There's just no convincing reason to build a Tech Lab and research Infernal Pre-Igniters compared to building an Armory in any build order right now. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
It's a New Game. Multiplayer experience WILL BE DIFFERENT. Edit: IMHO, the key difference between an expansion and a new game is that Paradigms and unit interactions are redefined, see SC:BW and SC2, medics are no longer in the multiplayer, replaced with the more versatile medivac. Unlike SC and SCBW, where new units added options such as the addition and interaction between medic and other infantry units but did not transform the traditional synergies of bio-play. The example of the hellbat-medivac drop, TRANSFORMS the state of the game, no more will out-numbering the drop and a good surround defend against such drop, it is the opposite! The same goes for the oracle/tempest, Protoss no longer need to rely on Robo to destroy masses of light units, long range needs and for detection, the Stargate offers the same and more! If anything, Blizzard needs to do MORE not less to transform SC2: HotS into full new game as claimed rather than an expansion. HotS dynamics and synergies must DESTROY WoL timings and BOs. E.g. A 1base mass marine timing all-in gets absolutely demolished by a few well placed widow mines charging up the ramp. A 2 base ling/bling timing all-in gets crushed by running into oracles and sentries. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
Its very slow so you should be able to pull probes. But, in reality you find that the speed medivac lets you catch up to the probes and drop ahead behind and around them with good micro. It's the inevitability of the damage that becomes a problem. They also do a LOT of damage in the early phases of the game when their opponents don't have a lot of units out. Sure, you can say "protoss, zerg, why not just expand later to your nat/third?" "tech earlier to roaches" But the problem is that preparing for the hellbat drop or widow mine drop (both exacerbated by speed medivacs) for the "proper" tech when you see terran gas opening puts you behind a terran gas expand. If you show one gas, then take an orbital (especially as protoss with limited scouting options early game) you end up economically behind in an attempt to be safe vs hellbats and/or widow mines. The fact a medivac can speed boost from the starport and cross the map quickly, then wait for the cooldown then speed boost past AA defenses makes it crazy hard to deal with. But this is just my experience which could be completely wrong. | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
Not to mention the unit is great at actual combat. It's going to get nerfed hard, some times you have to wonder about blizzard they can be geniuses and do some really dumb shit like designing that unit. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On February 11 2013 23:57 sibs wrote: Hellbat + Medivac is like HT drops, Baneling drops, Burrowed infestors, only much cheaper , faster, less risky, with less tech commitment, and doesn't rely on surprise because even if talented players know it's coming they still more than pay for themselves. Not to mention the unit is great at actual combat. It's going to get nerfed hard, some times you have to wonder about blizzard they can be geniuses and do some really dumb shit like designing that unit. You are comparing apples with oranges, grapes and an elephant Well played hellbat drops require an opponent to attempt to SURROUND the hellbats and the T to perfectly execute pick-and-drop reaver-style micro while activating afterburners at key moments or get the medivac sniped and lose the mineral equivalent of an expansion. Translation: You got outplayed son. Edit: damned auto-correct | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On February 11 2013 23:16 ZeromuS wrote:Its very slow so you should be able to pull probes. But, in reality you find that the speed medivac lets you catch up to the probes and drop ahead behind and around them with good micro. It's the inevitability of the damage that becomes a problem. I'm not sure how much hands-on experience you have with this to cite reality. If the medivac isn't the first thing you focus down when you spot it, then you're going to have a bad day. Pulling probes is possible, especially once the medivac has dropped the hellbats. It is very difficult for the terran player to pick up the hellbats again (doing this would definately make the remaining ranged units focus the medivac) to relocate to another place where you've pulled the probes. Usually the medivac will use speedboost to get into your mineral line, if not I can sort of see the scenario where the medivac can chase the probes. Protoss players should be careful against all kinds of drops if they scout anything but a gas-less fast expand. EDIT: I definately think it's manageable to hold it and come out even or ahead as protoss. Usually, the reason you fall behind is that you lose your cool and go into panic mode, stop making probes etc. Terran's expand is very delayed. Zerg struggles a little bit more, but their macro mechanics are pretty strong, so I don't mind Terran having options to contain it slightly more, maybe forcing a spore\spine or an extra queen. | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
I can't even fathom how one could be so incompetent to lose a loaded medivac to Zerg before Lair, you need to be trying to be that bad. I'll be really really surprised if that unit isn't nerfed hard. | ||
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Dandy_Moustachu
France422 Posts
- nerf their base damage - Blue flame upgrade boost them to the point they are now IMO the stongest part of the hellbat rush is that with the medivac they are able to catch up drone and that they can be pick up micro to escape more than the healing part | ||
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BigAsia
Canada451 Posts
On February 12 2013 00:26 sibs wrote: It doesn't have to be well played, it's an AOE unit that does 30 damage per shot, it also has 130hp, you can drop that shit on top of roaches/spinecrawlers, unless dude has his whole army there(and that army has roaches) it'll be cost efficient. I can't even fathom how one could be so incompetent to lose a loaded medivac to Zerg before Lair, you need to be trying to be that bad. I'll be really really surprised if that unit isn't nerfed hard. /whine Anyways at first I had a lot of problems dealing with this, but now I want terran players to do it because its such a heavy investment and I get really far ahead. Basically you deal with it like you are dealing with cloaked banshees. Overlord scout ~6:30 mark, spore crawler in each mineral line, extra queens. When the medivac flies focus it with queens, (it should be about half health due to the spore crawler), then u bring it down easily. Pull drones, micro queens a bit and continue macroing. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On February 10 2013 16:45 PaperPrinter wrote: Hellbats simply need to not do damage in a huge aoe around themselves, they should have a similar attack as hellions except maybe even less range than hellions. Maybe zerglings wouldn't be obsolete vs Terran then. Well, the whole point of hell bats were to counter lings. Pro zergs got so good with their ling control that they could trade evenly vs marine/tank. Given their mobility and better production of the Zerg, it basically let the Zerg control the entire game. Not sure why hellbats shouldn't make lings obsolete. You realize roaches also make hellions obsolete in a straight up fight, right? | ||
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mrpinto
1 Post
On February 12 2013 01:00 BigAsia wrote: Anyways at first I had a lot of problems dealing with this, but now I want terran players to do it because its such a heavy investment and I get really far ahead. Basically you deal with it like you are dealing with cloaked banshees. Overlord scout ~6:30 mark, spore crawler in each mineral line, extra queens. When the medivac flies focus it with queens, (it should be about half health due to the spore crawler), then u bring it down easily. Pull drones, micro queens a bit and continue macroing. On a small map, the hellbat drop can HIT around 6:30, right? Most of the time it's in the 7:00/7:30 range, but scouting at 6:30 still seems a little late. I'd want to scout far earlier so that I can get spores and an early roach warren down. No roaches means he can just drop straight on whatever you have and kill it - forget the mineral line. 4 hellbats and a medivac will beat 2-3 queens and pretty much any number of lings and drones in a straight-up fight. | ||
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Therapist.
United States207 Posts
Terran can outmicro hellbats with any unit even without stim. This means that the only thing they have to worry about is the medivac. A single turret in the mineral line means that he can't drop on the mineral line without his medivac dying or coming close to dying. This being the case, since hellbats are so slow, you can micro the SCVs away from the hellbats with minimal loss. With only ONE TURRET to defend, you make it so the medivac can't afford to make more than one pass at the mineral line, so you're okay. Doesn't take any special scouting either. Reapers extremely easily outmicro hellbats. Marines/Marauders also can, even without concussive shells. Hellions outmicro them. A banshee can kill them after the medivac is out. Any build with a starport that gets a viking should deal with it no problem. Any build with a factory can get a widow mine or two. Zerg can defend this very well with only a few roaches and queens as well, as long as they are vigilant in targetting the medivac with queens. Good positioning makes it hard to get the drop off without taking huge damage on the medivac. With the queens targetting the medivac, you only get a pass or two before it's done and the hellbats are left on their own. Once the hellbats are without the medivac, nothing more should be lost to them. Protoss and their mothership core + photon overcharge seem to have the easiest time dealing with hellbat drops. With a couple stalkers and the mothership core focusing the medivac right away, they can then use stalkers and the mothership core to micro against the hellbats. They can also use photon overcharge if they need a little extra help killing either the hellbats or the medivac. Also want to add if you're doing a fast expand build... it's okay to lose some workers. You really shouldn't lose all of them. Think of the hellbats as a reaver drop. | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
Also want to add if you're doing a fast expand build... it's okay to lose some workers. You really shouldn't lose all of them. Think of the hellbats as a reaver drop. A 'reaver' drop that only costs 400 minerals. It's a mineral dump that requires positioning, planning, reflexes, micromanagement and the right build to defend against. On the attacking player's side it requires absolutely nothing. Every terran player should keep doing Hellbat drops throughout every macro game to enemy 2nd, 3rd and 4th mineral lines while the real combat is fought elsewhere. This will guarantee a victory. The Hellbat drops do much more damage than any bio drop used to, with much less room for error. The only reason this is being defended against on occasion is because not only are many Terran players still new to the builds themselves or just outright bad. If the patch goes live HotS in its current form the only thing we'll see is the first ladder season ruined and possibly the first Code A and Code S seasons dominated by professional terrans abusing ultra fast reaper harasses, Widow Mine rushes and Hellbats in all their uses. This will ultimately result in most of everything Terran has being nerfed, but atleast they'll have one hurrah during season 1. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
I've played against some players that are just really good at boosting in and dropping while the medivac is moving and covering your entire mineral line. If done right no matter which direction you split workers they are melting. Perhaps another option would be to not allow the medivac to unload while being boosted. Make boost more about retreating and get rid of the zoom in and drop while moving that allows you to spread units way better than without boost. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On February 11 2013 09:37 llIH wrote: Widow mine one shots the medivac. If you place it correctly you can shut down the drop completely. *two shots | ||
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