EPTPvP HotS: Broke the Matchup - Page 2
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
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MistSC2
Sweden583 Posts
 Cant do robo anymore which was my preffered build in WoL. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Now the weaker but easier to use Swarm Voidrays have a few weaknesses when fighting Toss. First of all their supply isn't that overpowered anymore. Of course they are strong at the start, but the new Phoenix can fight them pretty well now and are better at picking of the guardian shield. And with the lowered damage output against Massive Archons also pose a nice defense against them. Also can't forget the improved Carrier that in Wings just did badly because of the supply efficiency of the Voidray and the interceptors having problems when changing targets. So Voidrays have their conter in the lategame now compared to Wings. And in the early/midgame Stalkers can fight them, especially since they can easily avoid the charge without taking to much losses. Personally I hope Voidrays will see some use now that a baby can handle them right. But they aren't the overpowered beasts from Wings anymore that no one could handle, because the micro involved in them would mean you get overrun by a-move units. So there are enough unit >> Voidray in PvP in Swarm | ||
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Mongolbonjwa
Finland376 Posts
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PXEnTei
United States209 Posts
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Alryk
United States2718 Posts
On February 09 2013 11:47 aYtDuSteR wrote: you have absolutely no idea what I'm trying to say. Against gateway comp you go colossus and it plays out exactly like wol. To they guy who said greedy blink opening will be hard to stop. You have more army value opening phoenix then he does going blink. Greedier stargate builds require changing the build slightly as mentioned in the op. Hence why you scout. You can make this build as greedy as you want. I did not go into depth on phoenix vs phoenix because I thought the natural tech progression was implied.The point is that stargate vs stargate is a lot more volatile then wol was. If you're down phoenix you have no map presence and run the risk of losing the game due to 1 missmicro on the field. ..if YOU go for robo, how is your robo tech any farther ahead than theirs? And if you go robo at the same time, stargate + robo is going to lose to robo + a larger ground army. And if your argument is "he can't go robo because I have so much air," you can't invest into robo AND stargate efficiently. So if you take the time to go robo, then shouldn't your opponent have time to regain the air advantage? Going gateway only would be suicide unless you're doing a timing. Your opponent has access to as much gas as you unless you do some inane amounts of damage, so if you're going robo + stargate, he could go 2 stargate, or if you go robo, he has stargate, or if you go stargate, he can do anything else. Blah blah blah. Although for what it's worth, I went 1 stargate and gateways vs a couple guys who went like 3 stargate for tons of phoenixes. Like a few people have said, twilight council pressure (in this case, a bunch of chargelots) can straight up kill them sometimes. TL;DR I'm a masters protoss and I disagree with you  Stargate is really powerful, but PvP in HotS is WAY better than it was. | ||
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AstroPegnuin
293 Posts
(Note stopping 3 Gate/4 Gate pressure requires pretty much perfect execution of defense as your trying to squeeze out your tech at early timings thus leaving you more susceptible to early aggression/all ins, however you can stall long enough for DT's in most cases.) | ||
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AstroPegnuin
293 Posts
On February 24 2013 14:40 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Phoenix, tempest, archon and stalker composition crushes void rays. Until people learn to scout and start going Carriers as soon as they see this :D | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
Firstly, you are correct that phoenix beat voidrays (in cost and supply like they used to do in WOL even though voids do 20% more dps vs phoenix compared to WOL, they still lose to phoenix beofre range upgrade slightly, after that they get outranged). But here the interesting dynamic starts: While phoenix beat voidrays (especially in supply now and with 7 range after the +2 range upgrade) massing up phoenix in the later stages of the game is plainly terrible. They are incredible early on and going into the midgame for a number of reasons, but once you get past this stage the opponent will get archons and once he has a certain number in his army your phoenix get trashed hard if you try to use them in the big battle. Secondly, he can keep a few hts in the middle of his army (protected by archons) and feedback them before they even do anything. The normal disadvantages still apply (air units take longer to remake and usually have lower upgrades than ground until super lategame) but this means voidrays are superiors in those battles. Now carriers actually slightly win vs voidrays (yes even with charge, due to them shooting earlier and charge wearing of after 20sec) in equal supply, but they take so much longer to get out and can get countered easily by tempests which do awsome vs them. Voids do much better now than before (+20% vs archons compared to WOL) but they still get countered by chargelot-archon timings, they are still slightly too strong though (too easy to hold blink pushes now). In the endgame tempests actually beat everything due to having the exact same supply as voids. So a ton of voids with support to not dying into mass tempests is the ultimate HOTS pvp army. That's kinda boring. But if it wasn't for mass tempests in super lategame it would be actually way better than mass colossus in WOL. In midgame it's way more dynamic now. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
A mirror matchup virtually always resolves to just a few tactics being viable and mirror compositions being used agianst eachother. Be that colossi or phoenix+gateway armies it doesn't matter that much.. It should be interesting by there being many transition points and the compositions itself being interesting to use which is just not the case in PvP.. Stargate play somewhat matching twilight tech and robo tech a bit more plus DT getting better is good. The opening scenario's are even more wide now but the matchup just feels boring.. I miss something like reavers or siege tanks that are really interesting in it's usage and positioning itself.. Also I feel that certain techs vs techs just lead to a lock-in and boring arms race too much. For example take stargate vs stargate which is quite common now. Obviously this just results in phoenix vs phoenix wars with both players having a big incentive to stay in this war. If you stop the phoenix massing for example and the opponent just makes a few more his phoenix will demolish yours, 10 phoenix vs 7 phoenix for example will tend to leave one player with 5ish and the other with zero so dropping out of the race sucks immensely. Seeing as phoenix take up the entire gas production of 1 base a stargate vs stargate matchup tends to be the most boring ever.. It's just 1-a zealot-phoenix armies into eachother with little to no tactics whatsoever... P should have gotten an AoE AA unit, ground or air based. In that case there would be a tipping point where you could react by adding this unit in eventually stopping the air fight etc.. Ideally you would have vastly different compositions being roughly equal so you would get actual differences in styles and less 'real' mirrors more often. Perhaps with a little nudging colo + stalker vs gateway + air can actually be just so tight that you see this more often and both use different styles. | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
Back to pvp the only reason you don't see straight up only mass air battles is dts being available so quickly now. Robo is next to useless in my eyes now (until later to get observers ofc). The whole matchup is more dynamic but in the early game it's a bit of a blindcounter thing going on here. If you open stargate and don't get an oracle straight that stays in your base until you know for sure no dts are coming you die to dts which are common now, if you open like this and your opponent went stargate straight into phoenix (taking the dt gamble) he is way ahead, same if you went for robo. And blink is not really that good anymore. I have no trouble ever holding one base blink pushes with voids + mothership core. You don't need to transition at the right time or hold the ramp till a certain point or whatsoever. You just make your buildings around your nexus and then wait for him to get into range for the canon ability while producing voids + 3 gateways worth of units. | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
That right now blink and robotics play is left quite behind. in WOL, i played random and my best matchups were always the mirrors. i liked to open 3g, but like balls fast WG and go pressure into blinks + obs, but it simply doesn't work anymore becuase of the MSC and as they hold your attack with this they counter your economy with 4 or 5 phoenix and the game is over. or oracles, should they send the first phoenix in and see no stargate. i feel like my wins in this mirror matchup are now coming down to whether or not i build a sentry before my SG, or he if does... | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3517 Posts
However once you get into the game, the game is a lot more dynamic in unit composition. Voidray actually having a counter. Also Voids are slow and I'm sure a lot of baserace opportunities are there, either from Oracle/DT/BlinkStalker. | ||
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BigPanda
Sweden7 Posts
Thanks for sharing this, my PvP is really bad and this was indeed something to ponder about and work on. | ||
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baba1
Canada355 Posts
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Jukez
United States51 Posts
Double probe scout, right when you have enough for your warpgate you steal both gasses. Then he's forced to make zealots marching across the map while you make zealots and have gas to make a mother ship core. What do you guys think? | ||
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
On February 28 2013 03:38 Jukez wrote: ****PERFECT COUNTER**** Double probe scout, right when you have enough for your warpgate you steal both gasses. Then he's forced to make zealots marching across the map while you make zealots and have gas to make a mother ship core. What do you guys think? GSL winning strat for sure. And on the slight chance you were being serious... that's not going to happen if someone just pays attention to the game and puts a probe next to their gas geyser. Even if you managed to do it, they can just chrono out 2 zealots and kill the assims. | ||
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Jukez
United States51 Posts
On February 28 2013 04:01 Erik.TheRed wrote: GSL winning strat for sure. And on the slight chance you were being serious... that's not going to happen if someone just pays attention to the game and puts a probe next to their gas geyser. Even if you managed to do it, they can just chrono out 2 zealots and kill the assims. Actually it could work. If you send two probes, they wouldn't scout it if they were doing a 13 gate late scout. they will be behind on gas and stalkers so a quick oracle could finish the job. | ||
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Luzian
Switzerland26 Posts
I can only speak for high master / low GM PvP but I almost never lose vs an air player, even when I mess up in the early game and start with a disadvantage. Yes, I'm a good old boring robo player. =P + Show Spoiler [My Playstyle] + Most of the time I go for 1 gate / 1gate1robo FEs with really fast MSCs depending on whether I scout pressure. When the other P goes for 2gate without probe scout I rush to DTs, when he moves out with more than 1 stalker, I chrono an Immortal asap, vs DT openers it's basically freewin, when I see a stargate unit and I have confirmed that it isn't a hallucination, I stop Immortal production, go for 4 gates and as soon as I know that my opponent expands I add a Twilight Council as well, chronoing blink and adding 1 or 2 more gates going into pressure... sometimes I win right there except my opponent goes for charge, delays my pressure or my Blink is just too late and he has too many units already (at least 3 VRs with enough Zealot and Sentry support) Then I just throw down a 3rd, 2 Forges and Templar Archives and basically try to overwhelm my opponent which is quite easy on almost any map My most losses are from when I just make severe gameplay mistakes: not scouting proxy gates in my main, doing a micro mistake in the early game especially vs the tough to defend 3gate, not scouting and dealing with colossi tech in time, messing up an engagement and the likes ;-D From what I've observed is that 3gate pressure with MSC into Stargate and 1 Oracle is probably one of the strongest builds: it punishes greedy play, allows contain expands forcing an allin and the Oracle makes it DT proof and has the potential to kill a lot of workers and could even allow you to break into the main. But in the end PvP is still the most fragile MU (was already shown a few times with statistics but also for a decent amount of Ps PvP is the MU closest to 50% winrate) with countless different openers that all have slight to severe advantages and disadvantages to each other and each map favors different builds (for example on Cloud Kingdom you can go 1gate FE into 2gate pressure Robo, crazy strong opener stolen from my game vs MVPTails but you can only defend certain stuff on that single map) TL;DR: airtoss is not as strong as many claim and HotS PvP has not been figured out, being even more fragile than in WoL, and control + decision making are the main thing that prevent it from being a complete coinflip due to the crazy amount of openers that counter each other EDIT: + Show Spoiler [@Jukez:] + to even have the chance of stealing both gasses you have to send the 2 probes right after Pylon (since you usually build first Assimilator @14 supply), losing 20% of your mining and therefore setting your macro severely behind, causing you to lose right away to any proxy shenanigans + FFEs and you won't be able to defend pressure / punish a FE if you go for a fast Oracle followup there are reasons why almost noone goes for gas stealing | ||
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