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Summarized below is a detailed description of the Protoss vs Protoss metagame along with the optimal way to abuse it. The build and theory may not seem apparently obvious, especially in the volatility of a new game and the crazy meta that ensues, but with significant changes to the voidray, coupled with detection from the stargate, this is the case. In order to make a point I will be making certain generalizations, and am fully aware that this game is not a game of rock/paper/scissors game, but a game where scissors can defeat rock through good fundamentals. For consistency I will also be making the assumption of equivalent skill/level of play when addressing build order. PvP: Wings of Liberty Theory + Show Spoiler +PvP as we kno it from wings of liberty (WoL), exclusively centred around the use of colossus with a slight emphasis on Archon/Immortal with Zealots as buffer. As such the match-up looked as, follows: Phoenix openings > Robo openings> Twilight openings > phoenix openings, where > indicates a slight advantage moving into the midgame. Simply put these advantages were built on the number of options, or lack thereof, that one opening has vs another which ultimately leads to a stronger/faster endgame composition that all three openings would eventually funnel into, Colossus. PvP: Heart of the Swarm Theory + Show Spoiler +The biggest change moving from WoL to HotS, is the redesign of the Voidray. As such the end game hierarchy of compositions now looks like: (Loosely speaking) VoidRay>> Colossus>> Gateway, where >> indicates a significant advantage when in direct engagement. The VoidRay is now king, with everything else under it. However, unlike its predecessor the colossus, the counter to VoidRay’s aren't more VoidRays, but mass phoenix or mass stalker with storm, with the latter not trading very well given a correct split and an equivalent army value from the Void Ray player. The main difference between the VoidRay and Colossus composition from WoL, is that the counter to Colossus was more Colossus, a ground unit and therefore easily manipulated through positional play and a variation of unit interaction. In contrast, the counter to VoidRay is the phoenix, a unit that can only be countered through more phoenix. (I understand stalkers can kill phoenix but it is irrelevant as I will show later.) The Build + Show Spoiler +The build supply will vary with probe stacking etc. Try to build it as smoothly as possible with probes being the priority on 1 base. Note I have decided to omit the mothershipcore from the build until 2 base. Although the mothershipcore has versatility and a place in gateway openings, it does not serve an actual purpose within stargate openings and actually leave you vulnerable to certain openings such as 3 gate pressure or 4 gate dt. 9 Pylon Chrono probes 3 times in a row 13 Gateway, scout with probe. 15 gas 16 Pylon 18ish Cybernetics core (place it when you can afford it) 19 Gas 20ish zealot 21/22/23 Pylon#3 before Cybercore finishes @Cybercore 100% complete: start and Chrono warptech @100 gas: queue up Sentry and chronoboost gateway. @150 gas: build Stargate @ next 100 gas 2nd sentry *Constant probe production until 20 on minerals and 3 on each gas* *Add gates 2 and 3 as you can afford them without cutting probes after stargate* *When sg is done chrono out 4 phoenix in a row* *If no aggression is done scout with a halu phoenix/if there is aggression scout with real phoenix for dts and tech (if dts make oracle and 3 phoenix and out-produce him in army and take an expo with a robo)* *When expanding the key is to watch his gas timings, gas deposit in units and tech choices. If you do not see any tech stay on phoenix gateway with msc. If you see tech go into immortal 1 forge gateway composition with 8-10 phoenix. Go into colo production as soon as you know you're not being 2 base pushed. The exception is if you scout a colossus bay/2 stargate transition, in which case go up to 2 stargate voidray/phoenix with a splash of immortals* *Good practice is to leave 2 zealots on hold position at your ramp in case you miss a dt shrine* This build allows for the ability to attain a significant number of phoenixes relatively quickly along with the safety-net of being able to allocate chrono differently depending on what you scout. The above build is optimal if playing vs mirror Stargate openings, dt openings,robo openings and non aggressive twilight openings (not 3 gate pressure before teching twilight) Variations of this opening due to scouting Against 3 Gate Pressure/dBling Style Currently it’s popular for your opponent to go 3 gate pressure/3 stalker pressure with mothership core into some sort of tech. Bling likes to go 3 gate 3 stalker rush with MSC into about 6-9 stalker pressure depending on what he scouts. If you scout this or feel unsafe, you can modify the build above by making the second sentry before stargate and 2x chrono your cyber core, even adding the gates before stargate. Just forcefield the units out followed by your first warp-ins and you will be fine. It’s the same concept of holding 3 gate pressure in WoL with the exception you have to stand further back from the edge due to msc. Don't worry about the risk of losing the sentries to the msc, because with 2 chrono on the cybercore, warpgate will be finishing up, and he cannot risk over extending too far in with a slow unit like the msc(if he does snipe it with your first warp-in). The biggest thing when facing pressure is to Against 3 Gate Contain Expo Three gate contain into expo is probably the best option your opponent can do vs this build. Against the majority of 3 gate tech variations you will have more than enough army value to just pick up his units and fight your way out into your natural with 3 gate phoenix. However there will be times where it is necessary to hold your ramp leading to a contain expo by him. In this spot the best play is to counter his main with phoenix. It usually forces a nexus cannon and a warp-in of 3 stalkers. At this point he has the choice of coming back home with his contain or sitting in front of your ramp. If he chooses the latter, simply sit your 5-6 phoenix at his natural and deny the benefits of his expansion as long as possible. Due to a significant portion of his army being at your natural, he can't effectively deal with your phoenixes without you moving around his army and into the main sniping probes. Your play vs a contain should be to get out colossus to break the contain and take an expo. Do not worry about the time difference between expanding, as your tech is superiorly progressed, and the amount of resources gained by your opponent by the expo lead does not offset the tech lead you have. Against Blink OpeningsJust open the standard way. Blink research time has been increased such that it will frequently be the follow up of 3 gate or 3 stalker rush openings, regardless the response is the same. Go up to 4 phoenix and have constant unit production out of 3 gates. It will be an easy hold. Against Phoenix Mirror/Greedy Openings If you can identify early on that your opponent is playing a non aggressive style you can be more liberal in your risk taking. There are some builds that are 1 gate 1 stargate expo if they feel a potential phoenix mirror. I am not going to post a recommendation as it is very game by game dependant. In general try reach saturation faster and save more chrono for phoenix production. Why this Build is King + Show Spoiler +Due to the VoidRay being the most potent unit in a final army composition, all that matters is the potential to create them, instead of actually producing them. The most optimal way to make this happen is to mass the counter to VoidRays(phoenix), thus monopolizing the ability to produce them. In other words if you control the rights to make Voidrays you alone have the ability to produce colossus, thus forcing your opponent into an inferior tech choice. In WoL Blink players could still take solace in the fact that they had more invested resources in an endgame tech path, coupled with minimal damage from phoenix due to blink openings, thus leading to a powerful mid/late game and a strong transition into colossus. However in HotS it is important to note that due to the progression of Protoss tech, it is not how much damage the phoenixes can do but merely the fact that one player has them. The implication is that MSC and blink provide good defensive capabilities but the resulting influx of resources cannot be allocated in an effective manner. To exemplify this point let’s say player A opens SG and Player B opens non SG. If B goes Colossus, A can go mass VR, If B goes mass gateway, A can go colossus with phoenix, leading to the problems B had with colossus from wings of liberty. If both A and B go stargate it turns into a very fragile game where neither player has an incentive to move away from Phoenix production, and as such will turn into a mass phoenix vs phoenix with lots of ground units, where one single engagement determines that game. Conclusion + Show Spoiler +Let me start by saying that although it is very favoured for the player opening phoenix, games will still be won with other openings and other tech choices, since Starcraft is not always about advantages. For those of you who are wondering why I have not mentioned the oracle, it is because it is always better to allocate the gas to phoenix. The times when oracles come in handy are when you need detection or want to do a counter swing vs a very aggressive 1 base protoss.
Replays http://www.2shared.com/file/Yp0RWwTR/vs_blink_expand.html
I will add more replays later when I get the chance.
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Germany25649 Posts
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I think you are thinking too hard in regards to one player reacting to the other. The game is much more dynamic than "A opens SG and Player B opens non SG. If B goes Colossus, A can go mass VR, If B goes mass gateway, A can go colossus with phoenix, leading to the problems B had with colossus from wings of liberty"
there was already an issue in wings of liberty where if one player opened robo and the other player didnt open robo, then the robo player has a tech advantage going into the late game. However it was up to the non-robo player to make use of his early-mid game tech to make something happen and gain the upper hand by out playing his opp. which would allow him to either win the game out right or gain an advantage large enough that it allows him to tech switch into robo and catchup/out produce his opp. who had already dedicated himself to that tech.
Just like in wings of liberty, different maps will favor different tech paths (on cloud kingdom a player who opens robo into colossus or an expand was at a disadvantage to someone who goes for a blink observer build. but on daybreak, the robo expand had an advantage over blink obs once the robo player had sufficient units to tackle blink head on.)
i could go into detail regarding certain situations but i wont. the TLDR is basically that while yes void rays are powerful, they are not the best unit in pvp. Mass void rays can be countered, and as for your statement regarding the stargate player has an automatic advantage, I feel this is only true if both players sit on their hands and do nothing. PvP has become a little more dynamic than, Ok neither of us are going all-in so lets just sit and max on colossus with mothership. We should be seeing alot more mid game engagements
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I collected many a freewin from this kind of Stargate play using 3Gate MsC pressure with fast Twilight. This "King BO" imo is not capable of holding the early pressure without dooming you to die a little later.
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So you are basically saying "Now in HotS, instead of countering one unit with that exact unit and the larger number wins (like WoL) to counter one unit, you have to use DIFFERENT units and multiple different combinations can actually work against it"..
uhh.. Doesnt that mean HotS FIXED PvP??
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On February 09 2013 06:04 rEalGuapo wrote: I collected many a freewin from this kind of Stargate play using 3Gate MsC pressure with fast Twilight. This "King BO" imo is not capable of holding the early pressure without dooming you to die a little later.
ya....I pretty much got mangled by 3 gate msc pressure with fast twilight when using some similar to the "King BO"
I dont think its even close to developed yet to establish a decent analysis of the matchup
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I agree that HotS PvP is radically different because of the stargate. I've been doing a 3 stalker opening, and when the opponent goes stargate their builds are absurdly greedy, they are building their SG before building a sentry, and I simply walk into their base killing their zealot/stalker, forcing them to pull probes while I expand behind it. In WoL, the game would virtually be over. But repeatedly the Protoss comes back because unless I too go stargate behind it their army always seems to beat mine, even if I go immediately into blink stalkers. I don't think this is bad but it just shows the matchup is so far from being figured out and it's way too early to post things as dramatic as the title of this thread.
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I've been using a 2 gate expand that I haven't had anyone break yet. I really need to work on developing a followup though.
A 4 gate would kill it though I'm pretty sure.
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What league are you in? This is certainly not a win-all build order.
"However there will be times where it is necessary to hold your ramp leading to a contain expo by him. ... Your play vs a contain should be to get out colossus to break the contain and take an expo. Do not worry about the time difference between expanding, as your tech is superiorly progressed, and the amount of resources gained by your opponent by the expo lead does not offset the tech lead you have."
Um... yes it does. If he's able to get a 3gate pressure contain, expand to his natural, and hold it until you have colossus, then you have to all-in. Expanding in that situation is just stupid. You need to go kill him. With a Stargate opening, you need to be very aggressive early. If you wait for a bunch of phoenix, either you'll lose to DTs or he'll expand well before you, photon overcharge one base and put 4 Stalkers at the other and you'll fall behind on probes.
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On February 09 2013 06:03 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
i could go into detail regarding certain situations but i wont. the TLDR is basically that while yes void rays are powerful, they are not the best unit in pvp. Mass void rays can be countered, and as for your statement regarding the stargate player has an automatic advantage, I feel this is only true if both players sit on their hands and do nothing I never said mass voidrays can’t be countered. What I said was having the ability to go voidray means the other person can’t go robo, and with you already going phoenix, he is forced to play a gateway heavy game. It should be obvious the stargate player has a major tech advantage. I agree on certain maps, that phoenix is less potent then other openings
On February 09 2013 06:05 Kaden wrote: So you are basically saying "Now in HotS, instead of countering one unit with that exact unit and the larger number wins (like WoL) to counter one unit, you have to use DIFFERENT units and multiple different combinations can actually work against it"..
uhh.. Doesnt that mean HotS FIXED PvP?? .
No. try actually reading what I posted. What I said was the counter is phoenix vs phoenix which is a lot worse then colo vs colo was, with everyother “different” unit interaction being at a disadvantage.
On February 09 2013 06:19 HeavenResign wrote: I agree that HotS PvP is radically different because of the stargate. I've been doing a 3 stalker opening, and when the opponent goes stargate their builds are absurdly greedy, they are building their SG before building a sentry, and I simply walk into their base killing their zealot/stalker, forcing them to pull probes while I expand behind it. In WoL, the game would virtually be over. But repeatedly the Protoss comes back because unless I too go stargate behind it their army always seems to beat mine, even if I go immediately into blink stalkers. I don't think this is bad but it just shows the matchup is so far from being figured out and it's way too early to post things as dramatic as the title of this thread.
And @ superyo / guapo. If you had actually read what I posted you would realize you can’t walk up my ramp… Just because you play greedy openings on ladder doesn’t mean all stargate openings are the same.
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good post.
From the pvp I played I definetely agree that in most cases the phoenix player has the advantage.
Voidray gate composition beats gateway and phoenix beats voidray. To beat colo you have to go 2SG though I think or go voidray colo gateway.
Anyways seems like a good BO and with 2 sentries the only danger to you are blink+msc and DT's.
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I don't think this is worse than WoL though, WoL pvp was really SO BAD.
I prefer the phoenix to the colossus
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On February 09 2013 07:26 aYtDuSteR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:05 Kaden wrote: So you are basically saying "Now in HotS, instead of countering one unit with that exact unit and the larger number wins (like WoL) to counter one unit, you have to use DIFFERENT units and multiple different combinations can actually work against it"..
uhh.. Doesnt that mean HotS FIXED PvP?? . No. try actually reading what I posted. What I said was the counter is phoenix vs phoenix which is a lot worse then colo vs colo was, with everyother “different” unit interaction being at a disadvantage. That is very wrong, as you forget that a feedback transition is able to counter the masses of phoenix. I agree that the phoenix is the very strong, but the fact that it has a direct counter (HT and archons) means it can't be the best thing to do.
Basically you say stalkers with storm is irrelevant versus void rays, I disagree here since even with good split you will still be able to hit a decent amount of void rays (you can't oversplit them or it won't be effective), and also you can use attack and blink back, to force the cooldown. Void rays which are not charged will lose to stalkers with some storm support. And even if you do lose the battle versus the void rays, you will be able to reinforce much faster due to the warpgate mechanic. Overall I think that gateway > air >> robo >> gateway.
Lastly there is one composition which is near impossible if not truly impossible to beat, and that is the mass carriers. This is because per supply the carrier is the most efficient (the void ray which is the counter in WoL has 4 supply now, which makes it cost efficient, but not supply efficient), and that the carriers are so big they don't care one bit for storms. The only counter to the carrier is the tempest, which dies to almost anything else. This is OK since the carrier takes 2 minutes to build, so if you allowed someone to get maxed on carriers you deserve to lose.
As you see HotS does not break PvP but fixes it, there is not one path which is the best and everything has a counter. While the phoenix is a great option for the early game, robo blink openings are still good and immortal expand is possible with smart use of the msc. I think that it will take a very long time till this matchup gets figured out, especially since it got near figured out in the end of WoL (with positioning, usage of immortals and drops, I think it got really interesting and even the colossus wars have their spark since its not true anymore that the one with more colossi wins, its the one with the better composition and concave).
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You actually can gain a lot of advantage from microing phoenix vs phoenix though. It's weird too because this is not the case in muta vs muta. But in Phoenix vs phoenix there's generally only up to around 5 or 7 phoenix firing at the same time, which is microable. Furthermore, you only ever have around that 5-7 firing because the battle happens while moving. You're never gonna have phoneix sitting in one place firing at other phoenix sitting in one place because there is no disadvantage to moving. Where you move the phoenixes and how you move them is very important. It's WAY more fun than colossi vs colossi.
In other news, this thread writes about phoenix vs phoenix but a quick ctrl + f of "range", "upgrade", "anion" and "pulse" all turn up ZERO results. (well, except now that I've mentioned them).
That upgrade is KEY in stargate vs stargate in HoTS. It's the ZvZ zergling speed of stargate vs stargate. If you get that upgrade significantly before your opponent in a phoenix vs phoenix situation you will gain a TREMENDOUS advantage and likely win the game or make a decent comeback in it. Plus, then you can transition into carriers, which as the above poster writes, will often win games.
Just some food for thought.
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Im convinced that stargate is the only way to open, and the composition you build is dependent on scouting where all openings are inferior to SG besides SG itself. I thinks its honestly worse then Wol was with 4gate only.
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Just by looking at the match historys of the top 10 protoss players on the HotS ladder you can see that the most popular opening, as well as the one that leads to the win, is stargate by a large margin.
With oracle having detection right out of the stargate it has 60 second of detection, so dt openings are quite god awful and will die to a 3 gate + VR all in/contain.
blink all ins are awful as well since the mothership core photon overcharge will buy enough time to get out a few void rays and stalkers of your own, so you will be able to push that back no problem and you're already ahead in the void ray count.
Robo openings are obviously just bad vs SG openings so....
So I'm guessing until theres a void change that all pro games will just be phoenix vs. phoenix for a very long time. Imo, the Voids should require an upgrade to make charge an activation ability, the duration/cooldown should also be changed so that it requires more skill to use as well as allows for opponents to bait charges.
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It straight up loses to a greedier SG build though, and those are infuriating; additionally, MsC pokes are pretty difficult to hold and 1 Gate Blink is super tough to hold considering you have no MsC for a very long time [IIRC, you won't have enough until Phoenix 2/3 are in production, maybe even later].
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On February 09 2013 09:23 moskonia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 07:26 aYtDuSteR wrote:On February 09 2013 06:05 Kaden wrote: So you are basically saying "Now in HotS, instead of countering one unit with that exact unit and the larger number wins (like WoL) to counter one unit, you have to use DIFFERENT units and multiple different combinations can actually work against it"..
uhh.. Doesnt that mean HotS FIXED PvP?? . No. try actually reading what I posted. What I said was the counter is phoenix vs phoenix which is a lot worse then colo vs colo was, with everyother “different” unit interaction being at a disadvantage. That is very wrong, as you forget that a feedback transition is able to counter the masses of phoenix. I agree that the phoenix is the very strong, but the fact that it has a direct counter (HT and archons) means it can't be the best thing to do. Basically you say stalkers with storm is irrelevant versus void rays, I disagree here since even with good split you will still be able to hit a decent amount of void rays (you can't oversplit them or it won't be effective), and also you can use attack and blink back, to force the cooldown. Void rays which are not charged will lose to stalkers with some storm support. And even if you do lose the battle versus the void rays, you will be able to reinforce much faster due to the warpgate mechanic. Overall I think that gateway > air >> robo >> gateway. Lastly there is one composition which is near impossible if not truly impossible to beat, and that is the mass carriers. This is because per supply the carrier is the most efficient (the void ray which is the counter in WoL has 4 supply now, which makes it cost efficient, but not supply efficient), and that the carriers are so big they don't care one bit for storms. The only counter to the carrier is the tempest, which dies to almost anything else. This is OK since the carrier takes 2 minutes to build, so if you allowed someone to get maxed on carriers you deserve to lose. As you see HotS does not break PvP but fixes it, there is not one path which is the best and everything has a counter. While the phoenix is a great option for the early game, robo blink openings are still good and immortal expand is possible with smart use of the msc. I think that it will take a very long time till this matchup gets figured out, especially since it got near figured out in the end of WoL (with positioning, usage of immortals and drops, I think it got really interesting and even the colossus wars have their spark since its not true anymore that the one with more colossi wins, its the one with the better composition and concave).
you have absolutely no idea what I'm trying to say. Against gateway comp you go colossus and it plays out exactly like wol.
To they guy who said greedy blink opening will be hard to stop. You have more army value opening phoenix then he does going blink.
Greedier stargate builds require changing the build slightly as mentioned in the op. Hence why you scout. You can make this build as greedy as you want.
I did not go into depth on phoenix vs phoenix because I thought the natural tech progression was implied.The point is that stargate vs stargate is a lot more volatile then wol was. If you're down phoenix you have no map presence and run the risk of losing the game due to 1 missmicro on the field.
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On February 09 2013 10:55 jcroisdale wrote: Im convinced that stargate is the only way to open, and the composition you build is dependent on scouting where all openings are inferior to SG besides SG itself. I thinks its honestly worse then Wol was with 4gate only.
Bingo. I hate HOTS PvP more than anything. Flying units don't have to deal with terrain and have limited micro potential compared to ground units. They are just A-move.
Anyway, I fully agree with the OP in theory. However, Colossus/VoidRay/Phoenix could be countered by Tempest/Stalker/Archon/HT I suppose (assuming the Tempest still does extra damage vs Colossus, which I am not sure, it is considered a massive air unit to Corrupters, is the Colossus a massive air unit to Tempests?), and most of those are Gateway units. In practice I haven't played enough PvP macro games to know if that would work.
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On February 09 2013 07:26 aYtDuSteR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:03 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
i could go into detail regarding certain situations but i wont. the TLDR is basically that while yes void rays are powerful, they are not the best unit in pvp. Mass void rays can be countered, and as for your statement regarding the stargate player has an automatic advantage, I feel this is only true if both players sit on their hands and do nothing I never said mass voidrays can’t be countered. What I said was having the ability to go voidray means the other person can’t go robo, and with you already going phoenix, he is forced to play a gateway heavy game. It should be obvious the stargate player has a major tech advantage. I agree on certain maps, that phoenix is less potent then other openings
But unless you're opponent is committing to mass air you can still go robo. I usually will go heavy blink stalker with 2-3 colossus if they go for an air-ground comp. my point is you have to keep scouting your opponent and tailor your composition accordingly.
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