EPTWidow mine becomes weak as skill increases? - Page 3
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TheSwagger
United States92 Posts
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Cababel
United States31 Posts
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
On February 09 2013 03:58 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: That's why blizzard should put hold-fire on the WM. It's stupid how how free units can activate them :[ I'd gladly give up on WM working on workers if blizzard gives terrans the possibility to hold fire. Yeah, dont get why we don't how it like that..... | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 09 2013 04:01 Zelniq wrote: Why is it that everyone just thinks of using widow mines as isolated units, away from your army? The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg. Watch the recent day9 dailies on it, xigua vs beastyQT This. Also, if your worried about them baiting the Widow mine, ever think of using them like a normal combat unit and burrowing them as the fight happens? Or better yet, doing some burrow micro similar to Swarm Hosts? | ||
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uh-oh
Hong Kong135 Posts
In higher levels widow mines serve the purpose of making sure the enemy cant blindly walk pass somewhere and must slow down(sending in detection/triggering mines one by one), which is a very powerful way of saying 'I want to do damage here and now and you cant do a thing about it, by the time you get here I already did everything I wanted', this is the strength of mines in higher levels, not producing spectacular firework shows, but controlling his army's mobility. | ||
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Cloudshade
91 Posts
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On February 09 2013 06:29 FlyingBeer wrote: As others have mentioned, Zerg can't trigger the mines with just one zergling without it dying to cover fire before reaching the mine. My guess is, the player will have to send a minimum of 5 lings to trigger one mine, adding on 2 or 3 for each additional mine. This means mines are, at minimum, trading cost-effectively in mid-game. If Zerg slips up even once, then they can easily lose 1500 minerals/gas worth of units. It's absolutely ridiculous. Terran shouldn't have a unit that counters every single pre-Hive unit Zerg has. The recent day9 dailies are quite illustrative. In the first game, I have no idea how the Zerg player was supposed to keep from losing his third. He only stayed competitive because of the gold base in the center is imbalanced towards Zerg. In the second game, the Zerg player does a ton of damage with lings, killing off all the SCVs at the player's natural, then gets an even bigger advantage with mutas that catch Beastly completely off-guard. Day[9] never showed the worker counts, but I'm guessing Beastly was at least 15 workers behind of where he needed to be. At the pro level, that should be an almost insurmountable loss especially since Star Station has that wide open third that's very favorable to the Zerg. Despite this, Beastly is able to harass with four fully loaded medivacs while holding off ultra/ling attacks with just mines and a few marauders. I don't know why avilo keeps complaining about late game supply issues. He can just destroy the mines and switch to something else if he has to. Does the uselessness of banshees, hellions, roaches, banelings, mutas, and phoenixes in the late game prevent players from using them in the mid game? They have more options outside lings. Broodlings and swarm host locusts can easily draw mines fire away from the main army. Note that mines shut down 1 wave, which gives a sh or broodlord a free 20 seconds or so to attack. Broodlords are probably better options since they can still do damage even if broodlings are dead with it's initial impact. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 09 2013 23:37 Novacute wrote: They have more options outside lings. Broodlings and swarm host locusts can easily draw mines fire away from the main army. Note that mines shut down 1 wave, which gives a sh or broodlord a free 20 seconds or so to attack. Broodlords are probably better options since they can still do damage even if broodlings are dead with it's initial impact. So your comparing a unit that is available less than 5 minutes in a game to possibly the latest tier unit in the game? lol Even SH are much later tier. This is besides the point that every unit has its counters, and Mines have many uses other than those listed. Also people keep ignoring the fact that Widows could be microed between shots as well, it's much smarter to actually burrow the mines as a fights starting so that the fodder doesn't trigger them, and through micro you can choose their targets at well. At the pro level Widows will be used far, far differently from how you see typical people using them now. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
A single shot can kill up to 30+ Zerglings and or Banelings. That's a huge, huge AoE- especially for a ranged unit. Combined with MMM to make sure that they don't waste any shots on things like Locusts, individual Ling/Bane/Roach units trying to detonate one, or otherwise, you're almost set. The last piece of the puzzle against Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches is to spread your Widow Mines out a ton. Ideally you wouldn't have any two Widow Mines in the same spot; they would all be spread out over an area, and you would have 10+ of them to maximize the chances you have of getting lots and lots of Zergling/Baneling kills, letting your MMM clean up. This also stops mass Infestor or Vipers from beating it; since maps tend to be so big nowadays, you have lots and lots of room to spread out and not get more than half your army hit by a couple of Fungals or Blinding Clouds. Ultras don't work very well because the WM's huge AoE kills all of the supporting Zerglings while the MMM kites the Ultralisks to hell and back, barely taking any damage and doing tons. WM's also do quite a lot of damage to Ultralisks; 375 for the same supply, plus 40 splash damage to nearby units is nothing to scoff at, although it makes it a tad difficult since the WM's don't outright kill the Ultralisks and have the potential to hit Zerglings with their main attack instead of the Ultralisks. Broodlords are countered pretty darn hard by the new Raven, as well as Bio/WM drops- you have to use more than just Zerglings to clean up drops, now, otherwise you lose tons and tons of Zerglings without killing a ton of Bio. Mutalisk/Zergling/Baneling against Marines and Widow Mines, which one-shot the Mutas, with no units that out range the Widow Mines or can get past the MMM to detonate some of them. Swarm hosts I actually don't have a lot of experience watching or playing against, so I'm not sure about them. I don't like using Overlords because you can spread your Widow Mines to the point where your Marines will clean up the Overlords before they can get to the Widow Mines behind the front line of Bio/Mine. Also, you can just unburrow for the moment and wait for the enemy army to actually attack. It does only take one second to burrow. Of course, Roach/Hydra is a lot better vs Bio/Widow Mine, and you need Tanks for that. Luckily, Siege Mode is automatically researched now, so you just swap a Reactored Factory with a Tech Labbed Barracks and you're good to go. Even with all this I don't think the Widow Mine needs a huge nerf, though. I just think that killing 30+ Zerglings and/or Banelings is total overkill, hence a relatively small nerf to the AoE of it would be appropriate. | ||
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tshi
United States2495 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On February 10 2013 01:36 tshi wrote: Well, it is very useful when doing a drop against anything except a lot of Roach/Hydra. It really forces the Zerg to be careful when dealing with your drop since if he isn't he loses dozens of Zerglings.I think it would be nice if it had a manual-detonation option like the Baneling. It would give it more uses than to be with your main army since it's easy to set it off otherwise. When it's in your main army, it'll defend them really well -- too bad you can't target it, either. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
But having mines to protect flanks of your army is still very good, I think. Wait for the truly good players to use them. I'm sure we'll see some sick stuff. | ||
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Isualin
Germany1903 Posts
On February 10 2013 00:37 Fencar wrote: Honestly, I think Widow Mines are OP against Zerglings and Banelings. A single shot can kill up to 30+ Zerglings and or Banelings. i don't have access to beta so i can't test. is this true if you a-move your lings into a mine? 30 seemed a lot | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On February 10 2013 01:36 tshi wrote: Once the mine activates you can set its target. I think it would be nice if it had a manual-detonation option like the Baneling. It would give it more uses than to be with your main army since it's easy to set it off otherwise. When it's in your main army, it'll defend them really well -- too bad you can't target it, either. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On February 10 2013 01:44 Isualin wrote: i don't have access to beta so i can't test. is this true if you a-move your lings into a mine? 30 seemed a lot It's been done several times. Here's a link to a game: FF to 21:30. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On February 09 2013 02:43 MockHamill wrote: A few weeks ago I would go widow mine/air and have a 70% win rate vs Zerg. Zerg players tried to go for BroodLords/Corruptor or Ultras and widow mines + viking/bansehee/raven would work great against both. Then lately every player seems to have learned how to bait widow mines with a few units then go in with their whole army and wipe out the widow mines field after they have fired. Is this the future of widow mines? They will be strong against weak players that try to a-move over them without thought, but close to useless in mid game or late game battles against better opponents? If anyone is still successful with widow mines past early game against good opponents please describe in detail how you use them. So as you hit better players you lose more? That means that a certain unit is weak in your eyes. OK | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 10 2013 01:50 Sated wrote: Hellbats pretty much work with a Terran "deathball", even without upgrades they're great vs. Chargelots. Plus how good they are to drop, especially early game. "Left out in the cold"... Yeah... People who say Terrans left in the cold are out of their minds. Between the new units, even stronger harass options, earlier tanks, and Ravens getting an incredible buff, IMO Terran got the best buffs of all the races in the expansion, so much so that I've actually off-raced them a bit (I NEVER played any race but Zerg in WoL past the campaign). | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On February 10 2013 03:45 Spyridon wrote: Yeah... People who say Terrans left in the cold are out of their minds. Between the new units, even stronger harass options, earlier tanks, and Ravens getting an incredible buff, IMO Terran got the best buffs of all the races in the expansion, so much so that I've actually off-raced them a bit (I NEVER played any race but Zerg in WoL past the campaign). I agree with this totally. As a WoL masters in random, Terran was always my achiles heel and i almost always lose against equivalent P/Z and dreaded rolling terran, especially in TvZ. Now, i can't wait to roll Terran whenever i click that play ranked button. Terrans are shaping to be a very well balanced race from start to finish and is my favourite to play with. Those mines and ravens (drools). | ||
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