A few weeks ago I would go widow mine/air and have a 70% win rate vs Zerg. Zerg players tried to go for BroodLords/Corruptor or Ultras and widow mines + viking/bansehee/raven would work great against both.
Then lately every player seems to have learned how to bait widow mines with a few units then go in with their whole army and wipe out the widow mines field after they have fired.
Is this the future of widow mines? They will be strong against weak players that try to a-move over them without thought, but close to useless in mid game or late game battles against better opponents?
If anyone is still successful with widow mines past early game against good opponents please describe in detail how you use them.
I only use widow mines vZ, though that might change with the recent buff v shields, and they work incredibly well if you have your army a little bit ahead of them. Then you pull back to the widow mines when they actually commit to an attack. I think the future is using widow mines to get quicker third bases TvZ and TvP, and then they'll probably be used mid-late game to protect against drops/mutas.
But if you are used to players losing their whole army when they move over big minefield withour detection. Then yes, they are less effective at higher level.
High level players might not loose huge chunks of army like what happens in the lower leagues. However traversing a map covered with widow mines, will always take time, and away from the actions of the opposing player. I feel that's probably the main way widow mines will effect high level play.
On February 09 2013 03:52 Cyanocyst wrote: High level players might not loose huge chunks of army like what happens in the lower leagues. However traversing a map covered with widow mines, will always take time, and away from the actions of the opposing player. I feel that's probably the main way widow mines will effect high level play.
This, the effect is less the damage done and more the map vision and slowing effect on your opponent.
That's why blizzard should put hold-fire on the WM. It's stupid how how free units can activate them :[ I'd gladly give up on WM working on workers if blizzard gives terrans the possibility to hold fire.
Why is it that everyone just thinks of using widow mines as isolated units, away from your army? The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg. Watch the recent day9 dailies on it, xigua vs beastyQT
Beside what Blizzard is trying to sell, Window mines ain't something you use away from your army. Look at them like another version of a Siege tank and use them in synergy with Bio units or mech to get on the fly flanking covering / retreat paths
Seems like it would also be useful against multi-pronged stuff, since it forces detection. They don't cost that much compared to detectors, so even if it seems like they are useless (not doing any actual damage,) they still could have a significant effect.
On February 09 2013 04:04 Jellikit wrote: That's funny Zelniq, I remember blizzard talking about how they wanted to move supply away from the deathball with units such as the widowmine.
Oracles were originally a harasser that didn't kill workers too. Funny how these things work out. When widow mines are kept with the army it's really tough to engage for a Zerg player. I'm more concerned about the mines withe the MMM ball than some dude dropping them in my mineral line.
I cautioned this at the very start of beta. I said and repeatedly tried to give feedback to blizzard, the widow mine is a flawed unit. It's strong early game-ish but the longer the game goes, the shittier and more non-existent the unit becomes when the higher tech units come into play.
In the first months of beta/release, the widow mine will seem OK, but as players figure out the game and games lengthen into longer macro games, there will 100% be a problem and the unit will be shown to have an extremely flawed design - the main thing being that it costs 2 supply making your army weaker the longer the game goes, and the more of them you have in your army.
The mine also seems extremely OP vs low skill level players, but vs masters level to pro level the mine will end up looking worthless.
Already wrote many posts about this, here and on the pro forums, as well as mentioning it in videos. I'm sure others have as well to an extent, but blizzard does not seem to recognize this as an issue.
The other issue is these don't really work well with a Terran deathball, while all of the other new additions and buffs to Protoss and Zerg actually enhance those lategame deathballs.
On February 09 2013 03:52 Cyanocyst wrote: High level players might not loose huge chunks of army like what happens in the lower leagues. However traversing a map covered with widow mines, will always take time, and away from the actions of the opposing player. I feel that's probably the main way widow mines will effect high level play.
This, the effect is less the damage done and more the map vision and slowing effect on your opponent.
Totally agree. Terran finally has a decent way to slow army movements outside of medivac harass in situations where they need to buy the extra minute or so. This is valuable in high level play.
I dont know about this. If anyone is watching QXC vs Leiya he just basically massed out like 30+ widow mine and destroyed her army. He made them look a bit OP
Widow Mines make bio pushes extremely strong. All this stuff people say, how you should trigger it by running a few units ahead is nonsense.
You have your standard bio-tank push from WoL. You siege a base, run forward with the Marines start firing at the Hatchery, run back into tank fire cover when the Zerg army tries to defend with Ling/Bane, right? The answer to this as Zerg, is to set up a flank, split your units to get a good surround, then run in all at the same time, while sniping the tanks with the Mutas. The engagement needs to happen very fast, with no hesitation, or you lose too much before your units can get into melee range, the Marines kite too much, you lose all your banes to tank fire, you lose too many Mutas before they can target fire the tanks, and you lose. Everyone knows how this works.
Now in HotS when Terran adds some Widow Mines, you can't trigger them by running ahead with a few units, because the units die to tank and marine fire before they trigger the mines. The tank/bio protects the mines, and the mines protect the tank/bio. If the Zerg rushes in for the surround, the Widow Mines do a ton of splash damage.
As others have mentioned, Zerg can't trigger the mines with just one zergling without it dying to cover fire before reaching the mine. My guess is, the player will have to send a minimum of 5 lings to trigger one mine, adding on 2 or 3 for each additional mine. This means mines are, at minimum, trading cost-effectively in mid-game. If Zerg slips up even once, then they can easily lose 1500 minerals/gas worth of units. It's absolutely ridiculous. Terran shouldn't have a unit that counters every single pre-Hive unit Zerg has.
The recent day9 dailies are quite illustrative. In the first game, I have no idea how the Zerg player was supposed to keep from losing his third. He only stayed competitive because of the gold base in the center is imbalanced towards Zerg. In the second game, the Zerg player does a ton of damage with lings, killing off all the SCVs at the player's natural, then gets an even bigger advantage with mutas that catch Beastly completely off-guard. Day[9] never showed the worker counts, but I'm guessing Beastly was at least 15 workers behind of where he needed to be. At the pro level, that should be an almost insurmountable loss especially since Star Station has that wide open third that's very favorable to the Zerg. Despite this, Beastly is able to harass with four fully loaded medivacs while holding off ultra/ling attacks with just mines and a few marauders.
I don't know why avilo keeps complaining about late game supply issues. He can just destroy the mines and switch to something else if he has to. Does the uselessness of banshees, hellions, roaches, banelings, mutas, and phoenixes in the late game prevent players from using them in the mid game?
On February 09 2013 06:29 FlyingBeer wrote: As others have mentioned, Zerg can't trigger the mines with just one zergling without it dying to cover fire before reaching the mine. My guess is, the player will have to send a minimum of 5 lings to trigger one mine, adding on 2 or 3 for each additional mine. This means mines are, at minimum, trading cost-effectively in mid-game. If Zerg slips up even once, then they can easily lose 1500 minerals/gas worth of units. It's absolutely ridiculous. Terran shouldn't have a unit that counters every single pre-Hive unit Zerg has.
Can you use Locusts to trigger them?
The recent day9 dailies are quite illustrative. In the first game, I have no idea how the Zerg player was supposed to keep from losing his third. He only stayed competitive because of the gold base in the center is imbalanced towards Zerg. In the second game, the Zerg player does a ton of damage with lings, killing off all the SCVs at the player's natural, then gets an even bigger advantage with mutas that catch Beastly completely off-guard. Day[9] never showed the worker counts, but I'm guessing Beastly was at least 15 workers behind of where he needed to be. At the pro level, that should be an almost insurmountable loss especially since Star Station has that wide open third that's very favorable to the Zerg. Despite this, Beastly is able to harass with four fully loaded medivacs while holding off ultra/ling attacks with just mines and a few marauders.
I don't think a fifteen worker loss should be insurmountable though. If it is in WoL and isn't in HotS, I'd say that's a success. Comebacks from counter-harassment seem like a good thing... You could argue that it didn't require enough skill to justify the comeback though, and that widow mine drops are too good, but having opportunities for a players to make more back and forth games is a good thing in my book.
They just run over marines if they just Amove, but cost efficiency goes down by quite a lot when marines are split. You have to use the widow mines with your main army so that you dont get ran over by micro.
On February 09 2013 06:29 FlyingBeer wrote: As others have mentioned, Zerg can't trigger the mines with just one zergling without it dying to cover fire before reaching the mine. My guess is, the player will have to send a minimum of 5 lings to trigger one mine, adding on 2 or 3 for each additional mine. This means mines are, at minimum, trading cost-effectively in mid-game. If Zerg slips up even once, then they can easily lose 1500 minerals/gas worth of units. It's absolutely ridiculous. Terran shouldn't have a unit that counters every single pre-Hive unit Zerg has.
The recent day9 dailies are quite illustrative. In the first game, I have no idea how the Zerg player was supposed to keep from losing his third. He only stayed competitive because of the gold base in the center is imbalanced towards Zerg. In the second game, the Zerg player does a ton of damage with lings, killing off all the SCVs at the player's natural, then gets an even bigger advantage with mutas that catch Beastly completely off-guard. Day[9] never showed the worker counts, but I'm guessing Beastly was at least 15 workers behind of where he needed to be. At the pro level, that should be an almost insurmountable loss especially since Star Station has that wide open third that's very favorable to the Zerg. Despite this, Beastly is able to harass with four fully loaded medivacs while holding off ultra/ling attacks with just mines and a few marauders.
I don't think a fifteen worker loss should be insurmountable though. If it is in WoL and isn't in HotS, I'd say that's a success. Comebacks from counter-harassment seem like a good thing... You could argue that it didn't require enough skill to justify the comeback though, and that widow mine drops are too good, but having opportunities for a players to make more back and forth games is a good thing in my book.
Yes, they are triggered by Locusts, assuming they get into range. Locusts are actually pretty tough so it happens often against me at least.
Depends how and when you use the mines imo. Yes people will get better at defending them as they become use to the unit, but I feel that the users of the mines are not learning to use them as fast as the opponents are learning to defend them. People still stop using them very early into the game.
The myth that they are worse in the late game (or not worth the supply) might be part of this. They are a splash unit and because of this they should increase in utility as the games goes on. Their attack is also considered a spell so enemy armor upgrades do not effect them.
But the main reason we are seeing a decrease in their strength atm is that a lot of widow mine users are having a lot of success with the more gimmicky attacks like mine rushes and mine drops, and lucky defensive positioning from drops. Eventually we will see mine users skill increase in more 'standard' play with the mines based on baiting the enemy over them, placing them on retreat paths, placing them on the 'cut in' path between your army, your armies attack target and the opponents army etc. (See recent Day9 vids for examples of this type of use).
This is how skill has developed with most units in the game. Skill generally adapts in a back and forth manner slowly reaching an averaged point where both use and defense are at a decent point across the board. But this takes years not weeks of a beta.
On February 09 2013 06:29 FlyingBeer wrote: As others have mentioned, Zerg can't trigger the mines with just one zergling without it dying to cover fire before reaching the mine. My guess is, the player will have to send a minimum of 5 lings to trigger one mine, adding on 2 or 3 for each additional mine. This means mines are, at minimum, trading cost-effectively in mid-game. If Zerg slips up even once, then they can easily lose 1500 minerals/gas worth of units. It's absolutely ridiculous. Terran shouldn't have a unit that counters every single pre-Hive unit Zerg has.
Zerg does have quite a few options to set them off. - x lings (based on the number of units covering the mine - Locusts (which represent 0 loss) - Overlords/Overseers take 2 hits. I have seen Zergs fly 8 overlords over and enemy location to absorb all the mines then move in with their army. Since overlords cost 0 supply and 100 minerals they can become a more cost effective choice then lings quite quickly. - Infested Terrans; 1 infestor can disable up to 8 mines using an infested terran. With a sufficient tank count this can be dropped to 4 mines per infestor. - Burrow move roaches; If you sneak a burrowed mine to within range of a mine then quickly unburrow and reburrow the mine fires at you but (provided they enemy does not have detection on the roach) only the splash hits the roach. Because of this a single roach can knock out multiple mines or even survive the mine + a couple of hits from units covering the mine. - Hydra; Tanks need to be scary close to a mine to be able to hit a hydra while it can shoot at a mine and risk being clouded.
Late Game; Brood lords and ultras can both take out multiple mines.
On February 09 2013 04:01 Zelniq wrote: Why is it that everyone just thinks of using widow mines as isolated units, away from your army? The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg. Watch the recent day9 dailies on it, xigua vs beastyQT
This. I am not sure why terrans have that mind set either. The terrans I have found this composition really strong verse were players like beastyqt who use widow mines with the bio ball. It's so strong and you can't set it off with 1 ling because his armies right there preventing that.
On February 09 2013 02:43 MockHamill wrote: A few weeks ago I would go widow mine/air and have a 70% win rate vs Zerg. Zerg players tried to go for BroodLords/Corruptor or Ultras and widow mines + viking/bansehee/raven would work great against both.
Then lately every player seems to have learned how to bait widow mines with a few units then go in with their whole army and wipe out the widow mines field after they have fired.
Is this the future of widow mines? They will be strong against weak players that try to a-move over them without thought, but close to useless in mid game or late game battles against better opponents?
If anyone is still successful with widow mines past early game against good opponents please describe in detail how you use them.
If you are actually asking "Can I only make Widow Mines and win every single game?" The answer is no and that is a good thing.
Early on they can be really strong in certain pushes and the later it gets the weaker they become in direct engagements.. They are intended to take care of counter attack paths and secure expansions...
On February 09 2013 04:10 avilo wrote: I cautioned this at the very start of beta. I said and repeatedly tried to give feedback to blizzard, the widow mine is a flawed unit. It's strong early game-ish but the longer the game goes, the shittier and more non-existent the unit becomes when the higher tech units come into play.
In the first months of beta/release, the widow mine will seem OK, but as players figure out the game and games lengthen into longer macro games, there will 100% be a problem and the unit will be shown to have an extremely flawed design - the main thing being that it costs 2 supply making your army weaker the longer the game goes, and the more of them you have in your army.
The mine also seems extremely OP vs low skill level players, but vs masters level to pro level the mine will end up looking worthless.
Already wrote many posts about this, here and on the pro forums, as well as mentioning it in videos. I'm sure others have as well to an extent, but blizzard does not seem to recognize this as an issue.
The other issue is these don't really work well with a Terran deathball, while all of the other new additions and buffs to Protoss and Zerg actually enhance those lategame deathballs.
Terran is left out in the cold again.
The dumbest thing about mines is that they're balanced with low level play in mind. They're "strong" at that level, but crap like banelings, storm, fungals, and colossi are broken as shit (but balanced at the pro level). But I've learned that we can't have nice things as Terran, so whatever.
On February 09 2013 04:01 Zelniq wrote: Why is it that everyone just thinks of using widow mines as isolated units, away from your army? The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg. Watch the recent day9 dailies on it, xigua vs beastyQT
This. I am not sure why terrans have that mind set either. The terrans I have found this composition really strong verse were players like beastyqt who use widow mines with the bio ball. It's so strong and you can't set it off with 1 ling because his armies right there preventing that.
Because it suffers from the same crap as tanks that is "friendly fire." I'm not sure if people really grasp how bad friendly fire can wreck a Terran army. I know people that play the other races KNOW it exists, but have never really experienced their whole, slowly remade, army evaporating under their own attacks. It makes the unforgiving micro of Terran that much more unforgiving.
Not only that, but why would you ever chase down a Terran army to get caught in widow mines? In most cases, you're not afraid of the Terran regrouping for an even stronger attack. You're waiting for your "trump card" to come out, whether it's storm, colossus, infestors, or ultras. You're usually biding time against a Terran and not rushing into an engagement with them.
On February 09 2013 04:01 Zelniq wrote: Why is it that everyone just thinks of using widow mines as isolated units, away from your army? The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg. Watch the recent day9 dailies on it, xigua vs beastyQT
This. I am not sure why terrans have that mind set either. The terrans I have found this composition really strong verse were players like beastyqt who use widow mines with the bio ball. It's so strong and you can't set it off with 1 ling because his armies right there preventing that.
Because it suffers from the same crap as tanks that is "friendly fire." I'm not sure if people really grasp how bad friendly fire can wreck a Terran army. I know people that play the other races KNOW it exists, but have never really experienced their whole, slowly remade, army evaporating under their own attacks. It makes the unforgiving micro of Terran that much more unforgiving.
Not only that, but why would you ever chase down a Terran army to get caught in widow mines? In most cases, you're not afraid of the Terran regrouping for an even stronger attack. You're waiting for your "trump card" to come out, whether it's storm, colossus, infestors, or ultras. You're usually biding time against a Terran and not rushing into an engagement with them.
You are chasing because they are ranged and most of zergs units are melee. I remember games bio vs muta/ling/bling, when the engagement was all the way from zerg base to terran base. If mines are used with bio it's just matter of using them right. Yes, you can get caught with friendly fire, but in the most situations mines are great additon.
Widow mines are pretty terrible for what they are designed for (defending open space). Other than that, they are okay imo.
Here's what I basically use them for:
TvT: drop one near your mineral line and 4 or so marines. makes those annoying battle hellino drops a lot easier to deal with since it locks onto the medvac and marines should clean it up. TvP: pretty much same thing as above, just with a missle turret to deal with oracles. TvZ: mutas, though it is kinda iffy.
Other than that, if you have tanks there is no real reason to have widow mines in your army. I suppose if terran is going bio heavy and they have an idle factory it would be worth getting them since more often then not they pay for themselves anyway.
All in all, the unit isn't bad by any means, it just isn't spectacular.
On February 09 2013 04:01 Zelniq wrote: The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg.
This is so true, Terran players using widow mines/bio with some tanks are devastating me at the moment. It's a matter of skill on the part of both players, but mines are certainly useful in TvZ.
There will probably be some regions where widow mines are useless and some where they are super effective. Thats the normal way high risk high reward units work. And something that shots randomly every 40 seconds is pretty high risk Imo, especially with a 2 supply cost. And it is also the normal direction that it took ages for people to realize how easy they are to trigger aswell as it will take even longer for people to realize that you can actually unborrow them fast enough and get a few units for free. Will be alot slow back and forth. Or Blizzard will step in throw a nerf and maybe turn off the unit, like they did with the reaper in WoL or a buff like they did to the Immortal, that destroyed mech. But hey lazy people could use the Immortal now like people that knew how to micro them before. Or everyone agrees on it being bad, till someone finds a use for it. Like the wings Voidray/Carrier. Voidray/Carrier went the same path in HotS as the Immortal did in WoL though.
On February 09 2013 06:29 FlyingBeer wrote: As others have mentioned, Zerg can't trigger the mines with just one zergling without it dying to cover fire before reaching the mine. My guess is, the player will have to send a minimum of 5 lings to trigger one mine, adding on 2 or 3 for each additional mine. This means mines are, at minimum, trading cost-effectively in mid-game. If Zerg slips up even once, then they can easily lose 1500 minerals/gas worth of units. It's absolutely ridiculous. Terran shouldn't have a unit that counters every single pre-Hive unit Zerg has.
The recent day9 dailies are quite illustrative. In the first game, I have no idea how the Zerg player was supposed to keep from losing his third. He only stayed competitive because of the gold base in the center is imbalanced towards Zerg. In the second game, the Zerg player does a ton of damage with lings, killing off all the SCVs at the player's natural, then gets an even bigger advantage with mutas that catch Beastly completely off-guard. Day[9] never showed the worker counts, but I'm guessing Beastly was at least 15 workers behind of where he needed to be. At the pro level, that should be an almost insurmountable loss especially since Star Station has that wide open third that's very favorable to the Zerg. Despite this, Beastly is able to harass with four fully loaded medivacs while holding off ultra/ling attacks with just mines and a few marauders.
I don't know why avilo keeps complaining about late game supply issues. He can just destroy the mines and switch to something else if he has to. Does the uselessness of banshees, hellions, roaches, banelings, mutas, and phoenixes in the late game prevent players from using them in the mid game?
I don't think avilo is complaining about just WM. The issue is this asymmetric balance BS from Blizzard. As we can see in WoL TvZ, terrans were OP (2011) because they had so many early/mid game timings. But then once the maps, buffs, player skill got to a point which these timings are less effective, terran's weakness in the late game units showed. But with WM, blizzard is buffing the Terran early mid game while Zerg gets t2/3 units.
So the affect is likely that either Terran is OP again and dominate zergs again on 2 base pushes or it gets to macro game and Zerg just runs the Terran over. And no one what's to see either again.
On February 09 2013 04:53 zeratul_jf wrote: I dont know about this. If anyone is watching QXC vs Leiya he just basically massed out like 30+ widow mine and destroyed her army. He made them look a bit OP
Fact: Any shift in a paradigm will incur massive losses to those unable to adjust. See Terran who fails to master splitting vs. banelings play.
in theory the widow mine could also be underneath your army basically unavailable to be attacked. imagine placing them in a circular fashion and seiging your tanks directly over them. Just a thought, anyone tried this?
The widow mine serves a very similar role to the tank in that it's best use is to support other units. If you leave a siege tank alone to block a path it might get a kill or two but it will die when your opponent send units to kill it much like the widow mine after you have baited it's shot. If you use bio to block insignificant amounts of units then when your opponent sends a large force of units to attack the bio you just kite back over the mines so that the Zerg sends his entire army right over them. Using tactics like this Terrans can make nearly unbreakable positions untill hive tech.
On February 09 2013 03:58 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: That's why blizzard should put hold-fire on the WM. It's stupid how how free units can activate them :[ I'd gladly give up on WM working on workers if blizzard gives terrans the possibility to hold fire.
On February 09 2013 04:01 Zelniq wrote: Why is it that everyone just thinks of using widow mines as isolated units, away from your army? The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg. Watch the recent day9 dailies on it, xigua vs beastyQT
This.
Also, if your worried about them baiting the Widow mine, ever think of using them like a normal combat unit and burrowing them as the fight happens? Or better yet, doing some burrow micro similar to Swarm Hosts?
The strength of widow mines does not lie in blowing up tons of stuff in one hit, but slowing down enemy and restricting his movement so you can do damage in parts of the map. In lower skill levels this doesnt apply too much and you'll probably mines blowing up stuff everywhere which is obviously good. In higher levels widow mines serve the purpose of making sure the enemy cant blindly walk pass somewhere and must slow down(sending in detection/triggering mines one by one), which is a very powerful way of saying 'I want to do damage here and now and you cant do a thing about it, by the time you get here I already did everything I wanted', this is the strength of mines in higher levels, not producing spectacular firework shows, but controlling his army's mobility.
widow mines are pretty damn strong...i have no idea why anyone would think they are weak...if for one second you aren't looking at your minimap a medivac can drop 3 mines in 1 mineral line and its pretty much dead.....and you can even pick up the mines after if the opponent is out of position....especially in tvp
On February 09 2013 06:29 FlyingBeer wrote: As others have mentioned, Zerg can't trigger the mines with just one zergling without it dying to cover fire before reaching the mine. My guess is, the player will have to send a minimum of 5 lings to trigger one mine, adding on 2 or 3 for each additional mine. This means mines are, at minimum, trading cost-effectively in mid-game. If Zerg slips up even once, then they can easily lose 1500 minerals/gas worth of units. It's absolutely ridiculous. Terran shouldn't have a unit that counters every single pre-Hive unit Zerg has.
The recent day9 dailies are quite illustrative. In the first game, I have no idea how the Zerg player was supposed to keep from losing his third. He only stayed competitive because of the gold base in the center is imbalanced towards Zerg. In the second game, the Zerg player does a ton of damage with lings, killing off all the SCVs at the player's natural, then gets an even bigger advantage with mutas that catch Beastly completely off-guard. Day[9] never showed the worker counts, but I'm guessing Beastly was at least 15 workers behind of where he needed to be. At the pro level, that should be an almost insurmountable loss especially since Star Station has that wide open third that's very favorable to the Zerg. Despite this, Beastly is able to harass with four fully loaded medivacs while holding off ultra/ling attacks with just mines and a few marauders.
I don't know why avilo keeps complaining about late game supply issues. He can just destroy the mines and switch to something else if he has to. Does the uselessness of banshees, hellions, roaches, banelings, mutas, and phoenixes in the late game prevent players from using them in the mid game?
They have more options outside lings. Broodlings and swarm host locusts can easily draw mines fire away from the main army. Note that mines shut down 1 wave, which gives a sh or broodlord a free 20 seconds or so to attack. Broodlords are probably better options since they can still do damage even if broodlings are dead with it's initial impact.
On February 09 2013 06:29 FlyingBeer wrote: As others have mentioned, Zerg can't trigger the mines with just one zergling without it dying to cover fire before reaching the mine. My guess is, the player will have to send a minimum of 5 lings to trigger one mine, adding on 2 or 3 for each additional mine. This means mines are, at minimum, trading cost-effectively in mid-game. If Zerg slips up even once, then they can easily lose 1500 minerals/gas worth of units. It's absolutely ridiculous. Terran shouldn't have a unit that counters every single pre-Hive unit Zerg has.
The recent day9 dailies are quite illustrative. In the first game, I have no idea how the Zerg player was supposed to keep from losing his third. He only stayed competitive because of the gold base in the center is imbalanced towards Zerg. In the second game, the Zerg player does a ton of damage with lings, killing off all the SCVs at the player's natural, then gets an even bigger advantage with mutas that catch Beastly completely off-guard. Day[9] never showed the worker counts, but I'm guessing Beastly was at least 15 workers behind of where he needed to be. At the pro level, that should be an almost insurmountable loss especially since Star Station has that wide open third that's very favorable to the Zerg. Despite this, Beastly is able to harass with four fully loaded medivacs while holding off ultra/ling attacks with just mines and a few marauders.
I don't know why avilo keeps complaining about late game supply issues. He can just destroy the mines and switch to something else if he has to. Does the uselessness of banshees, hellions, roaches, banelings, mutas, and phoenixes in the late game prevent players from using them in the mid game?
They have more options outside lings. Broodlings and swarm host locusts can easily draw mines fire away from the main army. Note that mines shut down 1 wave, which gives a sh or broodlord a free 20 seconds or so to attack. Broodlords are probably better options since they can still do damage even if broodlings are dead with it's initial impact.
So your comparing a unit that is available less than 5 minutes in a game to possibly the latest tier unit in the game? lol
Even SH are much later tier.
This is besides the point that every unit has its counters, and Mines have many uses other than those listed. Also people keep ignoring the fact that Widows could be microed between shots as well, it's much smarter to actually burrow the mines as a fights starting so that the fodder doesn't trigger them, and through micro you can choose their targets at well.
At the pro level Widows will be used far, far differently from how you see typical people using them now.
Honestly, I think Widow Mines are OP against Zerglings and Banelings.
A single shot can kill up to 30+ Zerglings and or Banelings. That's a huge, huge AoE- especially for a ranged unit. Combined with MMM to make sure that they don't waste any shots on things like Locusts, individual Ling/Bane/Roach units trying to detonate one, or otherwise, you're almost set.
The last piece of the puzzle against Zerglings, Banelings, and Roaches is to spread your Widow Mines out a ton. Ideally you wouldn't have any two Widow Mines in the same spot; they would all be spread out over an area, and you would have 10+ of them to maximize the chances you have of getting lots and lots of Zergling/Baneling kills, letting your MMM clean up.
This also stops mass Infestor or Vipers from beating it; since maps tend to be so big nowadays, you have lots and lots of room to spread out and not get more than half your army hit by a couple of Fungals or Blinding Clouds.
Ultras don't work very well because the WM's huge AoE kills all of the supporting Zerglings while the MMM kites the Ultralisks to hell and back, barely taking any damage and doing tons. WM's also do quite a lot of damage to Ultralisks; 375 for the same supply, plus 40 splash damage to nearby units is nothing to scoff at, although it makes it a tad difficult since the WM's don't outright kill the Ultralisks and have the potential to hit Zerglings with their main attack instead of the Ultralisks.
Broodlords are countered pretty darn hard by the new Raven, as well as Bio/WM drops- you have to use more than just Zerglings to clean up drops, now, otherwise you lose tons and tons of Zerglings without killing a ton of Bio.
Mutalisk/Zergling/Baneling against Marines and Widow Mines, which one-shot the Mutas, with no units that out range the Widow Mines or can get past the MMM to detonate some of them.
Swarm hosts I actually don't have a lot of experience watching or playing against, so I'm not sure about them.
I don't like using Overlords because you can spread your Widow Mines to the point where your Marines will clean up the Overlords before they can get to the Widow Mines behind the front line of Bio/Mine. Also, you can just unburrow for the moment and wait for the enemy army to actually attack. It does only take one second to burrow.
Of course, Roach/Hydra is a lot better vs Bio/Widow Mine, and you need Tanks for that. Luckily, Siege Mode is automatically researched now, so you just swap a Reactored Factory with a Tech Labbed Barracks and you're good to go.
Even with all this I don't think the Widow Mine needs a huge nerf, though. I just think that killing 30+ Zerglings and/or Banelings is total overkill, hence a relatively small nerf to the AoE of it would be appropriate.
I think it would be nice if it had a manual-detonation option like the Baneling. It would give it more uses than to be with your main army since it's easy to set it off otherwise. When it's in your main army, it'll defend them really well -- too bad you can't target it, either.
On February 10 2013 01:36 tshi wrote: I think it would be nice if it had a manual-detonation option like the Baneling. It would give it more uses than to be with your main army since it's easy to set it off otherwise. When it's in your main army, it'll defend them really well -- too bad you can't target it, either.
Well, it is very useful when doing a drop against anything except a lot of Roach/Hydra. It really forces the Zerg to be careful when dealing with your drop since if he isn't he loses dozens of Zerglings.
It's completely dumb to have 10 mines sitting alone at the same place. It's pure hope based play. But having mines to protect flanks of your army is still very good, I think. Wait for the truly good players to use them. I'm sure we'll see some sick stuff.
On February 10 2013 01:36 tshi wrote: I think it would be nice if it had a manual-detonation option like the Baneling. It would give it more uses than to be with your main army since it's easy to set it off otherwise. When it's in your main army, it'll defend them really well -- too bad you can't target it, either.
On February 09 2013 02:43 MockHamill wrote: A few weeks ago I would go widow mine/air and have a 70% win rate vs Zerg. Zerg players tried to go for BroodLords/Corruptor or Ultras and widow mines + viking/bansehee/raven would work great against both.
Then lately every player seems to have learned how to bait widow mines with a few units then go in with their whole army and wipe out the widow mines field after they have fired.
Is this the future of widow mines? They will be strong against weak players that try to a-move over them without thought, but close to useless in mid game or late game battles against better opponents?
If anyone is still successful with widow mines past early game against good opponents please describe in detail how you use them.
So as you hit better players you lose more? That means that a certain unit is weak in your eyes. OK
On February 09 2013 04:10 avilo wrote: I cautioned this at the very start of beta. I said and repeatedly tried to give feedback to blizzard, the widow mine is a flawed unit. It's strong early game-ish but the longer the game goes, the shittier and more non-existent the unit becomes when the higher tech units come into play.
In the first months of beta/release, the widow mine will seem OK, but as players figure out the game and games lengthen into longer macro games, there will 100% be a problem and the unit will be shown to have an extremely flawed design - the main thing being that it costs 2 supply making your army weaker the longer the game goes, and the more of them you have in your army.
The mine also seems extremely OP vs low skill level players, but vs masters level to pro level the mine will end up looking worthless.
Already wrote many posts about this, here and on the pro forums, as well as mentioning it in videos. I'm sure others have as well to an extent, but blizzard does not seem to recognize this as an issue.
The other issue is these don't really work well with a Terran deathball, while all of the other new additions and buffs to Protoss and Zerg actually enhance those lategame deathballs.
Terran is left out in the cold again.
Hellbats pretty much work with a Terran "deathball", even without upgrades they're great vs. Chargelots. Plus how good they are to drop, especially early game.
"Left out in the cold"...
Yeah... People who say Terrans left in the cold are out of their minds. Between the new units, even stronger harass options, earlier tanks, and Ravens getting an incredible buff, IMO Terran got the best buffs of all the races in the expansion, so much so that I've actually off-raced them a bit (I NEVER played any race but Zerg in WoL past the campaign).
On February 09 2013 04:10 avilo wrote: I cautioned this at the very start of beta. I said and repeatedly tried to give feedback to blizzard, the widow mine is a flawed unit. It's strong early game-ish but the longer the game goes, the shittier and more non-existent the unit becomes when the higher tech units come into play.
In the first months of beta/release, the widow mine will seem OK, but as players figure out the game and games lengthen into longer macro games, there will 100% be a problem and the unit will be shown to have an extremely flawed design - the main thing being that it costs 2 supply making your army weaker the longer the game goes, and the more of them you have in your army.
The mine also seems extremely OP vs low skill level players, but vs masters level to pro level the mine will end up looking worthless.
Already wrote many posts about this, here and on the pro forums, as well as mentioning it in videos. I'm sure others have as well to an extent, but blizzard does not seem to recognize this as an issue.
The other issue is these don't really work well with a Terran deathball, while all of the other new additions and buffs to Protoss and Zerg actually enhance those lategame deathballs.
Terran is left out in the cold again.
Hellbats pretty much work with a Terran "deathball", even without upgrades they're great vs. Chargelots. Plus how good they are to drop, especially early game.
"Left out in the cold"...
Yeah... People who say Terrans left in the cold are out of their minds. Between the new units, even stronger harass options, earlier tanks, and Ravens getting an incredible buff, IMO Terran got the best buffs of all the races in the expansion, so much so that I've actually off-raced them a bit (I NEVER played any race but Zerg in WoL past the campaign).
I agree with this totally. As a WoL masters in random, Terran was always my achiles heel and i almost always lose against equivalent P/Z and dreaded rolling terran, especially in TvZ. Now, i can't wait to roll Terran whenever i click that play ranked button. Terrans are shaping to be a very well balanced race from start to finish and is my favourite to play with. Those mines and ravens (drools).
On February 09 2013 04:10 avilo wrote: I cautioned this at the very start of beta. I said and repeatedly tried to give feedback to blizzard, the widow mine is a flawed unit. It's strong early game-ish but the longer the game goes, the shittier and more non-existent the unit becomes when the higher tech units come into play.
In the first months of beta/release, the widow mine will seem OK, but as players figure out the game and games lengthen into longer macro games, there will 100% be a problem and the unit will be shown to have an extremely flawed design - the main thing being that it costs 2 supply making your army weaker the longer the game goes, and the more of them you have in your army.
The mine also seems extremely OP vs low skill level players, but vs masters level to pro level the mine will end up looking worthless.
Already wrote many posts about this, here and on the pro forums, as well as mentioning it in videos. I'm sure others have as well to an extent, but blizzard does not seem to recognize this as an issue.
The other issue is these don't really work well with a Terran deathball, while all of the other new additions and buffs to Protoss and Zerg actually enhance those lategame deathballs.
Terran is left out in the cold again.
Hellbats pretty much work with a Terran "deathball", even without upgrades they're great vs. Chargelots. Plus how good they are to drop, especially early game.
"Left out in the cold"...
Yeah... People who say Terrans left in the cold are out of their minds. Between the new units, even stronger harass options, earlier tanks, and Ravens getting an incredible buff, IMO Terran got the best buffs of all the races in the expansion, so much so that I've actually off-raced them a bit (I NEVER played any race but Zerg in WoL past the campaign).
I agree with this totally. As a WoL masters in random, Terran was always my achiles heel and i almost always lose against equivalent P/Z and dreaded rolling terran, especially in TvZ. Now, i can't wait to roll Terran whenever i click that play ranked button. Terrans are shaping to be a very well balanced race from start to finish and is my favourite to play with. Those mines and ravens (drools).
Yeah. The Ravens are incredible. In WoL they didn't compare to a Sci Vessel, but now they might even be stronger than a Sci Vessel!
Hellbats and Widow mines are incredible if for no other reason, because of how insanely cheap they are! As a Zerg main I can honestly say you don't know how much of an asset it is to be able to get such a variety of units earlier game.
As Zerg in WoL I felt I was the race best used for flanking opponents and always used it as an integral part of my strategy. But now? You would never think it but Terrans are even better. Engage and then drop some hellbats behind the enemy and they will start eating up all the light units, send in a bunch of Seeker Missiles, and bam... all thats left is a bunch of blood on the ground. The Hellbats trap the opponent so you can't run off, if they try backing off they get burnt up by Hellbats, if they move forward they run in to unavoidable Widows, and either choice they pick they aren't getting away from the missiles!
This is after relentless harassment the entire game... Just nuts! Terran has an improved early game AND late game because of this!
Yeah Zerg has a lot of strong stuff added to their late game, but the best new Zerg unit is definitely the Viper (spellcaster), but Terran got 2 amazing early game units and Raven is basically a new spellcaster as well. The synergy of those 3 is sick... especially when you bring a "Zerg" flanking mentality in to the mix!
I actually think as skill increases, really good Terrans can bait and push armies into money widow mine hits.
I'm not a Terran but:
1. Hide widow mine in medivac 2. Engage in a battle. 3. When you are sure he is not looking, drop the widow mine and burrow it somewhere good 4. Bait army in an angle that will push or pull the enemy into the trap 5. Profit?
Terrans agree?
I also think widow mines in enemy retreat paths will become a thing.
On February 09 2013 04:10 avilo wrote: I cautioned this at the very start of beta. I said and repeatedly tried to give feedback to blizzard, the widow mine is a flawed unit. It's strong early game-ish but the longer the game goes, the shittier and more non-existent the unit becomes when the higher tech units come into play.
In the first months of beta/release, the widow mine will seem OK, but as players figure out the game and games lengthen into longer macro games, there will 100% be a problem and the unit will be shown to have an extremely flawed design - the main thing being that it costs 2 supply making your army weaker the longer the game goes, and the more of them you have in your army.
The mine also seems extremely OP vs low skill level players, but vs masters level to pro level the mine will end up looking worthless.
Already wrote many posts about this, here and on the pro forums, as well as mentioning it in videos. I'm sure others have as well to an extent, but blizzard does not seem to recognize this as an issue.
The other issue is these don't really work well with a Terran deathball, while all of the other new additions and buffs to Protoss and Zerg actually enhance those lategame deathballs.
Terran is left out in the cold again.
The dumbest thing about mines is that they're balanced with low level play in mind. They're "strong" at that level, but crap like banelings, storm, fungals, and colossi are broken as shit (but balanced at the pro level). But I've learned that we can't have nice things as Terran, so whatever.
Having Marines but complains about having no nice thing?
On February 09 2013 02:43 MockHamill wrote: A few weeks ago I would go widow mine/air and have a 70% win rate vs Zerg. Zerg players tried to go for BroodLords/Corruptor or Ultras and widow mines + viking/bansehee/raven would work great against both.
Then lately every player seems to have learned how to bait widow mines with a few units then go in with their whole army and wipe out the widow mines field after they have fired.
Is this the future of widow mines?
The future is certainly not that you maintain 70% versus zerg.
I think this is a bit like saying "skilled players never lose to cheese" (and the widow mine is quite a bit more solid than that). Well actually, they do. Happens all the time. It's all about how you scout and deal with it in a given game.
The widow mine in particular is extremely punishing if you ever make even one mistake during any 2-second period in a game that could go for an hour. I don't think any human being is capable of never losing units to Widow Mines, especially given that you can be very clever about their placement.
It's not always as simple as "run a ling or overlord by" if the rest of the army will kill that unit first, there's nothing you can do. Sometimes, unless someone comes up with something new, you really just have to engage all the mines and tank all the hits and be as spread out as you can.
Widow mines are really good to act as a buffer vs Zerg using mech. Especially vs Ultras. 125 instant unmitigated damage? Yes please. Even better when Zerg throws down a few blinding clouds long as you sit near your mines.
On February 10 2013 00:37 Fencar wrote: Honestly, I think Widow Mines are OP against Zerglings and Banelings.
A single shot can kill up to 30+ Zerglings and or Banelings.
i don't have access to beta so i can't test. is this true if you a-move your lings into a mine? 30 seemed a lot
You don't need to a-move to lose units. You can lose 30+ lings any time you go anywhere with your units, unless you're always moving around the map with detection. Which pretty much completely negates the speed advantage of any Zerg unit that is faster than an Overseer with speed upgrade. For all practical purposes Zerglings and Mutalisks have 2.75 move speed now in HotS in the TvZ matchup.
mines are definitely less effective at higher levels but it will always be useful even at the top level. After all, we still see occasional burrowed banelings used to significant effect at the top levels of play, and functionality wise, Widow mines are better in every way (cost, damage, range) except for supply than burrowed banelings.
Similar to how we now often see banelings burrowed in the middle of an actual battle, I think in the future we will see mines used as part of battles like someone else mentioned. It doesn't matter if blizzard intended them to be defensive to discourage death balls, i think we all know that blizzard cant usually do what they intend.
Widow mines suck. Bottom line. They're nothing more than a gimmick play. You can't use them as defense since they have range 5 and have a tendency to either be dodged or sacrificed on 1 unit. Even when your opponent is an idiot and a+moves into the mine(s), the AI tends to create a line of units in SC2, reducing the effectiveness of mines a TON. Their only use is to use them offensively into mineral lines (which is better done with hellbats) or attempt some suicidal burrow during an engagement (which is wasted APM). Bad unit, bad design.
Not only are they super efficient when they're used in combination with an army to make it more difficult to engage the army without taking huge splash, while making it more difficult to activate or kill them because they're protected by said army, they make it impossible for small groups of units to move around the map quickly without detection, which means you're always better off keeping your whole army together, with Overseers on top, and moving cautiously across the map, checking every inch for mines, deathball style.
On February 10 2013 00:37 Fencar wrote: Honestly, I think Widow Mines are OP against Zerglings and Banelings.
A single shot can kill up to 30+ Zerglings and or Banelings.
i don't have access to beta so i can't test. is this true if you a-move your lings into a mine? 30 seemed a lot
You don't need to a-move to lose units. You can lose 30+ lings any time you go anywhere with your units, unless you're always moving around the map with detection. Which pretty much completely negates the speed advantage of any Zerg unit that is faster than an Overseer with speed upgrade. For all practical purposes Zerglings and Mutalisks have 2.75 move speed now in HotS in the TvZ matchup.
Unless you keep 1 ling in front of your army.... Then your speed is unaffected. I've been trying to work out the fastest way to get 1 ling in front of my army especially when changing directions. What I'm doing atm is box all, rightclick where I want to go, shift click 1 out of the group, then pressing stop and reclicking the location I want to travel too. I feel like it's faster to do that than it is to select 1 ling and move to target then select the rest of move to target.
On February 10 2013 06:35 Disastorm wrote: mines are definitely less effective at higher levels but it will always be useful even at the top level. After all, we still see occasional burrowed banelings used to significant effect at the top levels of play, and functionality wise, Widow mines are better in every way (cost, damage, range) except for supply than burrowed banelings.
Similar to how we now often see banelings burrowed in the middle of an actual battle, I think in the future we will see mines used as part of battles like someone else mentioned. It doesn't matter if blizzard intended them to be defensive to discourage death balls, i think we all know that blizzard cant usually do what they intend.
Burrowed banelings don't randomly explode on 1 ling/marine/zealot, cost 1/2 of a supply, and can be used while unburrowed. Burrowed banelings in combat work because of that last point, since your opponent is attempting to dodge banelings, it's easy to miss a few being burrowed between all the "fancy lights." Also, in the case of burrowed banelings, the Terran is almost always the aggressor, willing to give chase to push further into the base and get caught by baneling mines. That's hardly the case against Terran.
Face it, you're all coming up with excuses for the unit, just like you did with ravens in WoL. It's a crappy unit in both design and balance.
On February 10 2013 00:37 Fencar wrote: Honestly, I think Widow Mines are OP against Zerglings and Banelings.
A single shot can kill up to 30+ Zerglings and or Banelings.
i don't have access to beta so i can't test. is this true if you a-move your lings into a mine? 30 seemed a lot
You don't need to a-move to lose units. You can lose 30+ lings any time you go anywhere with your units, unless you're always moving around the map with detection. Which pretty much completely negates the speed advantage of any Zerg unit that is faster than an Overseer with speed upgrade. For all practical purposes Zerglings and Mutalisks have 2.75 move speed now in HotS in the TvZ matchup.
Unless you keep 1 ling in front of your army.... Then your speed is unaffected. I've been trying to work out the fastest way to get 1 ling in front of my army especially when changing directions. What I'm doing atm is box all, rightclick where I want to go, shift click 1 out of the group, then pressing stop and reclicking the location I want to travel too. I feel like it's faster to do that than it is to select 1 ling and move to target then select the rest of move to target.
And what if there are 2 mines, what if there are 3? How do you know how many Zerglings to run ahead? So you run 1 ling ahead, it blew up, what do you do now? You keep running? What if there's another mine a little further ahead? Do you stop, put 1 ling ahead again, then start moving your units again?
So move-stop-move-stop... that sounds to me like you're moving a lot slower all of a sudden, aren't you? That is my whole point.
On February 10 2013 00:37 Fencar wrote: Honestly, I think Widow Mines are OP against Zerglings and Banelings.
A single shot can kill up to 30+ Zerglings and or Banelings.
i don't have access to beta so i can't test. is this true if you a-move your lings into a mine? 30 seemed a lot
You don't need to a-move to lose units. You can lose 30+ lings any time you go anywhere with your units, unless you're always moving around the map with detection. Which pretty much completely negates the speed advantage of any Zerg unit that is faster than an Overseer with speed upgrade. For all practical purposes Zerglings and Mutalisks have 2.75 move speed now in HotS in the TvZ matchup.
Unless you keep 1 ling in front of your army.... Then your speed is unaffected. I've been trying to work out the fastest way to get 1 ling in front of my army especially when changing directions. What I'm doing atm is box all, rightclick where I want to go, shift click 1 out of the group, then pressing stop and reclicking the location I want to travel too. I feel like it's faster to do that than it is to select 1 ling and move to target then select the rest of move to target.
And what if there are 2 mines, what if there are 3? How do you know how many Zerglings to run ahead? So you run 1 ling ahead, it blew up, what do you do now? You keep running? What if there's another mine a little further ahead? Do you stop, put 1 ling ahead again, then start moving your units again?
So move-stop-move-stop... that sounds to me like you're moving a lot slower a lot of a sudden, aren't you? That is my whole point.
You put 1 ling in front. If there is more than 1 mine in a group, they all reveal until the first mine shoots. If your ling catches a mine, you know the Terran is wasting resources on mines and you repeat the process for every mine you find. It's not like Terran is Zerg, where 20-30s of defense can be the difference between crushing the push and dying. If the Terran is wasting supply on mines and you trip 3-6 of them without taking REAL damage, you've already won the engagement basically.
On February 10 2013 00:37 Fencar wrote: Honestly, I think Widow Mines are OP against Zerglings and Banelings.
A single shot can kill up to 30+ Zerglings and or Banelings.
i don't have access to beta so i can't test. is this true if you a-move your lings into a mine? 30 seemed a lot
You don't need to a-move to lose units. You can lose 30+ lings any time you go anywhere with your units, unless you're always moving around the map with detection. Which pretty much completely negates the speed advantage of any Zerg unit that is faster than an Overseer with speed upgrade. For all practical purposes Zerglings and Mutalisks have 2.75 move speed now in HotS in the TvZ matchup.
Unless you keep 1 ling in front of your army.... Then your speed is unaffected. I've been trying to work out the fastest way to get 1 ling in front of my army especially when changing directions. What I'm doing atm is box all, rightclick where I want to go, shift click 1 out of the group, then pressing stop and reclicking the location I want to travel too. I feel like it's faster to do that than it is to select 1 ling and move to target then select the rest of move to target.
And what if there are 2 mines, what if there are 3? How do you know how many Zerglings to run ahead? So you run 1 ling ahead, it blew up, what do you do now? You keep running? What if there's another mine a little further ahead? Do you stop, put 1 ling ahead again, then start moving your units again?
So move-stop-move-stop... that sounds to me like you're moving a lot slower a lot of a sudden, aren't you? That is my whole point.
You put 1 ling in front. If there is more than 1 mine in a group, they all reveal until the first mine shoots. If your ling catches a mine, you know the Terran is wasting resources on mines and you repeat the process for every mine you find. It's not like Terran is Zerg, where 20-30s of defense can be the difference between crushing the push and dying. If the Terran is wasting supply on mines and you trip 3-6 of them without taking REAL damage, you've already won the engagement basically.
Oh but I didn't kill the mine, I just triggered it. Nothing is wasted, except that Zergling I lost. Terran doesn't need to put all the mines together in 1 clump, just because I triggered one, doesn't mean I will see or trigger the one a little further ahead, unless I proceed with the same caution.
If I want to actually "waste" the mine, I need detection. Which again brings me back to my point. My Zerglings now, for all practical purposes, have 2.25 move speed.
On February 10 2013 06:43 aksfjh wrote: Widow mines suck. Bottom line. They're nothing more than a gimmick play. You can't use them as defense since they have range 5 and have a tendency to either be dodged or sacrificed on 1 unit. Even when your opponent is an idiot and a+moves into the mine(s), the AI tends to create a line of units in SC2, reducing the effectiveness of mines a TON. Their only use is to use them offensively into mineral lines (which is better done with hellbats) or attempt some suicidal burrow during an engagement (which is wasted APM). Bad unit, bad design.
... you can say that during the beta already, before the game is launched?
On February 09 2013 04:10 avilo wrote: I cautioned this at the very start of beta. I said and repeatedly tried to give feedback to blizzard, the widow mine is a flawed unit. It's strong early game-ish but the longer the game goes, the shittier and more non-existent the unit becomes when the higher tech units come into play.
In the first months of beta/release, the widow mine will seem OK, but as players figure out the game and games lengthen into longer macro games, there will 100% be a problem and the unit will be shown to have an extremely flawed design - the main thing being that it costs 2 supply making your army weaker the longer the game goes, and the more of them you have in your army.
The mine also seems extremely OP vs low skill level players, but vs masters level to pro level the mine will end up looking worthless.
Already wrote many posts about this, here and on the pro forums, as well as mentioning it in videos. I'm sure others have as well to an extent, but blizzard does not seem to recognize this as an issue.
The other issue is these don't really work well with a Terran deathball, while all of the other new additions and buffs to Protoss and Zerg actually enhance those lategame deathballs.
Terran is left out in the cold again.
I just wonder, what the fuck are you doing in the pro forum? Or is it the "pro whiner" forum? Cause honestly, you're a disease in this community. Every single post you make is filled with discontent towards the games balance, and it has always been purely about terrans UP. I bet you could find posts from back in 2010 of you crying terran UP aswell... sigh, Avilo.. such a joke
On February 10 2013 00:37 Fencar wrote: Honestly, I think Widow Mines are OP against Zerglings and Banelings.
A single shot can kill up to 30+ Zerglings and or Banelings.
i don't have access to beta so i can't test. is this true if you a-move your lings into a mine? 30 seemed a lot
You don't need to a-move to lose units. You can lose 30+ lings any time you go anywhere with your units, unless you're always moving around the map with detection. Which pretty much completely negates the speed advantage of any Zerg unit that is faster than an Overseer with speed upgrade. For all practical purposes Zerglings and Mutalisks have 2.75 move speed now in HotS in the TvZ matchup.
Unless you keep 1 ling in front of your army.... Then your speed is unaffected. I've been trying to work out the fastest way to get 1 ling in front of my army especially when changing directions. What I'm doing atm is box all, rightclick where I want to go, shift click 1 out of the group, then pressing stop and reclicking the location I want to travel too. I feel like it's faster to do that than it is to select 1 ling and move to target then select the rest of move to target.
And what if there are 2 mines, what if there are 3? How do you know how many Zerglings to run ahead? So you run 1 ling ahead, it blew up, what do you do now? You keep running? What if there's another mine a little further ahead? Do you stop, put 1 ling ahead again, then start moving your units again?
So move-stop-move-stop... that sounds to me like you're moving a lot slower a lot of a sudden, aren't you? That is my whole point.
You put 1 ling in front. If there is more than 1 mine in a group, they all reveal until the first mine shoots. If your ling catches a mine, you know the Terran is wasting resources on mines and you repeat the process for every mine you find. It's not like Terran is Zerg, where 20-30s of defense can be the difference between crushing the push and dying. If the Terran is wasting supply on mines and you trip 3-6 of them without taking REAL damage, you've already won the engagement basically.
Oh but I didn't kill the mine, I just triggered it. Nothing is wasted, except that Zergling I lost. Terran doesn't need to put all the mines together in 1 clump, just because I triggered one, doesn't mean I will see or trigger the one a little further ahead, unless I proceed with the same caution.
If I want to actually "waste" the mine, I need detection. Which again brings me back to my point. My Zerglings now, for all practical purposes, have 2.25 move speed.
If thats how you choose to play I guess. To me the only "waste" you describe is the waste of time and resources you are using to kill mines with your current method. Look at it this way. If you have an overseer near your army AND you keep 1 ling in front you can run around at max speed. When your front ling gets blown up you have 40 seconds to get your overseer in position to let the rest of the lings kill the mine. This way your lings are moving at max speed at all times and you are still loosing 1 ling to kill 1 mine.
But more importantly, do you realize that mines become visible (but still not attackable without detection) when you are within 5.5 radius of them? And that even when you are within their attack range of 5 it takes around a second before they actually fire? If you are watching your lings you can see a mine reveal and double back without it even shooting. Using an overseer for constant detection is a crutch. And not a good one, because as you have said you are sacrificing movement speed when there are other options you could be taking which don't require such a large sacrifice.
Wow... some of the comments here are so ridiculous....
On February 10 2013 06:43 aksfjh wrote: Widow mines suck. Bottom line. They're nothing more than a gimmick play. You can't use them as defense since they have range 5 and have a tendency to either be dodged or sacrificed on 1 unit. Even when your opponent is an idiot and a+moves into the mine(s), the AI tends to create a line of units in SC2, reducing the effectiveness of mines a TON. Their only use is to use them offensively into mineral lines (which is better done with hellbats) or attempt some suicidal burrow during an engagement (which is wasted APM). Bad unit, bad design.
That's so far off, but let's say what your saying is true for a second. How about using your ability to choose the Mines target (which you can do), or if your worried about them being dodged, how about using your positioning and drops to restrict their movement so they can't get away?
On February 10 2013 06:44 sitromit wrote: They actually encourage deathballs.
Not only are they super efficient when they're used in combination with an army to make it more difficult to engage the army without taking huge splash, while making it more difficult to activate or kill them because they're protected by said army, they make it impossible for small groups of units to move around the map quickly without detection, which means you're always better off keeping your whole army together, with Overseers on top, and moving cautiously across the map, checking every inch for mines, deathball style.
Wow again... AoE is the counter to deathball play.... If you do what you are saying you are doing EXACTLY what the Terran player wants you to do, and your bound to blow up a number of units... Or crawl at a snails pace in to their other AoE.
I can't wait until pros start playing and show people how to use Widows properly. For some reason people are thinking of the proper usage of them as spreading them randomly across the map. They arent spider mines, these mines are actual units that cost supply... Use them like a real unit and maybe you'll start seeing how useful they are...
On February 10 2013 00:37 Fencar wrote: Honestly, I think Widow Mines are OP against Zerglings and Banelings.
A single shot can kill up to 30+ Zerglings and or Banelings.
i don't have access to beta so i can't test. is this true if you a-move your lings into a mine? 30 seemed a lot
You don't need to a-move to lose units. You can lose 30+ lings any time you go anywhere with your units, unless you're always moving around the map with detection. Which pretty much completely negates the speed advantage of any Zerg unit that is faster than an Overseer with speed upgrade. For all practical purposes Zerglings and Mutalisks have 2.75 move speed now in HotS in the TvZ matchup.
Unless you keep 1 ling in front of your army.... Then your speed is unaffected. I've been trying to work out the fastest way to get 1 ling in front of my army especially when changing directions. What I'm doing atm is box all, rightclick where I want to go, shift click 1 out of the group, then pressing stop and reclicking the location I want to travel too. I feel like it's faster to do that than it is to select 1 ling and move to target then select the rest of move to target.
And what if there are 2 mines, what if there are 3? How do you know how many Zerglings to run ahead? So you run 1 ling ahead, it blew up, what do you do now? You keep running? What if there's another mine a little further ahead? Do you stop, put 1 ling ahead again, then start moving your units again?
So move-stop-move-stop... that sounds to me like you're moving a lot slower a lot of a sudden, aren't you? That is my whole point.
You put 1 ling in front. If there is more than 1 mine in a group, they all reveal until the first mine shoots. If your ling catches a mine, you know the Terran is wasting resources on mines and you repeat the process for every mine you find. It's not like Terran is Zerg, where 20-30s of defense can be the difference between crushing the push and dying. If the Terran is wasting supply on mines and you trip 3-6 of them without taking REAL damage, you've already won the engagement basically.
Oh but I didn't kill the mine, I just triggered it. Nothing is wasted, except that Zergling I lost. Terran doesn't need to put all the mines together in 1 clump, just because I triggered one, doesn't mean I will see or trigger the one a little further ahead, unless I proceed with the same caution.
If I want to actually "waste" the mine, I need detection. Which again brings me back to my point. My Zerglings now, for all practical purposes, have 2.25 move speed.
If you could waste 1 forcefield for every 1 ling you sent at a Protoss base, would that not be worth it? You wouldn't kill the sentry, but could make it useless, making it essentially 2 supply of dead weight until it gains that energy back. That's what happens when 1 marine or 1 ling detonates 1 mine, it makes that mine dead weight for 40s.
What does it take to do that if he has 10 mines around the map (20 supply)? About 3s of separating out 10 lings in a relatively stress free situation to lead the way to whatever the target is. Or you can just, idk, expand more because it's not like he can actually attack you with the mines.
I just want to say that one thing that Zergs have done against me when I have widow mines is to magic box their mutas and just sit them right over top of my army. My Mines all target the Mutas and they blow up their Mutas as well as my whole army. It might sound kinda silly but it actually kinda sucks to be the Terran in that situation cause then they just come in with their Zerglings and all my mines are detonated already and I have no units left.
Obviously, I could just unborrow my mines if I see the Mutas coming or some other kinda of positioning/micro, but I wanted to point this out if you zergies see a Terran with his Mines too close to his army.
On February 10 2013 00:37 Fencar wrote: Honestly, I think Widow Mines are OP against Zerglings and Banelings.
A single shot can kill up to 30+ Zerglings and or Banelings.
i don't have access to beta so i can't test. is this true if you a-move your lings into a mine? 30 seemed a lot
You don't need to a-move to lose units. You can lose 30+ lings any time you go anywhere with your units, unless you're always moving around the map with detection. Which pretty much completely negates the speed advantage of any Zerg unit that is faster than an Overseer with speed upgrade. For all practical purposes Zerglings and Mutalisks have 2.75 move speed now in HotS in the TvZ matchup.
Unless you keep 1 ling in front of your army.... Then your speed is unaffected. I've been trying to work out the fastest way to get 1 ling in front of my army especially when changing directions. What I'm doing atm is box all, rightclick where I want to go, shift click 1 out of the group, then pressing stop and reclicking the location I want to travel too. I feel like it's faster to do that than it is to select 1 ling and move to target then select the rest of move to target.
And what if there are 2 mines, what if there are 3? How do you know how many Zerglings to run ahead? So you run 1 ling ahead, it blew up, what do you do now? You keep running? What if there's another mine a little further ahead? Do you stop, put 1 ling ahead again, then start moving your units again?
So move-stop-move-stop... that sounds to me like you're moving a lot slower a lot of a sudden, aren't you? That is my whole point.
You put 1 ling in front. If there is more than 1 mine in a group, they all reveal until the first mine shoots. If your ling catches a mine, you know the Terran is wasting resources on mines and you repeat the process for every mine you find. It's not like Terran is Zerg, where 20-30s of defense can be the difference between crushing the push and dying. If the Terran is wasting supply on mines and you trip 3-6 of them without taking REAL damage, you've already won the engagement basically.
Oh but I didn't kill the mine, I just triggered it. Nothing is wasted, except that Zergling I lost. Terran doesn't need to put all the mines together in 1 clump, just because I triggered one, doesn't mean I will see or trigger the one a little further ahead, unless I proceed with the same caution.
If I want to actually "waste" the mine, I need detection. Which again brings me back to my point. My Zerglings now, for all practical purposes, have 2.25 move speed.
If you could waste 1 forcefield for every 1 ling you sent at a Protoss base, would that not be worth it? You wouldn't kill the sentry, but could make it useless, making it essentially 2 supply of dead weight until it gains that energy back. That's what happens when 1 marine or 1 ling detonates 1 mine, it makes that mine dead weight for 40s.
What does it take to do that if he has 10 mines around the map (20 supply)? About 3s of separating out 10 lings in a relatively stress free situation to lead the way to whatever the target is. Or you can just, idk, expand more because it's not like he can actually attack you with the mines.
The ONLY time it's a good idea to spread mines around a map like that in TvZ is if you have 3 mines covering a min line to stop Muta harass.
Why on earth would you spread 10 mines on the map randomly?
Your last sentence shows how ignorant you are to the situation. Widow mines work best the same way as Siege tanks, and have an amazing synergy along with siege tanks. You can do the most damage with them DURING a fight, because you straight up restrict an area, and if they don't follow that restriction they will blow up.
This is supposed to be a real time STRATEGY game. This will require you to think for a second... If you were trying to get the most efficiency out of a Widow mine during a fight, what would you do? Actually think about this question, and come up with some strategies as the best way to use them in a REAL FIGHT.
On February 10 2013 07:50 Buff345 wrote: I just want to say that one thing that Zergs have done against me when I have widow mines is to magic box their mutas and just sit them right over top of my army. My Mines all target the Mutas and they blow up their Mutas as well as my whole army. It might sound kinda silly but it actually kinda sucks to be the Terran in that situation cause then they just come in with their Zerglings and all my mines are detonated already and I have no units left.
Obviously, I could just unborrow my mines if I see the Mutas coming or some other kinda of positioning/micro, but I wanted to point this out if you zergies see a Terran with his Mines too close to his army.
Ya bad placement could blow your own army up. But keep in mind, blowing up mutas is a HUGE investment for the Zerg. If you do it without bad placement on your own units, you could pull ahead
And it usually only takes 3 hits to blow up the Mutas, just so your aware of how many you need
On February 10 2013 07:50 Buff345 wrote: I just want to say that one thing that Zergs have done against me when I have widow mines is to magic box their mutas and just sit them right over top of my army. My Mines all target the Mutas and they blow up their Mutas as well as my whole army. It might sound kinda silly but it actually kinda sucks to be the Terran in that situation cause then they just come in with their Zerglings and all my mines are detonated already and I have no units left.
Obviously, I could just unborrow my mines if I see the Mutas coming or some other kinda of positioning/micro, but I wanted to point this out if you zergies see a Terran with his Mines too close to his army.
Similar thing happened to me, but with toss and hallu pheonixes. I thought it'd be suicide to put my mines right next to my army, but I didn't realise mine dragging would do that much damage in this game and well, boom went all my tanks :p
On February 10 2013 07:50 Buff345 wrote: I just want to say that one thing that Zergs have done against me when I have widow mines is to magic box their mutas and just sit them right over top of my army. My Mines all target the Mutas and they blow up their Mutas as well as my whole army. It might sound kinda silly but it actually kinda sucks to be the Terran in that situation cause then they just come in with their Zerglings and all my mines are detonated already and I have no units left.
Obviously, I could just unborrow my mines if I see the Mutas coming or some other kinda of positioning/micro, but I wanted to point this out if you zergies see a Terran with his Mines too close to his army.
Pretty sure that if the splash hits an air unit there is only air splash and if it hits the ground there is only ground splash. Testing now.
Edit: Wow the splash does hit both air and ground. This means the faster the air unit used for mine dragging the further away the mines need to be from the Terrans army to avoid disaster.
On February 10 2013 06:43 aksfjh wrote: Widow mines suck. Bottom line. They're nothing more than a gimmick play. You can't use them as defense since they have range 5 and have a tendency to either be dodged or sacrificed on 1 unit. Even when your opponent is an idiot and a+moves into the mine(s), the AI tends to create a line of units in SC2, reducing the effectiveness of mines a TON. Their only use is to use them offensively into mineral lines (which is better done with hellbats) or attempt some suicidal burrow during an engagement (which is wasted APM). Bad unit, bad design.
That's so far off, but let's say what your saying is true for a second. How about using your ability to choose the Mines target (which you can do), or if your worried about them being dodged, how about using your positioning and drops to restrict their movement so they can't get away?
By "dodge," I meant straight up avoid the mines by taking different routes if you're using them to control space. As for the targeting part, again, it takes too much APM and attention to do in a 1s window.
On February 10 2013 07:50 Buff345 wrote: I just want to say that one thing that Zergs have done against me when I have widow mines is to magic box their mutas and just sit them right over top of my army. My Mines all target the Mutas and they blow up their Mutas as well as my whole army. It might sound kinda silly but it actually kinda sucks to be the Terran in that situation cause then they just come in with their Zerglings and all my mines are detonated already and I have no units left.
Obviously, I could just unborrow my mines if I see the Mutas coming or some other kinda of positioning/micro, but I wanted to point this out if you zergies see a Terran with his Mines too close to his army.
Similar thing happened to me, but with toss and hallu pheonixes. I thought it'd be suicide to put my mines right next to my army, but I didn't realise mine dragging would do that much damage in this game and well, boom went all my tanks :p
On February 10 2013 07:50 Buff345 wrote: I just want to say that one thing that Zergs have done against me when I have widow mines is to magic box their mutas and just sit them right over top of my army. My Mines all target the Mutas and they blow up their Mutas as well as my whole army. It might sound kinda silly but it actually kinda sucks to be the Terran in that situation cause then they just come in with their Zerglings and all my mines are detonated already and I have no units left.
Obviously, I could just unborrow my mines if I see the Mutas coming or some other kinda of positioning/micro, but I wanted to point this out if you zergies see a Terran with his Mines too close to his army.
Similar thing happened to me, but with toss and hallu pheonixes. I thought it'd be suicide to put my mines right next to my army, but I didn't realise mine dragging would do that much damage in this game and well, boom went all my tanks :p
It splashes both, regardless of target.
I realised that, but up until that one game I hadn't been properly mine dragged as I've never really had any luck with them against toss until the recent buff. I'll make sure to never let that happen again most definately.
The thing is... Widow mines give about as much as you put into them.
Yes, if you just siege them up like a tank, people will bait a shot and then run past them. But that's only if they know they are there. The upgrade which lets them burrow instantly is very very very strong in the late game, because if you are consistent and tricky with moving them around, it can be a real nightmare to attack into. Keep in mind just having mines at all demands detection from your opponent - not an insignificant cost.
Widow mines are the sort of unit that really reward multitasking. If you can look right at them in the main engagement sure, they can be out micro'd. But the more spread out they are, the more APM they demand from your opponent to deal with, and it's a disproportionate amount compared to you setting them up. I've faced terran players who will literally try to drop/runby a widowmine into every base I have as they push out with their main army - it's a huge pain in the ass distraction because you can't just a-move in their direction like a bio drop, and they're VERY easy to lose track of in a hectic game just like DTs or burrowed infestors would be.
You can also use them not to defend an attack, but to flank an incoming attack, so as you force their retreat they get bombed (usually detection will be in front, not behind). I think they have a lot of really sick tactical uses, especially if you consider them as a tax on your opponent's attention span more than a sick pew-pew missle launcher. The simplest way to use them is to defend bases or accompany a big army as you move out, but I suspect we will see some very sick and painful tactical plays in the future when a skilled & korean harassment-oriented terran looks into them further for us.
On February 10 2013 07:39 Spyridon wrote: Wow... some of the comments here are so ridiculous....
On February 10 2013 06:43 aksfjh wrote: Widow mines suck. Bottom line. They're nothing more than a gimmick play. You can't use them as defense since they have range 5 and have a tendency to either be dodged or sacrificed on 1 unit. Even when your opponent is an idiot and a+moves into the mine(s), the AI tends to create a line of units in SC2, reducing the effectiveness of mines a TON. Their only use is to use them offensively into mineral lines (which is better done with hellbats) or attempt some suicidal burrow during an engagement (which is wasted APM). Bad unit, bad design.
That's so far off, but let's say what your saying is true for a second. How about using your ability to choose the Mines target (which you can do), or if your worried about them being dodged, how about using your positioning and drops to restrict their movement so they can't get away?
By "dodge," I meant straight up avoid the mines by taking different routes if you're using them to control space. As for the targeting part, again, it takes too much APM and attention to do in a 1s window.
Not really. Hotkey lead mine, see red, double-tap hotkey, click clump.
Your ability to devote APM and attention to your mines should scale pretty nicely with your opponent's ability to deal efficiently with mines on the map. It's a nice self-balancing mechanism.
On February 10 2013 07:39 Spyridon wrote: Wow... some of the comments here are so ridiculous....
On February 10 2013 06:43 aksfjh wrote: Widow mines suck. Bottom line. They're nothing more than a gimmick play. You can't use them as defense since they have range 5 and have a tendency to either be dodged or sacrificed on 1 unit. Even when your opponent is an idiot and a+moves into the mine(s), the AI tends to create a line of units in SC2, reducing the effectiveness of mines a TON. Their only use is to use them offensively into mineral lines (which is better done with hellbats) or attempt some suicidal burrow during an engagement (which is wasted APM). Bad unit, bad design.
That's so far off, but let's say what your saying is true for a second. How about using your ability to choose the Mines target (which you can do), or if your worried about them being dodged, how about using your positioning and drops to restrict their movement so they can't get away?
By "dodge," I meant straight up avoid the mines by taking different routes if you're using them to control space. As for the targeting part, again, it takes too much APM and attention to do in a 1s window.
Not really. Hotkey lead mine, see red, double-tap hotkey, click clump.
Your ability to devote APM and attention to your mines should scale pretty nicely with your opponent's ability to deal efficiently with mines on the map. It's a nice self-balancing mechanism.
I would agree if there was some sort of hold-fire mechanism, but there isn't. The reaction window for targeting is extremely small, to the point where even knowing something is coming and being focused on the action, you can still miss it.
On February 10 2013 07:39 Spyridon wrote: Wow... some of the comments here are so ridiculous....
On February 10 2013 06:43 aksfjh wrote: Widow mines suck. Bottom line. They're nothing more than a gimmick play. You can't use them as defense since they have range 5 and have a tendency to either be dodged or sacrificed on 1 unit. Even when your opponent is an idiot and a+moves into the mine(s), the AI tends to create a line of units in SC2, reducing the effectiveness of mines a TON. Their only use is to use them offensively into mineral lines (which is better done with hellbats) or attempt some suicidal burrow during an engagement (which is wasted APM). Bad unit, bad design.
That's so far off, but let's say what your saying is true for a second. How about using your ability to choose the Mines target (which you can do), or if your worried about them being dodged, how about using your positioning and drops to restrict their movement so they can't get away?
By "dodge," I meant straight up avoid the mines by taking different routes if you're using them to control space. As for the targeting part, again, it takes too much APM and attention to do in a 1s window.
Not really. Hotkey lead mine, see red, double-tap hotkey, click clump.
Your ability to devote APM and attention to your mines should scale pretty nicely with your opponent's ability to deal efficiently with mines on the map. It's a nice self-balancing mechanism.
I would agree if there was some sort of hold-fire mechanism, but there isn't. The reaction window for targeting is extremely small, to the point where even knowing something is coming and being focused on the action, you can still miss it.
Yup! Ditto for avoiding full widow mine splash, though, if there's a lot of other action going on. So it comes down to who's the better player. Sounds like a great system to me!
On February 10 2013 08:42 darkscream wrote: The thing is... Widow mines give about as much as you put into them.
Yes, if you just siege them up like a tank, people will bait a shot and then run past them. But that's only if they know they are there. The upgrade which lets them burrow instantly is very very very strong in the late game, because if you are consistent and tricky with moving them around, it can be a real nightmare to attack into. Keep in mind just having mines at all demands detection from your opponent - not an insignificant cost.
Widow mines are the sort of unit that really reward multitasking. If you can look right at them in the main engagement sure, they can be out micro'd. But the more spread out they are, the more APM they demand from your opponent to deal with, and it's a disproportionate amount compared to you setting them up. I've faced terran players who will literally try to drop/runby a widowmine into every base I have as they push out with their main army - it's a huge pain in the ass distraction because you can't just a-move in their direction like a bio drop, and they're VERY easy to lose track of in a hectic game just like DTs or burrowed infestors would be.
You can also use them not to defend an attack, but to flank an incoming attack, so as you force their retreat they get bombed (usually detection will be in front, not behind). I think they have a lot of really sick tactical uses, especially if you consider them as a tax on your opponent's attention span more than a sick pew-pew missle launcher. The simplest way to use them is to defend bases or accompany a big army as you move out, but I suspect we will see some very sick and painful tactical plays in the future when a skilled & korean harassment-oriented terran looks into them further for us.
Bio/Mine drops are even stronger because if you don't clean it up fast, you can lose a hatchery or tech building, and still have a good risk of losing tons of lings to one or two WM blasts if you aren't really careful.
On February 09 2013 04:10 avilo wrote: I cautioned this at the very start of beta. I said and repeatedly tried to give feedback to blizzard, the widow mine is a flawed unit. It's strong early game-ish but the longer the game goes, the shittier and more non-existent the unit becomes when the higher tech units come into play.
In the first months of beta/release, the widow mine will seem OK, but as players figure out the game and games lengthen into longer macro games, there will 100% be a problem and the unit will be shown to have an extremely flawed design - the main thing being that it costs 2 supply making your army weaker the longer the game goes, and the more of them you have in your army.
The mine also seems extremely OP vs low skill level players, but vs masters level to pro level the mine will end up looking worthless.
Already wrote many posts about this, here and on the pro forums, as well as mentioning it in videos. I'm sure others have as well to an extent, but blizzard does not seem to recognize this as an issue.
The other issue is these don't really work well with a Terran deathball, while all of the other new additions and buffs to Protoss and Zerg actually enhance those lategame deathballs.
Terran is left out in the cold again.
At least you have Hellbats, right? ^^ As long as you have such a solid (and counter-intuitive) counter to Immortals, who's complaining?
So far I've only played a little bit of vsAI and so far widow mines are effective as hell protecting your main and natural. However, once detection is up they effectively become useless. I go about 8, set them up and feel safe - especially against drops. Now I know how to use them effectively I'll be definitely going fast Robo (I'm Protoss) against T and then I'll be using immortals to bait the widow mines and smash them out.
I just transitioned from WoL and I don't fully understand how widow mines work ~ what is this mine dragging technique? and can the splash from detonation damage your own units?
I can't wait to see how the top ESF terrans use them next season
On February 12 2013 00:10 Hammo wrote: So far I've only played a little bit of vsAI and so far widow mines are effective as hell protecting your main and natural. However, once detection is up they effectively become useless. I go about 8, set them up and feel safe - especially against drops. Now I know how to use them effectively I'll be definitely going fast Robo (I'm Protoss) against T and then I'll be using immortals to bait the widow mines and smash them out.
If you can find unprotected mines with your immortals thats great, but if you don't snipe them before they go off they will decimate your 250/100 investment. Widow mines do spell damage.
Widow mines right now are incredibly strong units. They can shut down opponent's movement early in the game until detection. Even with detection, the detector might get blown up by the widow mines so more babysitting for the opponent. The defense of the widow mines combine with units or stationary defense is so amazing in the early, mid, and late game.
Don't be surprise when widow mines are nerfed in the future.
I feel widow mines allow for Terran players to really control the mobility of their opponent. It also forces multiple observers once the tech is revealed because, the mines can be dropped in mineral lines at any point in time, placed at future expansions, and to deny drops defensively for Terran. If not observers, it forces cannons. The mines essentially pay for themselves assuming the other player respects them and responds. And if they don't. 1widowmine drop can simply end the game. I feel between widow mines and hellbats, Terran has a lot of potential currently in the harrassment / forcing the opponent into the defensive area.
On February 09 2013 11:13 sagefreke wrote: I don't get all the hate against the WM. The unit has essentially replaced the siege tank at this point in terms of high damage +splash.
Is this sarcasm?
You seem to know exactly why we hate the Widow Mine.
On February 13 2013 02:23 Vlare wrote: I feel widow mines allow for Terran players to really control the mobility of their opponent. It also forces multiple observers once the tech is revealed because, the mines can be dropped in mineral lines at any point in time, placed at future expansions, and to deny drops defensively for Terran. If not observers, it forces cannons. The mines essentially pay for themselves assuming the other player respects them and responds. And if they don't. 1widowmine drop can simply end the game. I feel between widow mines and hellbats, Terran has a lot of potential currently in the harrassment / forcing the opponent into the defensive area.
Really?
One Widow Mine is 2 supply.Cannons built in mineral line are 0!!! Observers still 1 supply and allow enemy to kill the mine free with no damage.
I only one widow mine drop makes you lose the game,you got big problem and its called macro and not WM. The Full Marines Medivac does much more damage.They can move,they can be healed,they can kill workers,units and even Structures!!!They are even cheaper,but nobody cries about this...
Another great strategy to beat a big mine field is dumping 10-20 infested terrans into the field spread out. After the mines trigger rush in with your army. I like the infestor's continued role as a siege breaker.
On February 13 2013 02:23 Vlare wrote: I feel widow mines allow for Terran players to really control the mobility of their opponent. It also forces multiple observers once the tech is revealed because, the mines can be dropped in mineral lines at any point in time, placed at future expansions, and to deny drops defensively for Terran. If not observers, it forces cannons. The mines essentially pay for themselves assuming the other player respects them and responds. And if they don't. 1widowmine drop can simply end the game. I feel between widow mines and hellbats, Terran has a lot of potential currently in the harrassment / forcing the opponent into the defensive area.
Really?
One Widow Mine is 2 supply.Cannons built in mineral line are 0!!! Observers still 1 supply and allow enemy to kill the mine free with no damage.
I only one widow mine drop makes you lose the game,you got big problem and its called macro and not WM. The Full Marines Medivac does much more damage.They can move,they can be healed,they can kill workers,units and even Structures!!!They are even cheaper,but nobody cries about this...
I actually find it much easier to deal with a marine drop. You've got more time to react. You get a message saying you're being attacked, incase you missed mini map, and can pull probes. With widow mine, it's just losing all your probes if you didnt look at minimap. No need to bm my mechanics or ability to play, my macro isn't an issue thanks.
A cannon at each base is 150/base and the forge for another 150 if you didnt have one already. So are you saying Protoss should be opening up super fast forge? Or we should go super fast robo vs gas. Currently a proxy factory makes a widow mine before an observer is on the map even. If we spend all our robo time/gas making observers (minimum 2-3) we won't have any units to deal with the actual push because we're so busy dealing with the potential of mines. I've had T do builds where they proxy widow mine or widow mine drop, then do a double drop. Hellbats in 1base, widow mines in the other. With current speed medivacs, Protoss cant' even kill the medis easilly before they get the drop off in the early'ish game.
I really feel like you don't have a ton of experience with it from the Protoss PoV because it's actually very difficult to deal with against skilled opponents. It's not about supply, it actually has nothing to do with supply. In the early game, protoss doesnt want to be investing resources into cannons. The mines don't let us use our first obs to scout because the first obs has to deal with mines. This means we are essentially in the dark for a very long time. Stalker pressure also becomes obsolete with mines due to them dying in 1shot. Oracles are also out of the question. Current pvt openers vs gas feel like dt rush (coinflip vs mine opener) or robo expand, which isnt very economical. You can open air, but any safe T player will counter that with mines.
On February 09 2013 04:01 Zelniq wrote: Why is it that everyone just thinks of using widow mines as isolated units, away from your army? The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg. Watch the recent day9 dailies on it, xigua vs beastyQT
Because having widow mines with your army makes your suffers from the splash of the mine? The strongest use of the widow mine is that it's gimmicky as hell. Unlike the tank, once the widow mine goes off it's useless for 10 seconds. It's annoying at best.
Widow mine drop and proxy factory mine are good at all skill level the latter slightly worse if they scout it obv. the fact that you can have a cloaked unit in opponents base before six minutes is silly
I think in my honest opinion it's how you use the widow mine rather it be aggressive base strategy or defensive strategy and how it plays into your army comp. It's about what strategy you are going rather than seeing what a pro does and copy what he/she does. That is what i think, this does not mean it's 100% correct, just what i've seen done and the builds i'm using right now.
On February 16 2013 13:10 AlphaDotCom wrote: Widow mine drop and proxy factory mine are good at all skill level the latter slightly worse if they scout it obv. the fact that you can have a cloaked unit in opponents base before six minutes is silly
Using your buildings to maintain vision within your own base aka SimCity is an important component of SC2 early game defense against T. no different than blocking the ramp against 6-pool.
I hope Blizzard will be more open to this "silly" strategy by making it viable. Zerg is already viable due to their vision options of creep, overlords and 50 mineral units to take the watch towers.
Terran's reapers are an expensive option, made much more viable than in WoL due to their speed increase.
IMO: They are good defensive unit to get early game to save gas and allow terran to focus on tech/upgrades.
Besides that, widow mines are pretty much useless as skill increases and as the players progress later into the game. Their only efficient use is early game to harass/defend harass and to hold off a 7-8 minute timing. After that, if you still have a few, you stick the ones you have left to guard mineral lines (Though you cant get too close without friendly fire decimating your scvs). They are pretty much supply sinks once the mid game kicks in. Players either poke with individual units if they know you have WM's, or have some type of detection with their army.
However, that said I would think that at the extremely highest levels, widow mines complement bio armies + medvacs extremely well. Players that are good at moving the mines constantly, maneuvering around the map, keeping their opponent guessing and that are able to respond to small groups of units trying to snipe mines, may be able to get a better return out of them.
It is just another aspect of terran that gets worse as you get better until you cross a massive skill gap.
On February 16 2013 14:02 Rowrin wrote: IMO: They are good defensive unit to get early game to save gas and allow terran to focus on tech/upgrades.
Besides that, widow mines are pretty much useless as skill increases and as the players progress later into the game. Their only efficient use is early game to harass/defend harass and to hold off a 7-8 minute timing. After that, if you still have a few, you stick the ones you have left to guard mineral lines (Though you cant get too close without friendly fire decimating your scvs). They are pretty much supply sinks once the mid game kicks in. Players either poke with individual units if they know you have WM's, or have some type of detection with their army.
However, that said I would think that at the extremely highest levels, widow mines complement bio armies + medvacs extremely well. Players that are good at moving the mines constantly, maneuvering around the map, keeping their opponent guessing and that are able to respond to small groups of units trying to snipe mines, may be able to get a better return out of them.
It is just another aspect of terran that gets worse as you get better until you cross a massive skill gap.
I completely disagree with the last line. Even on a bad day, when using WM/Bio in TvZ I always get good hits with my Widow Mines.
In TvP they're not so good, but in TvZ they're amazing no matter your skill level, and they steadily get better the better you are at positioning your Widow Mine/Bio.
On February 09 2013 04:01 Zelniq wrote: Why is it that everyone just thinks of using widow mines as isolated units, away from your army? The strongest use of the widow mine is and will be when you have an army nearby to protect it, making it so you can't just set it off with 1 zergling, especially with the delay before it activates. Widow mines to support bio or mech armies is what makes it so powerful vs zerg. Watch the recent day9 dailies on it, xigua vs beastyQT
Because having widow mines with your army makes your suffers from the splash of the mine? The strongest use of the widow mine is that it's gimmicky as hell. Unlike the tank, once the widow mine goes off it's useless for 10 seconds. It's annoying at best.
If you spread and kite your Bio and Mines, the splash damage you take is minimal.
Reading a lot of the replies in this thread is very frustrating because it is extremely clear that you simply don't play the beta, or do not understand how unfair the unit is. I don't know if you're just terran players who want something to be unfair or what.
I played STAce in the HotS beta (he played T) and I gotta say his widow mine use was pretty impressive. Basically he was not using them as a buffer to the army, but more as a "finisher". He would set up position near my expo, with tank in range of my hatch and he would drop mines in my main while running some at my third. Basically using them like hellion run-bys but mines are way harder to deal with when you have to defend a push at the same time. He would also leave a few mines, a tank and a bunker at his expo so I couldn't do soft counter attack (I basically had to commit)
You say as people get better mines will be less useful, but I see it as people get better, they will get better at using them . Just like vultures in bw, those are not a 1a unit and require a LOT of practice to be useful.
I personally feel they are easier to use than to play against, but I only played about 50 HotS games so I have no clue yet.
On February 13 2013 02:44 Prime Directive wrote: Another great strategy to beat a big mine field is dumping 10-20 infested terrans into the field spread out. After the mines trigger rush in with your army. I like the infestor's continued role as a siege breaker.
I never thought of that. Added to the list of things to try when i roll zerg
It's a gimmicky unit, a relocating turret with horrible DPS. I dont think it will get used at high level. It's too costly(food wise) for what it can do and there are too many detectors in game to be useful. And not only this, it also looks horrible. If Blizzard really wants Terran to be a good defensive race they should fix the god damn Siege tanks and make Thors useful anti-air units. Thors are so bad they can't even fight mutas for god sake...Thors needs at least Ultra's armor and good AA DPS.
On February 17 2013 03:04 p14c wrote: It's a gimmicky unit, a relocating turret with horrible DPS. I dont think it will get used at high level. It's too costly(food wise) for what it can do and there are too many detectors in game to be useful. And not only this, it also looks horrible. If Blizzard really wants Terran to be a good defensive race they should fix the god damn Siege tanks and make Thors useful anti-air units. Thors are so bad they can't even fight mutas for god sake...Thors needs at least Ultra's armor and good AA DPS.
Not sure if this is a serious post.
You can have Widow Mines in a protoss base before they have detection. Tell me why Terran shouldn't use this? There aren't that many detectors in the game that are available as early as widow mines are. Widow mines are strong both offensively and defensively. I'm not sure how much you ladder, or what your rank is on the ladder. But I promise, once you start playing the high masters/GM terrans, you will realize the potential that widow mines have.
What exactly is gimicky about the unit? It has function all game long.
On February 17 2013 05:55 iky43210 wrote: window mines need a hold/stop attack function
This is really the crux of the issue. Without the ability to counter-micro your opponent, there will be an effective skill cap to the unit.
We're talking about increasing skill here, where it becomes harder (and riskier) to sneak a widow mine into a Protoss base and burrow it before they kill it, and Zergs have the APM to stagger their units before attacking. Yes, somebody can outplay you using the mines creatively, but they can also do that with drops or an all-in.
On February 17 2013 05:55 iky43210 wrote: window mines need a hold/stop attack function
This is really the crux of the issue. Without the ability to counter-micro your opponent, there will be an effective skill cap to the unit.
We're talking about increasing skill here, where it becomes harder (and riskier) to sneak a widow mine into a Protoss base and burrow it before they kill it, and Zergs have the APM to stagger their units before attacking. Yes, somebody can outplay you using the mines creatively, but they can also do that with drops or an all-in.
Every cloaked unit would profit from such a thing. Same for Swarm Hosts spawning locusts or Siege Tanks to prevent premature fire. However, I believe that this just turns the situation around. Right now these non-controllable effects make it possible for a clever/capable opponent to abuse them. With hold fire/spawn etc, it reduces the skillcap for the opponent, while it increases it for yourself.
Also very important to mention in that context. You can control all of them. A cloaked unit can be forced to move instead of attacking, swarm hosts and widow mines can be unburrowed and tanks unsieged. Those mechanism just have a way higher skillcap than a hold fire button and also have other drawbacks. But for widow mines specifically: Drilling Claws and low priority are intented to help out with those drawbacks, allowing for better control through unburrow.
Widow mines will still be strong in high level because even if good player can handle them, he still will be afraid to move army to cerrtain places, so terran can utilize this by some form of kiting, turtling or defending field.
Not that I've actually checked since I tried zerg when I first got the beta (much like WoL I couldn't play them, like at all), but you can hold fire with the swarm hosts can't you?
On February 16 2013 14:02 Rowrin wrote: IMO: They are good defensive unit to get early game to save gas and allow terran to focus on tech/upgrades.
Besides that, widow mines are pretty much useless as skill increases and as the players progress later into the game. Their only efficient use is early game to harass/defend harass and to hold off a 7-8 minute timing. After that, if you still have a few, you stick the ones you have left to guard mineral lines (Though you cant get too close without friendly fire decimating your scvs). They are pretty much supply sinks once the mid game kicks in. Players either poke with individual units if they know you have WM's, or have some type of detection with their army.
However, that said I would think that at the extremely highest levels, widow mines complement bio armies + medvacs extremely well. Players that are good at moving the mines constantly, maneuvering around the map, keeping their opponent guessing and that are able to respond to small groups of units trying to snipe mines, may be able to get a better return out of them.
It is just another aspect of terran that gets worse as you get better until you cross a massive skill gap.
Im not good but widow-mine tank vs. P is absolutely sick. My opponents can generally not just lose units to the widowmines due to lack of control/detection, but they are great for protecting tanks. It really isn't that difficult, just put them right in front of the tanks
People talking about how it'd be hard to trigger the widow mine with lings if the Terran plays right got me thinking. What if the Zerg used something else to trigger them? Something that is typically used for some thing completely different? Something that recently got a seemingly useless early game buff. Overlords with speed.
Make 6 or so extra Overlords with speed send them in from different directions to help prevent the marines from focusing them down before they are in the widow mines range. Now I know that's rather more expensive then lings but it's far less expensive then losing your entire army no? Also it's not uncommon for even high level pros to have a few hundred extra minerals at times. A possible weakness would be It'd be entirely possible for the Terran to kill them all if he had enough marines might mean using the overlords when he's tank heavy and lings when he's marine heavy or some such. What do you think would it be worth it to use Overlords like that I mean more so then it is at the moment sometimes it happens but it seems almost more of a after thought and only one at a time then a strategy meant specifically to counter low to mid numbers of widow mines.
On February 18 2013 04:22 magicallypuzzled wrote: People talking about how it'd be hard to trigger the widow mine with lings if the Terran plays right got me thinking. What if the Zerg used something else to trigger them? Something that is typically used for some thing completely different? Something that recently got a seemingly useless early game buff. Overlords with speed.
Make 6 or so extra Overlords with speed send them in from different directions to help prevent the marines from focusing them down before they are in the widow mines range. Now I know that's rather more expensive then lings but it's far less expensive then losing your entire army no? Also it's not uncommon for even high level pros to have a few hundred extra minerals at times. A possible weakness would be It'd be entirely possible for the Terran to kill them all if he had enough marines might mean using the overlords when he's tank heavy and lings when he's marine heavy or some such. What do you think would it be worth it to use Overlords like that I mean more so then it is at the moment sometimes it happens but it seems almost more of a after thought and only one at a time then a strategy meant specifically to counter low to mid numbers of widow mines.
Because that costs 700/100 . That's a lot of ling/drone/queen and whatever else have you. Maybe in the later game when you've got a bank, sure. But in the early-midgame. You can't make that sink. You're better off sending in 1ling, or a burrowed roach or a changeling if those work.
On February 18 2013 04:22 magicallypuzzled wrote: People talking about how it'd be hard to trigger the widow mine with lings if the Terran plays right got me thinking. What if the Zerg used something else to trigger them? Something that is typically used for some thing completely different? Something that recently got a seemingly useless early game buff. Overlords with speed.
Make 6 or so extra Overlords with speed send them in from different directions to help prevent the marines from focusing them down before they are in the widow mines range. Now I know that's rather more expensive then lings but it's far less expensive then losing your entire army no? Also it's not uncommon for even high level pros to have a few hundred extra minerals at times. A possible weakness would be It'd be entirely possible for the Terran to kill them all if he had enough marines might mean using the overlords when he's tank heavy and lings when he's marine heavy or some such. What do you think would it be worth it to use Overlords like that I mean more so then it is at the moment sometimes it happens but it seems almost more of a after thought and only one at a time then a strategy meant specifically to counter low to mid numbers of widow mines.
Because that costs 700/100 . That's a lot of ling/drone/queen and whatever else have you. Maybe in the later game when you've got a bank, sure. But in the early-midgame. You can't make that sink. You're better off sending in 1ling, or a burrowed roach or a changeling if those work.
too an extent it depends on how all in the terran is doesn't it? if it's basically just pressure then maybe you would have to find a different way of dealing with it I am not trying to say its an all situations fix but it might have it's place right?
On February 18 2013 04:30 SoFrOsTy wrote: Good terrain unburrow before the bait then reburrow when zerg moves in. With one second burrow time it works great.
with banelings and good creep spread I would think that would be rather difficult to pull off with out getting your widow mines killed.
On February 18 2013 04:22 magicallypuzzled wrote: People talking about how it'd be hard to trigger the widow mine with lings if the Terran plays right got me thinking. What if the Zerg used something else to trigger them? Something that is typically used for some thing completely different? Something that recently got a seemingly useless early game buff. Overlords with speed.
Make 6 or so extra Overlords with speed send them in from different directions to help prevent the marines from focusing them down before they are in the widow mines range. Now I know that's rather more expensive then lings but it's far less expensive then losing your entire army no? Also it's not uncommon for even high level pros to have a few hundred extra minerals at times. A possible weakness would be It'd be entirely possible for the Terran to kill them all if he had enough marines might mean using the overlords when he's tank heavy and lings when he's marine heavy or some such. What do you think would it be worth it to use Overlords like that I mean more so then it is at the moment sometimes it happens but it seems almost more of a after thought and only one at a time then a strategy meant specifically to counter low to mid numbers of widow mines.
Because that costs 700/100 . That's a lot of ling/drone/queen and whatever else have you. Maybe in the later game when you've got a bank, sure. But in the early-midgame. You can't make that sink. You're better off sending in 1ling, or a burrowed roach or a changeling if those work.
too an extent it depends on how all in the terran is doesn't it? if it's basically just pressure then maybe you would have to find a different way of dealing with it I am not trying to say its an all situations fix but it might have it's place right?
If you're being all in'd maybe. It really depends on the specific situation. But I don't think it will ever become a staple. It's one of those cute things you see sometimes
On February 18 2013 04:22 magicallypuzzled wrote: People talking about how it'd be hard to trigger the widow mine with lings if the Terran plays right got me thinking. What if the Zerg used something else to trigger them? Something that is typically used for some thing completely different? Something that recently got a seemingly useless early game buff. Overlords with speed.
Make 6 or so extra Overlords with speed send them in from different directions to help prevent the marines from focusing them down before they are in the widow mines range. Now I know that's rather more expensive then lings but it's far less expensive then losing your entire army no? Also it's not uncommon for even high level pros to have a few hundred extra minerals at times. A possible weakness would be It'd be entirely possible for the Terran to kill them all if he had enough marines might mean using the overlords when he's tank heavy and lings when he's marine heavy or some such. What do you think would it be worth it to use Overlords like that I mean more so then it is at the moment sometimes it happens but it seems almost more of a after thought and only one at a time then a strategy meant specifically to counter low to mid numbers of widow mines.
Because that costs 700/100 . That's a lot of ling/drone/queen and whatever else have you. Maybe in the later game when you've got a bank, sure. But in the early-midgame. You can't make that sink. You're better off sending in 1ling, or a burrowed roach or a changeling if those work.
too an extent it depends on how all in the terran is doesn't it? if it's basically just pressure then maybe you would have to find a different way of dealing with it I am not trying to say its an all situations fix but it might have it's place right?
If you're being all in'd maybe. It really depends on the specific situation. But I don't think it will ever become a staple. It's one of those cute things you see sometimes
What I am thinking is Zergs get the 100/100 for overlord speed earlier then they usually would just as a precaution and then if they scout a situation where it'd be useful. They probably will have the time to make the extra overlords before the attack actually hits. This also lets you tailor it to how ever many mines the terran actually has. That way the cost isn't too prohibitive before hand but it is fairly easy to make the required costs latter on if they need it. Also if the Zerg is ahead like they'll want to be economy wise then the Zerg can actually come out better off maybe?
WM/Tank is real good vs Protoss... if P is shooting your mines, scan... your viking will blow up the obs and you can take another base. You just have to defend any two base P and you're golden.
Pro players will adapt to it for sure. I've even see zergs researching the early overlord speed just to have a few overlords bait out a few widow mine shots.
I actually think it gets stronger depending on who is using it. The unit has so much utility in it, it can be offensive and defensive.
The only issue is that it is currently even better than tanks for zoning and therefore overlapping the roles slightly
The amount of multi tasking needed to get rid of widow mines drop in late game is really high, while traditionally terran has to micro the units for the units, for mines you are just burrowing. Zerg has to defend it by either already have spores and spines (that would require no attention at all) If not, they will need to morph/find the overseer, move the drones away and wait for the overseer to come and kill it off.
With the medivac speed boost and this different style of drops, terran has a really powerful multi prone drop style, taxing the multi tasking of the opponent heavily
I do believe that because of, depending on the situation of course, how the zerg can a-move their entire army in for an attack, the WMs force zergs to engage in a more creative way. You can't just roll everything in and cast fungles anymore(at least at my level).
Not that I've actually checked since I tried zerg when I first got the beta (much like WoL I couldn't play them, like at all), but you can hold fire with the swarm hosts can't you?
Yes. And you can hold position with mines too, but you have to actively do it with mines (1 click every second or so), but with swarm hosts its a toggle.
On February 18 2013 04:30 SoFrOsTy wrote: Good terrain unburrow before the bait then reburrow when zerg moves in. With one second burrow time it works great.
with banelings and good creep spread I would think that would be rather difficult to pull off with out getting your widow mines killed.
So in the early game the zerg has really good creep spread, expansions, a 100/100 upgrade (just in case) banelings and hundreds of extra minerals on units that arent fighting units just to handle a few widow mines? Those same widow mines that can be unburrowed and retreated if they see the OL's coming? Widow mines arent way out in front, they are near their army.
On February 25 2013 23:34 EyesOnMe wrote:
Poll: Do you think that WM becomes weaker as players' skill increases?
No (31)
65%
Yes (17)
35%
48 total votes
Your vote: Do you think that WM becomes weaker as players' skill increases?
When I used them, I literally stagger them from the beginning of my ramp from the nat on maps like Daybreak, to the opposing middle base that's exposed. This way, I can run my army back while stutter-stepping, and it just adds pain to the army that I'm stuttering against. I have completely exchanged tanks for widow mines, unless it's something like mass roach
The widow mine will always be at least a "I force you to spend 50 of your APM to scout for it which maybe I don't even have while I can do whatever I want with those APM"-unit.
On February 18 2013 04:30 SoFrOsTy wrote: Good terrain unburrow before the bait then reburrow when zerg moves in. With one second burrow time it works great.
with banelings and good creep spread I would think that would be rather difficult to pull off with out getting your widow mines killed.
So in the early game the zerg has really good creep spread, expansions, a 100/100 upgrade (just in case) banelings and hundreds of extra minerals on units that arent fighting units just to handle a few widow mines? Those same widow mines that can be unburrowed and retreated if they see the OL's coming? Widow mines arent way out in front, they are near their army.
They become stronger the better player you are, obviously. That's just a given corollary. It's very difficult trying to beat a tank/WM/thor siege when given only observers or oracles.
Title is correct. They tend to become weaker in that you have to outplay your opponent to get the full effect, because fundamentally it's a unit that if countered becomes a free donation.
EPT
. Just like vultures in bw, those are not a 1a unit and require a LOT of practice to be useful. 
